Celestial Bodies

[Porklet]

NOTE:  Not Hooter's girls or Playmates...

In my fantasy setting there are a few quirky celestial bodies that I need some feedback on.  I am not necessarily concerned with astrophysics and the like, but while it's good for flavoring I do want it to make some sense.

1.  Memnona & Myrgla, the Twin Moons:  These moons tumble over each other in the sky on a fixed orbit.  When one is full the other is also, etc.  They are high in the sky and far from the surface.  They appear as symbols in religions the world over.  I am wondering how they might affect the tides and currents?  I don't know how binary satellites work, but if anyone has some insight that might help flesh it out more, that would be appreciated.  I want some subtle effects, if any.

2.  Lushar, the Crimson Moon:  This moon is a striking red with some white, seemingly glowing, features.  It is commonly associated with Argulite (demonic) magic and does affect its cycles.  It was used as a symbol for a world-spanning empire, the Lusharite Empire, that used demonic powers to seduce and conquer its "holdings".  It does not follow a "fixed" orbit, and its distance from the surface varies.  It follows a pattern, but in terms of human life it is random (the pattern is over the course of millions of years).  It can hover in the sky for years and then disappear for centuries.  These are two extreme examples.  It has an extreme effect on tides, weather patterns, currents, and magic cycles (as mentioned above).  I am looking for ideas on what type of effects might take place.  It was in the sky for several decades several years ago so it might not return anytime soon, but when it does I wanted to implement some particularly destructive and inventive effects.  Any ideas?

3.  Hemra, the World's Belt:  This is a ring satellite.  I am going back and forth on whether to include this one at all.  Are rings visible from the surface?  If so, what do they look like?  These are actual questions and not just musings.  I had envisioned the ring being associated with the Elder God Orum.  He is magic incarnate.  The materials from the ring give bonuses to casting in the form of increased duration, range, and power.  It can also reduce FP costs.  It is also necessary for certain high powered spells and rituals.  Would debris from a ring fall to the earth?  If Lushar were to move thru the ring what effect would that have?


Again, any feedback would be greatly appreciated, and any answers to my lingering questions even more so.

[limetom]

Lushar, the Crimson Moon:  It does not follow a "fixed" orbit, and its distance from the surface varies.  It follows a pattern, but in terms of human life it is random (the pattern is over the course of millions of years).  It can hover in the sky for years and then disappear for centuries.  These are two extreme examples.  It has an extreme effect on tides, weather patterns, currents, and magic cycles (as mentioned above).

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Would debris from a ring fall to the earth?  If Lushar were to move thru the ring what effect would that have?

Yes, rings themselves are usually not stable and collapse over time.  Eventually, even Saturn won't have rings.  If debris fell from the ring, it would be like a large meteor shower.  Maybe debris would impact the surface, but I doubt it.

If a moon passed through rings (which it shouldn't even be close enough to do), it would drag debris away with it, most of which would end up falling to the surface of the planet the moon and ring orbit around.

[Nomadic]

Don't worry too much about astrophysics. Your world's satellites already aren't realistic at all from the point of real world physics. So no real reason to worry about what they might do since they couldn't exist in reality.

[Porklet]

Orbits don't really work like that, but whatever.  It might be better to do this one as a comet, and not a moon, but it's your call.

I am aware that orbits don't work that way.  It follows a pattern set down by the goddess Asta Luria.  She placed it in the sky to harangue and bewilder the human children of her nemesis, Etheb.  She set it on a predestined path to aid her demonic followers and legions in an effort to destroy the world.  It doesn't follow an "orbit", because it is not supposed to.  It is supposed to be alien and make no sense.

I was fishing for some ideas about what a satellite of that ilk would do to the tides, currents, etc.  It is an oddity, and I wanted some alternate points of view on the subject before I started piecing it together.

[Porklet]

Don't worry too much about astrophysics. Your world's satellites already aren't realistic at all from the point of real world physics. So no real reason to worry about what they might do since they couldn't exist in reality.

I wanted some feedback on what effects these celestial bodies might have on the world below.  I am well aware that they are not realistic.  Unlike dancing fancy elf lords and demon princes who sleep with the queen just for the hell of it.

