Need help with Mongol-themed Orc nation.

[Garanth]

[spoiler=The Orük Steppe]
The Orük Steppe   

On a hilly plateau amongst the *Still Unnamed Western Mountains* lies the infamous Orük Steppe, home to the barbaric Orük people who give the region its name.

The Steppe is an arid, inhospitable wasteland, utterly unsuitable for any sort of agriculture and resistant to human habitation. This is likely the reason that the Orüks have been left unmolested for so long. That, or that no civilized nation has felt inclined to spare the incredible resources it would take to eradicate the warrior tribes from their homeland.

Legends say that the Orük people were once humans that were bred by the Dragons of *Westeria* to be shock troops. They are noticeably larger than humans, standing a head taller than most humans, and are much more thickly muscled. Their faces are broad, foreheads sloping, and cheek and brow bones much more prominent. Orüks also have incisors that extend like tusks, lending them a fierce, feral appearance.

Orük political culture is violent and fragmented. Each orük belongs to a familial tribal unit, governed by the dominant male of the tribe. Larger groups called clans are then made up of a collection of connected tribes that swear fealty to a ruler known as a Khan. There are nine such clans that roam the Steppe, with some being substantially more power and dominating the lesser clans. This power is fleeting, however, as several small clans may temporarily band together to break the back of a larger mutual enemy. There have been a handful of times in history where a single Khan has been able to unite all the clans under a single banner, to be dubbed the Khagan, or Khan of Khans. The Orüks have then swept out of the steppe, cutting swaths of destruction through neighbouring lands. Each time it has taken the conjoined effort of several civilized nations to repel the invaders. Even then, it has often taken the untimely demise of the Khagan or of dissention fragmenting his tenuous alliance before the orük hordes were driven back.
[/spoiler]

A little backstory on my world first for those interested. The entire world was once ruled by dragons, who took great delight in meticulously breeding their many enslaved races into the perfect servants for a variety of tasks. They bred mostly beasts into different beasts of burden (most of which are now extinct), though they became particularly fond of humans, and spawned a great many races by twisting them, and adding in the blood of other creatures (thus Yuan-ti, lizardmen, dragonborn, etc).

The Oruks (orcs) were one of these. Bred for combat, they were the perfect warriors. Of course, without their Draconic masters to discipline them they quickly descended into the barbaric tribal state they now are.

Now, for what I need help with. I have a vision of the Oruks being a nomadic, tribal peoples inspired by the fierce nomads of the central asian steppe (namely Huns and Mongols). They'll live primarily off the herds they drive with them, with a very little harvesting of wild plants native to the steppe.

What i'm not sure of, is how exactly that would work. Would they *need* to trade with their neighbours for proper sustenance? Would an arid grassland be enough to sustain a relatively small population of lumbering orcs?

Also, I can't see them riding horses in the way the huns or mongols did. Worgs are somewhat cliche, though would likely work much better. Would orcs riding bulls perhaps be kind of silly? It would only make sense that they would use the females for their milk and the males as mounts, though I don't know how good of a mount a bull would make...

Any feedback, ideas, or suggestions are fully welcome. For reference I'll include a working-map of my world, with the Oruk Steppe being situated somewhere between just west of Praetoria (Roman), and between the unlabelled kingdom of Tiranor (north) and Thorcia (west).

[dingle]

As the orcs where created by magic from "twisting humans" then there should not be a problem that there mounts were created in a similar manner, a cross between the steppe poneys and cattle for a heavy cavalry mount. The Huns basically lived off there cattle, milk cheese and bleeding them to drink blood. They would need to trade for metal weapons and armour though. There bows where made from cattle bones and sinew.      

[LordVreeg]

So what need have dragons of a 'perfect warrior race'?  what were they fighting that a bunch of orcs would help?

how long have they been doing this out in the steppe? are the other nations primarily human, or mixed?  are their other 'racial nations'

Sorry to ask a bumch of questions, but otherwise I can't formulate a response that will fit into the setting.

[Llum]

One example you can check out Lionheart: Legacy of the Crusader. It's the last BLack Isle game, and really good. The point however are goblins. In the game goblins appeared around the 11th century and quickly supplanted the mongols/huns as steppe nomads.

