[Brainstorming] Spirits in the Material World

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Yes, I like The Police.  That being said, allow me to preface this post thus:  This is an idea that has been slowly bubbling in my head for a couple of years.  I may have even posted bits of it here before and know I have elsewhere.  It is not setting-specific yet, but I thought I'd toss it up for vivisection anyway.  I'd love questions, comments, criticisms, speculation, or anything else you'd care to say. Mind you, this is just a collection of random notes I've tried to assemble into some sort of cohesive outline.

1. The world itself has a single unifying spirit

2. All spirits native to the world are individuals but share in and are part of the unifying spirit
a. This is one of the mysteries

3. While individual spirits have separate knowledge and experiences, their link with the World Spirit creates a collective consciousness with the shared memories and experiences of every spirit that has existed.

4. When a spirit 'dies' it is reabsorbed into the World Spirit and its personality dissolves therein.

5. When a spirit is 'destroyed' it is gone forever.

6. All natural things have spirits.  Shaping a natural thing through destruction kills the spirit so that it returns to the World Spirit.
a. Careful craftsmanship or exquisite artisanry can preserve or even cause the incarnation of a spirit in the finished work.  This is very rare and rarely reliably done.

7. When a new natural thing comes to be, a piece of the World Spirit enters it to form its spirit.
a. This is not necessarily a complete spirit that had existed before.  It is a piece of the World Spirit, and likely an amalgamation of myriad spirits.  It lacks no specific identity of its own outside of its new existence.
i. Sometimes, a large enough piece of one particular 'dead' spirit enters a natural item so that it can said to have had a past life.

8. Past lives are a rare occurrence.  They are what happens when a disproportionately large piece of one particular spirit incarnates into a new natural thing.
a. One can sometimes learn to tap into this prior life's memories and experiences.
i. In extreme cases, it might be possible for the 'past life' to take over as the dominant spirit and thus be a true reincarnation.  This is extremely rare.

9. Because the World Spirit links everything in the world, it is theoretically possible for everything in the world to directly affect each other.
a. This is how magic functions
b. Magic can only affect things with spirits that are linked through the World Spirit
i. Magic cannot directly affect most crafted or worked objects.
c. It is theoretically possible to look into the World Spirit's memory or repository of experience.
i. This collective memory is analogous to the Akasha '" it holds every memory and experience that any spirit has ever had.  (Imagine the internet that cluttered.  This is why it's not easy to use by even those who can tap it.)

10. Death or destruction of a natural thing returns its spirit to the World Spirit.  If the spirit itself can be targeted, it is possible to destroy that spirit and in doing so, diminish the World Spirit as a whole.
a. It could be feasibly possible to trap a spirit and prevent it from returning to the World Spirit.
b. It could be feasibly possible to pull a spirit that has returned to the World Spirit but not yet been parceled out as part of a new spirit back into the world
c. It could be possible for a spirit with a strong enough will to not immediately rejoin the World Spirit

11. A disembodied spirit is insubstantial and invisible.  It cannot directly interact with the physical world without exerting substantial effort on its part
a. A disembodied spirit is insubstantial everywhere in the world, including 'astral planes' or 'spiritual planes'
1. Entities termed commonly 'spirits' by physical consciousnesses often refer to entities that live in a parallel plane of existence where they have physical form but lack it in the physical world. (Not 100% certain this works like this '" probably not).

12. Each 'world' has a World Spirit of its own
a. The description above describes the relationships of all spirits in a 'world' and their spirits

13. Entities from different 'worlds' cannot directly affect each other with magic
a. One loophole to this is if a natural thing shares in another world's World Spirit
i. A natural thing that shares in another world's World Spirit can similarly be affected by spirits from that world, as well

I'm not familiar with how (or if) you can indent on this forum, so please bare with me.