[Nomadic]

Well the whole thing is fairly moot since they don't follow a real world pattern they aren't going to follow real world physics. So effectively you can have them do whatever you want. I could tell you roughly what they would do in the real world but that is pointless since in order to do it they would have to exert gravity in such a way that they wouldn't exist within a few hundred years of their formation.

[Porklet]

Well the whole thing is fairly moot since they don't follow a real world pattern they aren't going to follow real world physics. So effectively you can have them do whatever you want. I could tell you roughly what they would do in the real world but that is pointless since in order to do it they would have to exert gravity in such a way that they wouldn't exist within a few hundred years of their formation.

So, no ideas then?

[Nomadic]

Go wild man, have the moons randomly cause the ring to ripple. Make the blood red moon cast shadows where they shouldn't be, steeping an area in utter darkness and spawning fell horrors. This is one of those things where fantasy reigns supreme and you can really go crazy.

[Porklet]

Go wild man, have the moons randomly cause the ring to ripple. Make the blood red moon cast shadows where they shouldn't be, steeping an area in utter darkness and spawning fell horrors. This is one of those things where fantasy reigns supreme and you can really go crazy.

I like the ripple-effect.  That could cause some of the debris to fall towards the earth.  I know I want some of the debris to reach the ground, because it will serve as a highly sought after magical component.  This could be in the form of meteroites, but I'm toying with the ring idea for now.

During times when Lushar is in the sky there is a spike in demonic magic.  In fact, that is the reason why the goddess Asta Luria placed the moon in the sky to begin with.  It hovers over an unkown continent in a far off ocean where Asta Luria's children reside much of the time.  That is where it goes when it disappears.  But, to have howling demons spontaneously appear?  It could cause demonic weapons of power to activate.  Bound demons might have the power to overcome their masters.  Thus, fell horrors are unleashed.  Novices or unknowing posessors of demon items might succumb to posession or control.

I had also considered a deep red tint during nights when Lushar is low in the sky.  Would this make things that are red virtually invisible?  Considering they might look the same as the surrounding?

Oh, and don't call me wild man...

[Superfluous Crow]

I think it was supposed to be "Go wild, man" and not wild man :p
And although i realize that Lushar is hardly realistic, which isn't the point as Porklet points out, what's wrong with the twin moons since you seem to deem the entire system unrealistic? As far as i'm aware there are plenty of planets with more than one moon.
And as far as the twin moons go, are they both visible at the same time or do they exist on opposite sides of the planet?
As to the red tint, do you mean the sky or the world itself? A red sky would be pretty awesome; the world less so (in my opinion).
If you have a ring with debris falling to earth frequently you could have meteorites play a large part in either magic or religion or folklore.

[Nomadic]

Yes I was saying go wild, not calling you a wild man :P

And although i realize that Lushar is hardly realistic, which isn't the point as Porklet points out, what's wrong with the twin moons since you seem to deem the entire system unrealistic? As far as i'm aware there are plenty of planets with more than one moon.

Yes there are planets that have more than one moon. However, in order for this to happen the planet must be far larger than both moons in order to keep them in check. Theoretically the moons could get fairly large as long as they were in resonance with each other but we have yet to see this in reality. Even if this planet was large enough to handle both moons we have another problem. The moons are a binary system, which gets you the same results as a moon of a moon setup. The planet will inevitably win out and fairly quickly tear the binary system apart creating a standard 2 moon system. And while the planet's gravity is strong enough to do this it doesn't mass enough to keep the moons from totally destroying each others orbital path. The likely result would involve one or both of them spiraling inside the Roche limit and becoming one with the planetary ring (which would be long gone by now due to all three moons).

[Porklet]

I think it was supposed to be "Go wild, man" and not wild man :p
And although i realize that Lushar is hardly realistic, which isn't the point as Porklet points out, what's wrong with the twin moons since you seem to deem the entire system unrealistic? As far as i'm aware there are plenty of planets with more than one moon.
And as far as the twin moons go, are they both visible at the same time or do they exist on opposite sides of the planet?
As to the red tint, do you mean the sky or the world itself? A red sky would be pretty awesome; the world less so (in my opinion).
If you have a ring with debris falling to earth frequently you could have meteorites play a large part in either magic or religion or folklore.