As for the huns, I know they used horses for milk, cheese, meat and all that kind of stuff. The warriors even drank the blood instead of carrying a lot of travel rations.

As for mounts, technacly cows/bulls make poor mounts for the same reason ox do. They aren't really all that fast. Sure they can pull a heavy load, but they aren't getting anywhere fast.

Maybe instead of herders they could just hunt wild aurochs (really really large bulls) and caribou (if the climate fits). Not sure how much that fits the huns/mongols.

Various mount possibilities could be Moas, Terror Birds, Elk/Caribou, Boards, Moniter Lizards, Bison or something.

[Biohazard]

Some of this is already pretty cliche but it's cliche in areas that aren't that important - such as the appearance of the Oruks and the tribal thing. Don't overlook the use of horses as mounts, although bulls as mounts sound TOTALLY AWESOME and might fit the undisciplined nature of the race. Make sure you make them effective mounted warriors either way. That turns them into a very cool new version of orcs in my book.

[Ghostman]

Now, for what I need help with. I have a vision of the Oruks being a nomadic, tribal peoples inspired by the fierce nomads of the central asian steppe (namely Huns and Mongols). They'll live primarily off the herds they drive with them, with a very little harvesting of wild plants native to the steppe.

What i'm not sure of, is how exactly that would work. Would they *need* to trade with their neighbours for proper sustenance? Would an arid grassland be enough to sustain a relatively small population of lumbering orcs?

As already said by others in this thread, they should be able to sustain themselves by herding cattle and/or horses. That's the primary source of food. Hunting and a bit of gathering can supplement it, as can trade and raiding.

Also, I can't see them riding horses in the way the huns or mongols did. Worgs are somewhat cliche, though would likely work much better. Would orcs riding bulls perhaps be kind of silly? It would only make sense that they would use the females for their milk and the males as mounts, though I don't know how good of a mount a bull would make...

What ever the mounts will be, they should (largely) be herbivores capable to sustain themselves with nothing but grass. Any other kind of beast will not be possible to use in large enough numbers, due to the difficulty of feeding them. Ideally, the same species that acts as the primary mounts should also double as a useful source of milk and meat. And of corse, they need to be tame enough to accept riders, preferably also fast enough to not be easily catched by what ever mounts are used by the Orüks' enemies.

You can't really beat ponies for this purpose without either changing a real animal species greatly, or inventing a whole new species.

The Huns basically lived off there cattle, milk cheese and bleeding them to drink blood. They would need to trade for metal weapons and armour though.

Most steppe nomads didn't need to rely on trade for metal weapons and armour. They could acquire such items by raiding, and by subjugating small sedentary tribes/kingdoms and demanding that these provide them supplies. Not that they had anything against trade though.

[Gamer Printshop]

In real life the Mongols were such a devastating military force (aside from their superior bows, and means of traveling quickly by mount from place to place) due to logistics. They didn't need any as Mongols like their mounts live off the land. They hunted when they needed to, gathered roots, oats and other foodstuffs, raided to add what nature couldn't provide, or lived off their mounts (milk, cheese, blood, etc.)

Most standing European type armies required vast trains of supplies and food to maintain an army in the field. Once the food was gone. The army stopped or broke up.

So I don't think there is a need to trade to feed them, otherwise the Mongols would have never survived.

After they conquered they established trade, which they guaranteed by their existence of retaliation, as the trade routes ran through their property.

Regarding mounts - its hard to get away from steppe ponies or horses as they are fast and long distance travelers. Cattle slowly move in herds - whether that's aurochs, kine, deer/caribou, wooly rhinos, even mastadon which make them less than ideal as mounts (not mention difficult to breed and train). Horses having minimal defense mechanism (no horns) just runaway, which is the feature that makes them great mounts (plus they are more easily trained). Worgs, if they were more like Cape Hunting Dogs can run long distances in their hunt for food, perhaps traveling a hundred miles or more to capture prey - their running long distance feature might make them appropriate as mounts (but like dogs are more trainable than other animals).

Unless your dragons created Dog Horses, or some other kind of mount that supplants what the basic mounts above are less able to provide.

