Gloria - Even Utopia Needs Maintenance

[Xathan]

I'm going to be honest here LD - I've loved Gloria so far, but I'm having a huge trouble reconciling the flesh-suits with everything else too. Part of it is what Sparkle mentioned, but a big part of my own difficulty here is that it forms a major aesthetic dissonance - if I'm picturing a Randian dream-world/capitalist paradise, I picture bright, clean colors mixed with neon advertisements and flashing marquees and glitz and glam, the 50's style we could imagine on Rapture prior to it going to all, all that lovely stuff...and then I try and picture people walking around that wearing flesh-suits, and the image just doesn't form.

How obvious is it that these outfits are made out of human skin? Are faces intact? Fingers? Hair? other distinguishing features? Or are they just like somewhat pale leather suits that happen to be made with human skin? The latter is something I can reconcile. The other is just very hard to mesh in my head.

[Steerpike]

What if people like gangsters and fiendish arch-criminals and the most outre decadents (which, come on, with all the wealth going around in Gloria, there must be a few of, even if "work hard and be content!" is the standard ideology) were into flesh-suits?

[Xathan]

If people wearing the flesh suits are bad - not in the capital E gar-blahrgle EVIL way, but in the "represent the wealthier parts of the criminal element" - that'd be something I'd be able to more easily rationalize. :P

[LD]

There certainly are class divisions. The old money v. new money divide as discussed above exists. Although taxation is sparse, other controls on the agglomeration of wealth exist.

Gloria encourages investment and spending, so the rich either buy gadgets or they hire servants or they start new businesses. The rich in Gloria don't save in anywhere near the amounts that people in the real world save...because they are culturally acclimated to not giving large inheritances (since those are frowned upon) since their children must work.

Because the money is always circulating, there are less problems with huge wealth disparities. Gloria is a land of action and progress rather than stagnation and accumulation.

Regarding Education-
1. There is a lot of self education and education from parents to children; however, Gloria residents do know about the value of division of labor so they realize there is a large benefit in not doing-it-yourself.

2. There is no public school system per se... but see 5.

3. There are many many private tutors. The private tutors are preferred to the private schools because they can provide one-on-one instruction. Private schools can range in class size and in quality.

4. People hold fast to the belief that education is important in self-advancement and although the facilities may be of lower quality in poor neighborhoods, they still gain education. The schools have older editions of books, but they still have books. The motivation to learn exists even though the materials and the teaching methods may not be the most expensive.

5. Charter Schools The children who have private tutors have an advantage in that they have a greater chance to learn. The children in private schools are generally equal. The children who are at a disadvantage are the children whose parents have mental defects or who choose to work rather than to support the childrens' learning. This is where Gloria's Charter schools come in.

The Compassionate Conservative branch of Gloria's elite does believe in philanthropy. They don't want to suffer a proliferation of ingrates due to bad blood and poor parenting. So, they have founded meritocratic schools where students compete to stay in the educational pyramid. The schools start with 1000 students who attend for "free". The students pay their way by sweeping the halls and by completing tasks like sewing pouches or by scavenging scrap from trash heaps. Each year a certain amount of students are winnowed out of the herd until by middle school there are only 850 and by high school there are only 725. The competitive nature of the schools encourages the students to work hard.

Students who drop out enter regular private schools where they also work for their learning, but where they have to pay larger amounts and work longer hours--they gain valuable skills by working more--just not white collar skills. Or the students who drop out end up in a trade school or an apprenticeship; trash collector and trash sorter are respectable, if not well sought-after occupations. There is no auto-sorter or robots outside of the colour-work creatures...yet... Scientists may very well soon invent new machines that risk the creative destruction of jobs and that may lead to social problems.

6. Trade Schools and Apprenticeships are very important. Most Glorians have a mentor.

[Steerpike]

Cool.  So it basically is a crack in the meritocratic system, albeit one with an attempt at a patch.  A genius kid from a poor background who does well at Charter School can excel, but with two average-merit kids, the one whose parents pay for better schooling will have the advantage.

As the setting begins: even utopia needs maintenance!

