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Native Sovereignty, treaties and land - Domestic Policy, Foreign Policy, both, neither, WTF,O???

Started by Snargash Moonclaw, January 24, 2009, 02:53:37 AM

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Stargate525

Quote from: khyron1144Or the white folks could go back to Europe.
Sorry, no.

My family has been living here for over three hundred years now. I've got just as much right to it as any modern Indian.

Quote from: Elemental_ElfI think he means property rights and a general outlook of traditional western and traditional native outlooks.
Indeed I was, especially during the first contact situations. For the most part, they were tribal, pre-industrial, in many cases pre-metalworking. In many respects of the path western civilization took, they were several hundred to a few thousand years behind.
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Llum

Quote from: Stargate525My family has been living here for over three hundred years now. I've got just as much right to it as any modern Indian.

If were going by time, you're a few thousand years behind :P

I am curious though how do you define a "modern" native american?

khyron1144

Quote from: Stargate525My family has been living here for over three hundred years now. I've got just as much right to it as any modern Indian.



And the Mexican family that snuck across the border a year ago has as much right to be here as you do, yes?

Or is right to occupancy by illegal immigration only applicable if it's a matter of generations?

My cat has pretty much scent marked the whole house, doing that headbutting thing that cats do.  From his perspective, I'm living in his house.  
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Elemental_Elf

Quote from: khyron1144
Quote from: Stargate525My family has been living here for over three hundred years now. I've got just as much right to it as any modern Indian.



And the Mexican family that snuck across the border a year ago has as much right to be here as you do, yes?

Or is right to occupancy by illegal immigration only applicable if it's a matter of generations?

My cat has pretty much scent marked the whole house, doing that headbutting thing that cats do.  From his perspective, I'm living in his house.  

You do know baits like these are what make discussions on topics just like these so very difficult, right?

Polycarp

...and this is more or less how the Israeli-Palestinian conflict got started.
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Elemental_Elf

Quote from: Polycarp!...and this is more or less how the Israeli-Palestinian conflict got started.

Which is why 'who was here first' is never a good starting point for anything dealing with issues like these.  :)

khyron1144

Quote from: Elemental_ElfYou do know baits like these are what make discussions on topics just like these so very difficult, right?


You're right.  It was semi-deliberate flame-baiting and I should be above that.  I would like a serious answer to the first question though.

What's a Minmei and what are its ballistic capabilities?

According to the Unitarian Jihad I'm Brother Nail Gun of Quiet Reflection


My campaign is Terra
Please post in the discussion thread.

Nomadic

Quote from: khyron1144
Quote from: NomadicI personally think the tribes should just join everyone else and become normal Americans. Was manifest destiny wrong, most certainly. However, that is something that there is no going back on (at least not without creating another series of ongoing problems). This cycle of paying the tribes money for something done over a lifetime ago which just goes back into propping up a system that creates these shanty towns needs to stop. It is just my personal opinion that there will never be a solution to this until the tribes join the rest of us.

Or the white folks could go back to Europe.

Firstly those of us that were born here are as much 'Native' American as the tribes. Secondly many of us "white folks" have Native American blood in us. Who is to decide where the cut off point is? As to the other point, I view rights to territory as generational. A child born and raised in America is an American. They are not a Mexican, nor a European, nor anything else. If they were born in Mexico then they are Mexican, when they gain their citizenship they become an American (and until they do they have no rights accept those pointed out in international law... but that's another can of worms).

Biohazard

On a related note, I had thought I heard that Canada (or parts of) were going to be passing a law that required you to be so many parts Native American in order to receive the monthly band check. Not really a stab at Native Americans themselves, but people who have less and less of genes but are still applying for the payments. Anyone know anymore about it?

Llum

Quote from: BiohazardOn a related note, I had thought I heard that Canada (or parts of) were going to be passing a law that required you to be so many parts Native American in order to receive the monthly band check. Not really a stab at Native Americans themselves, but people who have less and less of genes but are still applying for the payments. Anyone know anymore about it?

The government decides ~~. In Canada to still be considered a "native american" you have to be within 5 generations of a "pureblood" native american.

I don't know how it is in the states but in Canada we have a really really strong Metis movement. I know a lot of people who are "part" native american identify as Metis more then anything.

I would like to not while Khyron did have a kind-of flame-baiting post, he does raise a good point.

Nomadic

Quote from: BiohazardOn a related note, I had thought I heard that Canada (or parts of) were going to be passing a law that required you to be so many parts Native American in order to receive the monthly band check. Not really a stab at Native Americans themselves, but people who have less and less of genes but are still applying for the payments. Anyone know anymore about it?

Well I do know that the US government has a cutoff point for that. It does make sense too as if they accepted anyone with any amount of Native American blood in them it could get ridiculous really fast.

And llum, if the cutoff point decides who is and isn't entitled to live here then I guess they will be shipping me back to Scotland where my family is from but where I know nobody, don't know the local laws, and will be called an American by everyone else there. Meanwhile my dad would get to stay here because he does meet these arbitrary criteria. Frankly, using the check cutoff point to decide who deserves the land is silly. Everyone born here has the right to live here, even those not born here have the right to apply to earn that right.

Llum

Oh I'm not disputing that (though I would love it if they deported my father :P )

Personally I would say as long as you have a citizenship you should be good no matter what.

SDragon

Quote from: LlumThe government decides ~~. In Canada to still be considered a "native american" you have to be within 5 generations of a "pureblood" native american.

How does the government define "pureblood"? can trace back exclusive Native American heritage to... pre-18th century? pre-13th century? pre-9th century? the great Ice Age Migration?
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Stargate525

Quote from: Llum"pureblood" means you live on a reserve.
Which is idiotic.

There are people who have no Native blood at all on reserves (teachers, doctors, etc.), and full-blooded Natives who don't.
My Setting: Dilandri, The World of Five
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