I'd say Oruks (Orcs) make good Mongols, though.

GP

[Raven Bloodmoon]

While I wish I had something useful to add to this thread, I will say I love the idea of your Oruks being modeled after Mongols.  It's just enough of a spin while keeping the original flavor.  If anything, it just makes them more to be feared.

While I'm not nearly learned enough about mounts to say much, I will say that whatever you choose, you need something that is capable of carrying an Oruk and whatever he might consider battle gear, as well as being willing to do so.  For example, I'm sure a grizzly bear could carry me, but I'm not about to find out if one would let me.  Food/water would be the other main concern.  The less it requries, the better.  So long as you have access to appropriate magic or breeding techniques, you can probably make anything trainable if it has sufficient brain power (I doubt you would train a cockroach, regardless of breeding).

[Garanth]

Also, I can't see them riding horses in the way the huns or mongols did. Worgs are somewhat cliche, though would likely work much better. Would orcs riding bulls perhaps be kind of silly? It would only make sense that they would use the females for their milk and the males as mounts, though I don't know how good of a mount a bull would make...

What ever the mounts will be, they should (largely) be herbivores capable to sustain themselves with nothing but grass. Any other kind of beast will not be possible to use in large enough numbers, due to the difficulty of feeding them. Ideally, the same species that acts as the primary mounts should also double as a useful source of milk and meat. And of corse, they need to be tame enough to accept riders, preferably also fast enough to not be easily catched by what ever mounts are used by the Orüks' enemies.

You can't really beat ponies for this purpose without either changing a real animal species greatly, or inventing a whole new species.

The problem with ponies is that they're too small. Oruks need to be huge and imposing, otherwise they're just ugly humans. If they stand 6 1/2 to 7 feet tall, and weigh upwards of 250 pounds, they're going to look silly on ponies, and even likely on horses.

Really the question is, do they ride some kind of mutant giant horse? Worgs are cool, but being carnivores I (and others here agree) they wouldn't be feasible since they'd likely double the amount of food a tribe would need. Bulls have the added bonus of being a wicked cool idea, though they fall a little short on the feasibility side too...

Another thing I worry about is from a narrative point of view. At some point, while the PCs are in the area, a new Khagan will rise amongst the tribes, and lead the Oruks down from the steppe to make war on the surrounding nations. Oruks mounted on horseback would sweep across the countryside too fast to be intercepted by PCs or a defending army, while a force mounted on bulls would still be fast enough to be terrifying and devastating, but a mounted force could still intercept them.

The mounts likely won't be entirely universal either, allowing them to be scaled. Lesser tribes might travel on foot, herding goats or sheep close to the mountains where the hills are steeper and the more powerful mounted tribes would avoid. Powerful tribes would drive huge herds of cattle, driving them aback some sort of mount. Some members of the most powerful tribes may ride huge beasts like mammoths or wholly rhinos (as someone mentioned, which sounds totally awesome), making them absolutely terrifying in battle.

I'm still toying with the idea of just inventing a species specifically as Oruk mounts though. They would have to have horns, and be somewhat squat and heavily muscled, making them larger yet slower than horses in order to properly carry their huge riders.

[Nomadic]

I would avoid bulls since that will destroy any seriousness. I can just imagine players nicknaming them the burly bullfolk or the cow people.

You might think about something similar to a Clydesdale in size and speed. Not fast horses, but they're big and strong.

[Llum]

hey would have to have horns, and be somewhat squat and heavily muscled, making them larger yet slower than horses in order to properly carry their huge riders.

I believe boards fit this category, like I suggested earlier ~~

[Garanth]

So what need have dragons of a 'perfect warrior race'?  what were they fighting that a bunch of orcs would help?

how long have they been doing this out in the steppe? are the other nations primarily human, or mixed?  are their other 'racial nations'

Sorry to ask a bumch of questions, but otherwise I can't formulate a response that will fit into the setting.

The dragons ruled the world, or at least giant swaths of it, for millenia. After a lengthy ice age that forced them into hibernation, they awoke to find the world populated with a new race, humans. Humans were widely adaptable, and their shorter life span (compared to elves and dwarves), made them the only intelligent race that could be moulded properly into interesting new species.

