Xiluh

[SDragon]

It all looks pretty cool. Especially that legendary swarm monster you mentioned.

Also can't wait to read more about the Seven Invasions. That's one of the more intriguing parts. Do the people of Xiluh have any written or verbal tales about the invaders?

the Seven Invasions were recent history, but as time goes on, more details become revealed; the first couple of decades after the four year Raging were very secretive.

[limetom]

I orginally had this as a nitpick, but after going through everything again, it is much more than just that.  All the information in your setting is scattered around.  I would suggest that you try to gather it all together into one place which is convienient for you.  I found that I had to have everything open in tabs in Firefox, and I had to go back and forth a couple of times to find information.  You have some good stuff, its just too scattered around to make heads or tails of it without some serious digging.

My initial comments on this are going to be really nitpicky, but that's just how I am.  Apologies in advance, I'm not trying to be mean, just hiting some points that are not really related to the setting itself.

I wish I could put this in nicer terms, but I can't.  All the nested spoilers really just get on my nerves.  I feel that it makes the thread seem empty.  My opinion on spoilers are for information that one can skip over without much consequence.  These, however, contian your whole setting.  You probably like doing things like that, so do what you feel like, but it would look a lot more polished (to me, of course) if spoilers were used sparingly.  Just me being me I guess.

Lastly (for the knitpicks), and this is probably the most kintpicky, it would look a little more polished if you added a whole line in between paragraphs and used capitalization.  You have good stuff here, it just doesn't look that well done (no offense meant).  Again, this is just me being me.

On to an actual review of the setting...

You have Clerics functioning as Shamans, and you seemed to have started the mythos for the setting, but you haven't really developed it much.  Are you going with a strictly animistic or strictly polytheistic system for your divinities, or some combination of both?

Why, specifically did you drop some of the things that you did?  Especially the paladin.  I could see a paladin working in a pseudo-Meso-American setting, especially the alignment-variant paladins.

I'm confused about the dates on the timeline, especially when you get to the Third Age, which lists two dates in this format: xta - y; where x and y are dates.  What is "ta"?  Does the second date represent another calender system?  This just plain confused me.

Overall, what you have is good, but its really too spread out to easily get through all of it, and could be just a little more polished.  Again, I wasn't trying to be an ass with all the knitpicks, its just that they would, in my opinion, make it seem done a lot better.

[snakefing]

Speaking of mythos, have you read the Popol Vuh? I've started (my boys are native Central Americans so it is more than casual interest), but haven't got too far. It might be a help to inspire some of the flavor of Central American mythos. Of course, Quiche isn't exactly Mayan, but it is the same neck of the woods.

[Lmns Crn]

Okay, I'm going to be putting Xiluh under the microscope this week. What things do you want me to focus on? What sorts of things are new since my last big review, and what sorts of things do you really want commented on the most?

[SDragon]

Speaking of mythos, have you read the Popol Vuh? I've started (my boys are native Central Americans so it is more than casual interest), but haven't got too far. It might be a help to inspire some of the flavor of Central American mythos. Of course, Quiche isn't exactly Mayan, but it is the same neck of the woods.

ive taken looks here and there, but never any major front-to-back type reading. actually, the myth i have up is a blend of the story of the hero twins descent to, and ascent from xibulba, and the egyptian story of the contestings of Horus and Set. i do intend to read it further for more inspiration, but im trying to stay away from keeping it too based on real world mesomaerica.

[SDragon]

I orginally had this as a nitpick, but after going through everything again, it is much more than just that.  All the information in your setting is scattered around.  I would suggest that you try to gather it all together into one place which is convienient for you.  I found that I had to have everything open in tabs in Firefox, and I had to go back and forth a couple of times to find information.  You have some good stuff, its just too scattered around to make heads or tails of it without some serious digging.

ill keep that in mind. thanks for the advice :)

one thing ive never understood is, why would (relatively speaking) highly divine beings ask mere mortals to toil and labor, doing hard work that would come easily to the gods? you dont need dieties and demigods to know that Pelor is more then powerful enough to kill off the level 7 evil rogue that the pally is being asked to take care of.[/spoiler]

I'm confused about the dates on the timeline, especially when you get to the Third Age, which lists two dates in this format: xta - y; where x and y are dates.  What is "ta"?  Does the second date represent another calender system?  This just plain confused me.

Overall, what you have is good, but its really too spread out to easily get through all of it, and could be just a little more polished.  Again, I wasn't trying to be an ass with all the knitpicks, its just that they would, in my opinion, make it seem done a lot better.

again, no problems. as i said, having weak points shown is a good way to improve. since most of the comments were about my formatting, you can see thats a weak point of mine.

[SDragon]

Okay, I'm going to be putting Xiluh under the microscope this week. What things do you want me to focus on? What sorts of things are new since my last big review, and what sorts of things do you really want commented on the most?

focus on anything you wish; as the timeline is the newest addition, that might be a good place to start. the timeline doesnt contain this yet, but im about to add the beginnings of a government.