EDIT: it does seem that if someone (namely a wealthy someone - perhaps a ruthless corporate sociopath) were able to transcend the cultural conditioning (easier when you don't give a flying f*ck what everyone else thinks) they could agglomerate enough wealth to form a "nasty dynasty" within the letter but not the spirit of Gloria's laissez-faire economic system.  Perhaps BBEG material?  A family of psychos who threaten to screw up the system itself by hoarding wealth (and power) rather than distributing it?  They'd probably wear flesh-suits :P.  Just a thought.

[LD]

>>it does seem that if someone (namely a wealthy someone - perhaps a ruthless corporate sociopath) were able to transcend the cultural conditioning (easier when you don't give a flying f*ck what everyone else thinks) they could agglomerate enough wealth to form a "nasty dynasty" within the letter but not the spirit of Gloria's laissez-faire economic system.  Perhaps BBEG material?  A family of psychos who threaten to screw up the system itself by hoarding wealth (and power) rather than distributing it?  They'd probably wear flesh-suits tongue.  Just a thought.

Yep. That's suits perfectly :)

You seem to have the feel down fairly well.

>>As the setting begins: even utopia needs maintenance!

Haha!

[LD]

Note: based on IRC discussions I'll be revising the flesh suits somewhat.

Update: DoppleSuits have been updated. I may work on the grammar and flow somewhat, but I changed their theme. The rich people buy essentially lab-grown suits to wear at certain functions. The people who want to seem rich may buy a Ripper Suit, which is human flesh and try to pass it off as a Dopple Suit- Ripper Suits are considered very questionable and people don't particularly like the people who wear them. Ripper Suits are relatively rare. Dopple Suits are worn only at specific functions because they are too expensive to reach damage.

I hope that fixes concerns. Some tweaks will still be done, but with luck that works.

[LD]

[ic=Money]
Money

- The Pound is the common unit of commerce. It represents a pound of blood, sweat, and happiness. The Libertarian counterpart is the Util. The Socialist Counterpart is the Favor, a paper fiat currency. A Pound itself has about a tenpenny of value if redeemed for the metals inside it.

- A solid Pound is a pound that actually is made out of a pound of value. It is worth about ten times that of a pound.

- Tenpenny is worth about 10 pennies. 5 Tenpennies equal one Pound.

- The Penny is the smallest official unit of currency and it is 1/50th of a pound. But, people have been known to create "Shaved Pennys" and "Half a Pennys" by splitting a penny in half.

- A Slug is a counterfeit Pound. A Penny Slug is a counterfeit Penny.
[/ic]

[ic=Bookkeeping]
In bookkeeping, Blue represents a loss. Red represents a profit.

To be "In the Red" is to be profiting greatly.
To be "Blue" is to be losing money. "Feeling Blue" is also a euphemism for being sad. The Blues are a type of music that laments the loss of money and success.[/ic]


Myriad Stock Markets

[ic=Penny Stocks]
The Penny Stock Issuances and Penny Stock Markets
-By paying even a penny, individuals can help fund a project. Penny Aggregators facilitate the issuance of Penny purchases and the annual distribution of dividends. Distribution is annual rather than quarterly due to the low possiblity of returns. Sometimes dividends are paid in commodities rather than Half a Pennys because the exertion to create Half a Pennys would make the project economically unprofitable.
    -The Humble Slake (Promising long-term investments, the Humble Slake has given standard income to families for hundreds of years, compounding interest and reinvesting dividends for an eventual payoff. Some parents encourage their children to invest at the Humble Slake when they are age 2 to 5 so that each of their pennies turn into a pound by the time the child reaches age 60. Of course, if the child dies before reaching 60, the survivors do not gain the income.)
    -PENNY MADNESS (A standard Penny Stock Market)
    -Bundler's Joy (A standard Penny Stock Market)
    -SRM - Standard Return Market (A standard Penny Stock Market)[/ic]

[ic=Truth Markets]T.I.M.'s Truth Markets, the Truth Markets
T.I.M., The "Incredible" Marquis made his money by creating and popularizing the Truth Markets about 40 years ago. The Truth Markets are places where people's reliability and honor is bought and sold and wagered upon. Many viewed them with suspicion when they first opened, seeing them as easily gamed by piling on accusations in a court of law. The Markets have proved even more stable than the Stock markets, however, since many false accusers are often found out and punished by having their own truth stock fall.