I know what he was saying.  I was just poking fun by paraphrasing "Don't call me surely" from Airplane.
The twin moons are next to each other and revolve around each other as well.  The tumble over each other, and their orbits are parallel to the surface.  Meaning they don't pass between each other and the planet below.  I have been told binary satellites are an astrophysical possibility, but I am not certain exactly how they work.  I believe one of them is supposed to be a satellite of the other, or something similar.
The red tint would only occur at night when the red moon is low in the sky.  Much like the ambient light created by a full moon.  It wouldn't occur all that often, and even then only at night.
The fallen debris from the sky, whether it's from the ring satellite or meteroites, does indeed have magical uses.  It might have religious connotations in some southern cults where magery is revered and gods are numerous.  I have no direct religious connection worked out to date.

[Porklet]

Yes I was saying go wild, not calling you a wild man :P

And although i realize that Lushar is hardly realistic, which isn't the point as Porklet points out, what's wrong with the twin moons since you seem to deem the entire system unrealistic? As far as i'm aware there are plenty of planets with more than one moon.

I am not married to the ring idea.  What if the twin moons were not binary but shared roughly the same orbital path and maintained the same speed.  In some religions they represent a male god figure chasing a female god figure across the sky.  If I could maintain that illusion I would have no problem making them two separate satellites.  Thoughts?

[Nomadic]

That would be possible under one of two conditions. Firstly they could be of similar size and exactly 180 degrees opposite of one and other. Their resonance would keep their orbit stable. The other possibility would be that one is much smaller than the other and is in one of the two Lagrange points along it's orbit. Technically Lagrange points aren't stable but you could hand wave this, either ignoring it or attributing it to magic if players ask.

Now alternatively you could have one moon on a closer, faster orbit, and another on a slower outer orbit. This would allow a 1:2 resonance. That's where the inner moon orbits twice for each single orbit of the outer moon. It's a stable orbital pattern and would make two acceptable sized moons orbiting the world possible as the resonance reinforces the orbit.

As for the red moon... Normally it would heavily affect and mess with the moons due to gravity in odd places. However it doesn't seem to follow the laws of physics so it would be fine having it not affect celestial bodies gravitationally.

[Porklet]

That would be possible under one of two conditions. Firstly they could be of similar size and exactly 180 degrees opposite of one and other. Their resonance would keep their orbit stable. The other possibility would be that one is much smaller than the other and is in one of the two Lagrange points along it's orbit. Technically Lagrange points aren't stable but you could hand wave this, either ignoring it or attributing it to magic if players ask.

Now alternatively you could have one moon on a closer, faster orbit, and another on a slower outer orbit. This would allow a 1:2 resonance. That's where the inner moon orbits twice for each single orbit of the outer moon. It's a stable orbital pattern and would make two acceptable sized moons orbiting the world possible as the resonance reinforces the orbit.

As for the red moon... Normally it would heavily affect and mess with the moons due to gravity in odd places. However it doesn't seem to follow the laws of physics so it would be fine having it not affect celestial bodies gravitationally.

So, if I understand this correctly.  I could have two moons that have roughly identical orbital paths, but they would have to be situated on opposites sides of the planet. They would also have to maintain the same speeds.  Or, I could have a smaller planet, in a more shallow orbit, that revolves roughly twice as fast?  I am not married to the binary satellite either, as long as I can maintain a coherent pursued/pursuer relationship between the two for religious purposes.

I am forced to agree regarding the wayward moon and its effects on gravitational forces.  What if the red moon did follow a pattern, but it's orbit was much slower?  This would create long periods where it disappeared, and extended periods where it appeared in the sky.  This could also suit my purposes.  I would be seeking an extremely slow speed, however.  Maybe revolving around the planet twice a year or once every two months?  Can the speed of the orbit change, perhaps?  Just throwing out some ideas.

I am entertaining these ideas in order to foster some inherent realism in the surroundings.  The mystic and mysterious properties of the moons can be woven into the setting whether the moons follow a path or dance about the sky randomly.