True though, historically the dragons never needed warriors. Their awesome might left them all but unopposed, and should they be roused to war a few thousand fire-breathing dragons was all that was really needed to ensure victory anyways.

This changed when a vicious plague suddenly swept through the dragons. Thousands died, and those that survived found themselves barren and infertile. Chaos erupted, as the eternal race suddenly found themselves facing extinction, and factions broke out who disagreed how best to deal with this situation. That disagreement quickly escalated to violence, and the first (and last) war amongst dragons broke out.

As their numbers dwindled, the dragons became even more fearful of extinction, and began breeding warrior races to fight a proxy-war in their stead. This is where the Oruks, and likely other races like giants, yuan-ti, etc were born. Soon even this proved to be too dangerous, and a tenuous truce was brokered to prevent the war from wiping their species out entirely. What little order was left in the Draconic civilization shattered, and each dragon largely fled to fend for themselves. They retreated into their subterranean dens and palaces, or stole them from dwarves and other underground races if they owned none of their own, and went again into hibernation, abandoning the surface to their former thralls.

Due to their rapid rate of breeding and adaptability to any climate or circumstances, humans have come to dominate the large portion of the planet. Most nations are either entirely or primarily composed of humans.

There are other races in the world though. The Oruks, obviously, dominate the Oruk Steppe in the west. Various types of giants live scattered throughout the mountains, though they are even less politically cohesive than the oruks.

Also in the mountains are the Dwarves, and their cousins the Duergar. Right now I'm considering an east-west split to distinguish the two, with dwarves being more amiable to other races while the duergar are decidedly less so.

The elves once composed a single peoples that lived in a huge forest in what is now Azhara. They had long avoided and appeased the dragons, offering them tribute in exchange for leaving them and their forest home in peace. Eventually, they either offended the dragons or ran afoul of their insufferable greed. Those who became enslaved by the dragons were subtly warped into the Gith (also likely to be renamed. Those elves that stayed to fight for their home died horrible, as the dragons scoured their homeland from the earth with their fiery breath, until nothing but a barren desert remained.

Some elves hastily built ships, and fled to the west (to where the dragons had not yet travelled). Others fled into the mountains, where they encountered the Duergar. Under the guise of friendship, the Duergar secretly sold out the elves to the dragons (whom the Duergar were loyal servants). Those who managed to escape the trap fled deeper into the mountains and became the Drow (to be renamed).


In the west, the elves who had escaped on ships split into two camps. Some found homes in the deep forests of the western continent, which they found reminiscent of their forest home to the west (elves). Another group thought the former foolish and naive, knowing that eventually the dragons would pursue them to this new land and force them to flee all over again. They instead colonized some islands (just to the north of Delios), where they built beautiful fortress cities and developed horrible destructive magics in preparation for the inevitable invasion.

The other races have no nations of their own, but have instead blended into human societies. The Dragonborn (Tatsuo, after the japanese for "dragon man") have little but a shattered nation in the east, and the majority of their race lives instead amongst humans as craftsmen and mercenaries. The halflings and gnomes too have been subjugated by human nations, living peacefully in hamlets amongst their own people or in cities amongst humans.

[Garanth]

hey would have to have horns, and be somewhat squat and heavily muscled, making them larger yet slower than horses in order to properly carry their huge riders.

Thanks, I saw your suggestion but I have no idea what a board is? Are they a real animal, or a fantasy creation?

I loved your suggestion about how the huns drank the blood of their mounts, thats definitely something the Oruks will need to do.

[Llum]

Wow, I'm a complete retard. I meant Boar. Not boards. Stupid fingers getting away from me >_< sorry.

[Ghostman]

Perhaps coming up with a whole new fantasy species is the best idea here. Anyone who can suspend their disbelief in the face of dragons should have no problem doing the same with big, bad, horned herbivores that allow themselves to be mounted by heavy riders. Maybe something that looks like a cross between a rhino and a bull? You could have two subspecies of the beast, one smaller and another that's larger (kinda like horses and ponies). Most of the Orüks would be riding the smaller ones (still big and strong enough to bear their weight of corse) while their elite warriors would be mounted on the massive warbeasts.