[SDragon]

said beginnings of said government are in place.

when mages are the religious leaders, what, exactly, is the difference between a theocracy and a magocracy?

[Xeviat]

sdragon, I want to tell you again that I really enjoy this setting. I do think a martial priest would be nice; considering how warlike and devout the aztecs were, such an archetype seems fitting. Look at the Sohei from OA, as it might suit your needs without having to use something homebrewed.

Since the coatls are sacred, they could even be seen as coatle warriors. They'd favor feathered armor, use feather plumed spears ...

[Xeviat]

said beginnings of said government are in place.

when mages are the religious leaders, what, exactly, is the difference between a theocracy and a magocracy?

A theocracy will have rules handed down from the divine through their agents; a magocracy will have rules handed down from the magi (and if they are religious leaders, it will be said to come from the gods). To the ley folk, there's no difference, but for you, a magocracy seems more corruptable in a fantastic world where the gods actually communicate.

Now, if dictates are determined through divination and not true communication with the gods, then the magi could actually be right.

[SDragon]

sdragon, I want to tell you again that I really enjoy this setting. I do think a martial priest would be nice; considering how warlike and devout the aztecs were, such an archetype seems fitting. Look at the Sohei from OA, as it might suit your needs without having to use something homebrewed.

Since the coatls are sacred, they could even be seen as coatle warriors. They'd favor feathered armor, use feather plumed spears ...

i actually considered using the sohei, but in the slim chance that i decide i might possibly want this published someday, i would much rather have OGL material then having to refer to a ton of product identity books. the shaman class from OA would be a nice replacement for core cleric, too.
(note: if anybody knows an OGL source for either of these archtypes, please feel free to PM me)

as for the couatl, theyre legendary then sacred; while they are powerful ancient figures, it is accepted that there is little, if any, religious connections to them.
that said, expanding the exotic weapons and special materials lists is something i plan on having plenty of fun with, so dont rule out your plumed spear quite yet :)

[Lmns Crn]

Interesting new developments. This setting has fleshed out considerably since the last time I looked it over.

About the creation myth: I'm a little confused about the nature of the sun/moon relationship. Did the moon get upset about the sun's knowledge of flight because he was tired of having all his secrets discovered, and wanted to finally have something all his own? The story is intriguing, but I think it could be inproved by a little clarification of motives.

About the "fallout" from your creation myth: the current place and condition of the sun and moon. Does it take into account things that we earthlings can actually observe about the sun and the moon (specifically, the moon's changing phases, and its changing daily schedule through the sky?) You say that the moon is unwhole because its heart was removed, and that Jaguar placed them in the sky so they would not be together. Does this mean that Xiluh's moon does not change phases like our own moon does (because a full moon wouldn't be unwhole), and that Xiluh's moon doesn't rise and set at different times through the month (because our own moon is frequently in the sky at the same time as the sun.)

Does Xiluh have solar eclipses? If so, what religious significance do they have?

Also, about the Jaguar and Eagle. If the sun and moon are the "deities" of Xiluh, what are these animal spirits? From your story, they seem to be clearly wiser and more powerful than the sun and moon. Do they have any direct effect on Xiluh's people or religion, or are they treated more along the lines of impartial or unfeeling cosmic forces?

What I really want to hear the most about right now is the first ones/yuma. I take it the angle you are going for with this race is downfall, right? They ruled the world before anyone else, then they were cast down and became a slave race. My, how the mighty have fallen.

But that's really not enough to satisfy my curiosity. Tell me more about them! Is there a physiological difference between the first ones and the yuma, or did the name change just signify their fall from power? What does the word "yuma" mean? I assume the timeline entry "perversion of First Ones into yuma / Destruction of remaining First Ones" is highly significant, but there's not enough detail there for me to really see what it means.

What do modern yuma think of their situation? Do they lament the loss of their old empire? Do they even know about their glorious history as rulers of the world?

What was the empire of the first ones like? Were they wise? Selfish? Cunning? Benevolent? Destructive? Insane? Why and how did their empire fall apart? Was their own corruption and decadence their downfall? Did enemies band together and cast them down from the seat of power (and if so, what inspired this rebellion or invasion?) Did the gods themselves find disfavor with the first ones and smite them?

I feel like the yuma have an incredible amount of potential; their story really appeals to me. I would be interested to hear more about them.

[SDragon]

Interesting new developments. This setting has fleshed out considerably since the last time I looked it over.

About the creation myth: I'm a little confused about the nature of the sun/moon relationship. Did the moon get upset about the sun's knowledge of flight because he was tired of having all his secrets discovered, and wanted to finally have something all his own? The story is intriguing, but I think it could be inproved by a little clarification of motives.[/quote]About the "fallout" from your creation myth: the current place and condition of the sun and moon. Does it take into account things that we earthlings can actually observe about the sun and the moon (specifically, the moon's changing phases, and its changing daily schedule through the sky?) You say that the moon is unwhole because its heart was removed, and that Jaguar placed them in the sky so they would not be together. Does this mean that Xiluh's moon does not change phases like our own moon does (because a full moon wouldn't be unwhole), and that Xiluh's moon doesn't rise and set at different times through the month (because our own moon is frequently in the sky at the same time as the sun.)