[Superfluous Crow]

1 & 2: a good concept as it avoids having spirits that are conscious in their unincarnate state, which would otherwise involve having to come up with just what they are doing when not incarnated...
3. Do they have access to the collective knowledge when incarnate?
4. & 5. the obvious question: how do you destroy them? (killing them seemed to involve the destruction of their home.
6+6a: great idea. Good basis for magic items (i reckon that's what an item with a living spirit in it essentially is.
7. maybe i'm just tired, but what do you mean by: "It lacks no specific identity of its own outside of its new existence."
8. Even though it wouldn't be used often, it's always good to have the option. (if you use feats, they'd be good as feats)
9. 9bi seems like a natural consequence of 6a, so the system already has some internal logic :) Tapping into a collective archive of knowledge is a cool and unique form of magic. (although i guess magic also involves different types of mental manipulation).
10. Possibilities for spirit "sciences", something i'm also currently tinkering with.
11. Seems sufficiently "ghostly". Maybe ghosts/spirits are just spirits who believe so strongly that they are alive or that they must accomplish something that they bend the air around their non-existant body, causing a ghostly silhouette?
12. Consider interactions between these world spirits. Do they collide? fight? meet?
13. What being could share two world spirits? Half-breeds?

Not much mention of human spirits/souls. Are they special in some way? Are they amalgamate intelligences or are they always powerful singular spirits? Or are the powerful spirits limited to special characters (read: player characters).

[Seraph]

Very sensible.  I like it.  Most of what I would say would echo Crow, but I also have another question:  between 6 and 9, it would seem to me that it is Necromancy is impossible--is this so?  

I suppose I should say what I mean, as Necromancy can mean more than one thing.

Necromancy in terms of animating corpses into undead creatures seems impossible, as the bodies would be removed from the world spirit by death.
Necromancy in the more classic sense of invoking spirits also seems impossible, if the Spirits return to the universal World Spirit.  It seems like there could be an exception in the case of a newly dead subject, but otherwise, it seem that this kind of necromancy would be trying to contact a "spirit" that has since been divided among countless other forms.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

4. & 5. the obvious question: how do you destroy them? (killing them seemed to involve the destruction of their home.

"It lacks no specific identity of its own outside of its new existence."[/quote]Consider interactions between these world spirits. Do they collide? fight? meet?[/quote]I also have another question: between 6 and 9, it would seem to me that it is Necromancy is impossible--is this so?

I suppose I should say what I mean, as Necromancy can mean more than one thing.

Necromancy in terms of animating corpses into undead creatures seems impossible, as the bodies would be removed from the world spirit by death.[/quote]
In the classical sense, Necromancy is alive and well.  Remember that by "spirit" I am essentially refering to souls.  There could easily be "spirits" in the sense of elementals or astral entities, whose bodies may not be like yours or mine, but still have spirits connected to the World Spirit.  I might conjure forth the spirit of the Jet Stream so ask it questions about a specific airplane that flew through it.

In the DnD sense of making zombies, that would have to be done more creatively.  I don't see why you couldn't bind a spirit in the sense described above to your will and have it posssess a corpse.  Perhaps zombies are little more than golems created from the dead.  Perhaps some spirits make a habit of possessing bodies and run amok biting people on the neck.  Bad examples, but the possibility remains.  Just different avenues to the same destination.

Personally, I like the traditional sense more than the DnD sense, though.  That's just me.  Far, far creepier.

[Superfluous Crow]

If a group of random people die and are reincarnated in Bob and Bob then dies would they revert to their original many forms or would they be fused permanently into a Bob-spirit?

[Raven Bloodmoon]

New Bob-spirit until they rejoin the World Spirit.

Since all of the individual spirits' memories are somewhere in the collective memory, I suppose it is possible to gather them up and reassemble one of the originals, or at least all of the original's thoughts, experiences, and memory.  Perhaps there would be an insanely laborious way to recreate a dead spirit in this fashion, if the World Spirit consented.  Or the World Spirit could consciously do such a thing, assuming it is conscious itself.  That could even be a source of local lgend and myth.  A sort of Krishna who the World Spirit occassionally sends to muck about in the world.

