OOTS Rumor, Speculation and Otherwise General Discussion! *Spoiler HEAVY!* (you've been warned)

[Elemental_Elf]

comic 450[/url].

[Jharviss]

Well, I have to say that I can't put much stock into a lot of this speculation.  I see it as V sharing four consciouses. Sure, the fiends said that he could exert his willpower over them, but they are still there influencing him.  I don't blame V himself for this marginally evil act, just his inability to fight against those within him.

In other words, I don't think V will become a villain.

I do foresee V becoming scared of himself, as Elemental_Elf alluded to, always afraid of when he might have to pay back his debt.  That could be scary!

On the other hand, I really do love the idea of all of those dead black dragons being used somehow.  Oooo, that'd be grand.

Or, what if this act captures the attention of Xycon, who contacts V and completely forgets that V was the enemy?  Then V could pull this whole secret agent thing while "serving" Xycon.  Then again, that doesn't quite seem like Rich's style.

[beejazz]

Probably true... but even still, its not like those Black Dragons were the blameless orphans left in the wake of Sauron's march across the lands of Middle Earth...

I'm not trying to say it was a Good act, far from it; I am, however, trying to put it in context - Black Dragons are Chaotic Evil monsters - if V didn't kill them, they would have raped, pillaged and done other dragon-y things for eons to come. Better dead than let their collective reign of terror continue. Of course the easy way to counter this argument is to cite the eggs, the Draco-taur and the Half-Dragon and say that they may not have been C/E and, most especially, the Half-Dragon could have been a L/G Paladin protecting orphans! Thankfully, we'll never know.

Man, genocide is genocide. I'd call it chaotic evil no matter who or what the victim was. Those dragons weren't killed for their alignments (a dubious concept to begin with) or their actions. They were killed for that unforgivable crime of being born black dragons (*gasp* how could they?!).

It's not the kind of thing I'm accustomed to justifying with the alignment system in my D&D games.

[Elemental_Elf]

Probably true... but even still, its not like those Black Dragons were the blameless orphans left in the wake of Sauron's march across the lands of Middle Earth...

I'm not trying to say it was a Good act, far from it; I am, however, trying to put it in context - Black Dragons are Chaotic Evil monsters - if V didn't kill them, they would have raped, pillaged and done other dragon-y things for eons to come. Better dead than let their collective reign of terror continue. Of course the easy way to counter this argument is to cite the eggs, the Draco-taur and the Half-Dragon and say that they may not have been C/E and, most especially, the Half-Dragon could have been a L/G Paladin protecting orphans! Thankfully, we'll never know.

Man, genocide is genocide. I'd call it chaotic evil no matter who or what the victim was. Those dragons weren't killed for their alignments (a dubious concept to begin with) or their actions. They were killed for that unforgivable crime of being born black dragons (*gasp* how could they?!).

It's not the kind of thing I'm accustomed to justifying with the alignment system in my D&D games.

I wouldn't call it genocide. Nothing there lead me to believe all Black Dragons were killed, just the ones related to this particular Black Dragon. Put this in context, if V killed 57+ Goblins with the same spell would you really feel as morally outraged? If you're not as outraged with that, then you value the life of one sentient race more than another.

[Nomadic]

comic 450[/url].

But that was a Xykon decoy. I see people talking about this Xycon guy but I can never figure out who he is :P

[Ishmayl-Retired]

I wouldn't call it genocide. Nothing there lead me to believe all Black Dragons were killed, just the ones related to this particular Black Dragon. Put this in context, if V killed 57+ Goblins with the same spell would you really feel as morally outraged? If you're not as outraged with that, then you value the life of one sentient race more than another.

I think this is an important thing to remember.  How many of you guys have ever played in a campaign where you had to wipe out a goblin lair, and didn't even blink an eye?  In my campaign, there are parts of the world that consider that "genocide," and there are parts of the world that consider that "cleaning up."  However, even in OotS, the comic started with them plundering Xykon's fortress and killing dozens/scores of goblins, and no one has ever called the group genocidal before.