Does Xiluh have solar eclipses? If so, what religious significance do they have?[/quote]Also, about the Jaguar and Eagle. If the sun and moon are the "deities" of Xiluh, what are these animal spirits? From your story, they seem to be clearly wiser and more powerful than the sun and moon. Do they have any direct effect on Xiluh's people or religion, or are they treated more along the lines of impartial or unfeeling cosmic forces?[/quote]What I really want to hear the most about right now is the first ones/yuma. I take it the angle you are going for with this race is downfall, right? They ruled the world before anyone else, then they were cast down and became a slave race. My, how the mighty have fallen.[/quote]But that's really not enough to satisfy my curiosity. Tell me more about them! Is there a physiological difference between the first ones and the yuma, or did the name change just signify their fall from power? What does the word "yuma" mean? I assume the timeline entry "perversion of First Ones into yuma / Destruction of remaining First Ones" is highly significant, but there's not enough detail there for me to really see what it means.[/quote]What do modern yuma think of their situation? Do they lament the loss of their old empire? Do they even know about their glorious history as rulers of the world?[/quote]What was the empire of the first ones like? Were they wise? Selfish? Cunning? Benevolent? Destructive? Insane? Why and how did their empire fall apart? Was their own corruption and decadence their downfall? Did enemies band together and cast them down from the seat of power (and if so, what inspired this rebellion or invasion?) Did the gods themselves find disfavor with the first ones and smite them?[/quote]I feel like the yuma have an incredible amount of potential; their story really appeals to me. I would be interested to hear more about them.
[/quote]

again, thank you. hopefully this did a decent job of answering your questions. however, you can always feel free to come up with more.

[Lmns Crn]

A few responses to your responses:

on moon phases- actually, Moon's "unwholeness" is precisely why moon phases exist in the first place. keep in mind, a "whole", or full moon only happens once every twenty-eight days, even in our world. assuming night and day were consistantly divided equally, that would mean the moon is only whole 1/56 of the time, 29/56 of the time the moon is not visible, and 26/56 of the time, the moon is unwhole. thats just based on a crude approximation of our lunar calander.

as i have it now, the three animal spirits are on equal footing as far as power goes; everything is the sum of their creations, no matter how many times removed. they are treated in two opposing manners, almost simultaneously: one the one hand, they are very abstract forces and elements of nature and existance, and on the other hand, they are also very concrete, permeating beings. Eagle, for example, is the abstract force that makes up the sky, but at the same time, Eagle is every eagle ever to exist, simply because eagles are Eagle.[/quote]this is something i am having a hard time with, however, because that question almost seems to warrant the same type of answer as "what does turtle mean?" would; you can describe, and even define what a Yuma is, but you cant neccessarily give meaning to the word "Yuma", itself.[/quote]Yuma are, essentially, a devolved version of the First-ones. with heavy divine influence, First-ones were out of the picture very fast.... the empire of the First-ones was incredibly totalitarian. political efforts were split almost entirely amongst expanding and sustaining. the gods eventually decided enough was enough, and toppled the empire and the race far enough to allow the rest of Xiluh to do what they could.[/quote]truly[/i] sold me on the setting. They're high quality.

[SDragon]

(please note that this fits in with a poetential future model of the pantheon, and not the current model)

Sun is that which is fire; that which can be felt, but not touched.

Moon is that which is water; that which can be pierced, but not harmed.

Eagle is that which is air; that which can move you, but cannot be moved.

Snake is that which is ground; that which can can support, but cannot be supported.

Jaguar is that which is center; that which surrounds, but is surrounded.
[/spoiler]

this is something i am having a hard time with, however, because that question almost seems to warrant the same type of answer as "what does turtle mean?" would; you can describe, and even define what a Yuma is, but you cant neccessarily give meaning to the word "Yuma", itself.

i will add, however, that some words can have a meaning, along with a definition, and descriptions of individual examples. automobile, for example, means a vehicle that is mobile, automatically. a small spattering of words with linguistic meanings may show up in time, but unless otherwisee stated, words wont have a specific meaning.

Yuma are, essentially, a devolved version of the First-ones. with heavy divine influence, First-ones were out of the picture very fast.... the empire of the First-ones was incredibly totalitarian. political efforts were split almost entirely amongst expanding and sustaining. the gods eventually decided enough was enough, and toppled the empire and the race far enough to allow the rest of Xiluh to do what they could.

in a nutshell, yes.

Such a tragic story!

You know I've been reading Xiluh for quite a while now, and I've appreciated the unique flavor it has. But the Yuma have truly sold me on the setting. They're high quality.

thank you. i have had great fun weaving what would have otherwise been an ugly lump into the setting. :)