[Raven Bloodmoon]

Here is a slightly updated version of the previous outline.  It is also numbered differently to make it easier to reference.

I would appreciate any implications or consequences of this setup as it might affect religious perceptions, magic and its effects, philosophies, adn the like.  I mean this from the typical ingorant human point of perception.

Akasha '" The collection of all knowledge, experiences, and thoughts that have ever occurred in a World.  See World Spirit.
Body '" One of the three parts of being.  The Body is the corporeal self that eventually dies.
Entity '" A natural thing that has a Soul, Mind, and Body
Mind '" One of the three parts of being.  The Mind is the incorporeal self that is the consciousness.
Natural Thing - An object of nature unshaped through destruction.
Soul '" One of the three parts of being.  The Soul is the incorporeal self that shares in the World Spirit through the Union of Souls.
Spirit '" An entity that possesses a soul, usually being either insubstantial or closely tied to nature.
Thing '" A natural thing that may be a discrete Entity.
The Union '" The Union of Spirits
Union of Souls '" The congress of all souls native to a specific World.  See World Spirit.
World '" A metaphysical plane of existence.
World Spirit '" The Spirit of a World.  The World is its Body, the Union of Souls is its Soul, and Akasha is its Mind.[/spoiler]
Glossary terms are always capitalized to distinguish them from regular useage of the word.

One last question:  Would it be prefered that the outline be kept in a spoiler or left like this, as it expands like a shoggoth in downtown New York?

[Superfluous Crow]

heh, damn, i also have three parts of being. Luckily not the same though.
As to the nature of the mind, what is it made of? Is it physical, made from some otherworldly material, or something akin to a spirit?
I'm a bit surprised as to how little consequence the loss of a soul seems to have. For most it seems to more of an advantage really. Maybe people have trouble being empathic towards soulless beings? Maybe they are kind of forgotten by others as they experience no connection to them? Also, animals might dislike them as something unnatural (if they don't have a soul from their world that might as well be otherworldly and therefore dangerous in their primitive minds).  
I find it interesting how we seem to have had many of the same thoughts considering this with the cycle of spirits and such even though i personally didn't go with the part where spirits are everywhere and in non-living things.
This format isn't exactly easy to read btw...

[Raven Bloodmoon]

I'm not entirely certain about the nature of the Mind, what it's made of or any of that.  That's actually where I'm a little stumped.  It's the consciousness.  Not sure beyond that yet, though I'm open to suggestions.

One thing I don't think I've mentioned is that the mind can be displaced from the body to form your typical out-of-body experience or astral projection or whatever wlese you'd want to call it.  Even in such a state, it is still tied to the body and soul and will dissipate however that happens if the entity dies.

I'm not 100% certain of the ramifications of not having a soul, but the idea of a soulless freak of nature sounds appealing.  I like your idea of animals disliking them.  I think, in general, they will be rare, disconnected, and very unnerving.  I don't think a soullessness will be a natural state.  Frankly, I'm not 100% certain just what a soul does for the self aside from link it to every other spirit in the world.

Alternatively, the soul could be the life force, so an entity that has body and mind but no soul is basically a walking dead.  This would reinforce the idea that the soulless are unnatural and disliked.  It also gives undead interesting advantages and places an interesting limit on D&D-style necromancy - you can create it, but you can't do squat to control it magically.

As for format, I'm trying to set up an outline, and my word doc of this is an outline, but I can't see any way to indent.  Do you have any suggestions?

Lastly, how did you do three parts to the self?  I'm sort of drawing on ideas from ancient Egypt and from Plato on that.  The World Spirit is sort of an amalgamation of ideas from (sadly) the Final Fantasy movie and Serial Experiments Lain.  The former being that the planet has a spirit and the latter being the idea that if you plug enough people together you get a metamind with its own group consciouness that is, itself, a self-aware entity.  That, combined with animism, seems to be congealing into an intersting idea that bares some internal consistency.