[Loch Belthadd]

I am contributing to an earlier conversation about munchkins. I like munchkins. They demonstrate resourcefulness and adaptation. Although I will admit that being on the recieving end is annoying.
I have found a way to beat the munchkin. If they kill the bbeg dragon by blowing up it's stomach, then the DM changes plans and makes a more powerful dragon the bbeg, with the first one actually being the second in-command or some such. Then have the new dragon hear of it's henchman's demise and take steps to prevent such a thing from happening to it.

[Nomadic]

Alternatively... turn it into a vengeful dracolich.

[Ra-Tiel]

@Ishy: But these enemies were killed in combat and had a "chance" to fight back/flee. Those goblins weren't killed from the other side of the planet. And that's the difference here. Just imagine how big the outrage would be if Xykon did the same with e.g. Daigo's family. Or Hinjo's family. Would the forums in that case all be "awesome!" and "cool!", too?

"Evil is as Evil does" - and the massmurderer V committed was evil. Even moreso since it was purely committed out of hate/revenge.

I know that real-life examples are always problematic, but do you really think that some guy who just shot some 50 Americans would be celebrated as a hero even if he told the police "these were all terrorists and I defended America against a terrorist attack"?

@Nomadic: or let it return as a ghost dragon, preferably a solo brute or some such.

Four times the hitpoints + takes half damage from all attacks = Eight times the fun for the DM. :D

[Loch Belthadd]

Four times the hitpoints + takes half damage from all attacks = Eight times the fun for the DM. :D

Me likey. alternitavly (in a goofy campaign) make it come back with a +10 amulet of munchkin/minmaxer/annoying payerbane

[brainface]

Put this in context, if V killed 57+ Goblins with the same spell would you really feel as morally outraged? If you're not as outraged with that, then you value the life of one sentient race more than another.

actually[/i] value goblin life at all! ha!). Second off, yeah, familiciding goblins would be pretty brutal too; especially as I'm sure the author would take care to show goblins doing normal everyday things like eating supper and chopping down trees (as well as fighting heroic adventurers) before being suddenly killed out of the blue.

I wouldn't call it genocide.

Well, er, yeah, it's Familicide. :) That's like, one step down from genocide, which is kinda damning with faint praise to say the least. (Hopefully it's a neologism and not an actual real life crime and all.)

[Nomadic]

I know that real-life examples are always problematic, but do you really think that some guy who just shot some 50 Americans would be celebrated as a hero even if he told the police "these were all terrorists and I defended America against a terrorist attack"?

If they actually turned out to be proven terrorists then yes, yes he would probably be hailed as hero.

[brainface]

I think the example might be stronger if the 50 random americans were "Likely terrorists" or had a "strong inclination towards terrorism" or "Looked suspicious". If the 50 had like, just literally blown up a bridge in front of witnesses then yeah we'd just start calling him rambo.

I'd try to "fix" the example, but frankly that's Ra-Tiel's job, and I don't really feel like bringing in a real life example of my own; if for no other reason than V's actions/justifications, if applied to a real-life people/event, instantly become god-awful and I don't want to argue the merits of them. :P

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I linked to this thread on the webcomics wiki as the official OotS discussion thread.

Do you believe the bargain was justified but his actions following were not?

Well, what's left to say? V has been the target of the "transmute hero to a**hole" spell. I don't know how's that saying is going in English, but there's a German one "Power corrupts - absolute power corrupts absolutely" and V is a very prominent example of that.

Acton[/url]) in reference to the Catholic Church.

[Ra-Tiel]

@Nomadic: well, perhaps this guy would be called a hero... before being put on the death row. Massmurderer stays massmurderer not matter your motivation. And we've been shown again and again that even the OotS doesn't have all-encompassing executive rights all over the world.

@brainface: no, I think my example is just right. That imaginary guy who shot 50 other guys because he claimed they were terrorists and threatening his nation is just the same as V killing off 50 dragons claiming they were evil and would threaten his family.

If I weren't too lazy, I would search for the strips showing Miko getting the stick from our favorite ingame lawyer (no, not the sylph :P). ;)