One thing that cannot be done on the Truth Markets is that no short selling is permitted. 20 years past, the Disreputability Scandal hit the markets where an alliance of several people agreed to drive their own respectability down by creating crimes while their friends enriched themselves. The friends then allowed the disreputable ones to live at their homes on their largeese. With no property to seize, no one could sue the disreputable ones and they profited at the expense of the market.

T.I.M. at the time took the frightening, and some said "Socialist" step, to outlaw short selling to prohibit future occurances of this dilemma. Over time, the restriction has become respected as a firm guard against rampant "Libertarianism" and an honest attempt to protect the integrity of the Market.[/ic]

[ic=Commodity Exchanges]
The Seaport Commodity Exchange
At the Seaport Commodity Exchange, Investments may be made in crop types; farmers and their representatives come from miles around pitching their particular geography and explaining why businessmen should invest in their land. Investments also, of course, go into Shimmer technologies, and in shipping ventures. A few adventuring companies have also made names for themselves, and are publicly listed- they are funded by businesspeople and out-kitted, then they distribute profits amongst their investors.[/ic]

[ic=Stock Exchanges]
Enterprise Stock Exchange (The Good Red Lady)
Painted in the forward-looking colour red, the Enterprise Stock Exchange, or the Old Red Lady has been the old standby in Gloria. Rising from the ashes of the burned Arterial Stock Exchange several hundred years past, the Good Red Lady sees the lion's share of stock listings. It is governed by a Board of Governors who include many famous luminaries and inventors. It despises the NGSX and ran an advertising campaign a few years back advocating: "Better Red Than Dead-Bereft of Investors", often shortened to "Better Red Than Dead.".

NGSX (New Glorian Stock Exchange)
General Stocks are listed on this relatively new competitor to the Enterprise Stock Exchange. The founding cabal of the NGSX claimed that their new exchange would break the Enterprise Stock Exchange's monopoly and this new one's lower rates charged to listing companies would lead to higher profits. The main drawback of the NGSX for the common people is that its transaction fees are rather high. Independent Traders rather prefer the Enterprise Stock Exchange.

Other Glorian Stock Markets (not in the City)
There are also notable competing Stock Markets in the city of Kierkegaard (Individualist's Market) and in the cliffs of Tientan (The Air Market).
[/ic]

[ic=Empyrean (Celestial) Stock Exchange]
Empyrean (Celestial) Stock Exchange

History
The former Celestial Stock Exchange was renamed the Empyrean Stock Exchange when the World's Richest Man, Titus Empyrean, purchased the exchange for the highest sum ever spent by a single entity in Gloria.

Ownership
Titus Empyrean, the owner, is considered one of the world's shrewdest businesspeople and it is rumored he is the world's most powerful man. Yet, he is rarely seen. It is said that he has a debilitating fear of open spaces and of sickness and murder by business rivals and that he spends his days ensconced in a tiny room filled entirely with feathers. He communicates with the outside world and purchases provisions entirely by Color-Work Creatures who deliver his desires. There are some who say Titus perished several years before, but a stream of prostitutes to his quarters and the stories they tell tends to insinuate that the man yet lives.

Description
The Empyrean (Celestial) Stock Exchange is a  bit different from the common Commodity exchange. The Empyrean Stock Exchange is more cerebral, more abstract, more philosophical. The Empyrean Exchange trades in predictions. Some believe its Seats can shape the future through use of Shimmer.

The Exchange sits on massive trigrams-- carved from stone as deep as a tall-ship mast. The stone was quarried and hauled from mountains to the city's east. At night, the molds glow with the after-light of prior filled shimmer-magic. The trigrams are moved when needed, rotating on a turntable that slowly, but reliably can be cranked around and around by a team of elephants and Color-Work creatures.

The entire structure, from the color-work creatures at its base, to the trigrams themselves, to the magic and light at their summit, glows with neon lights as the trades conduct- every night from darkfall until daybreak.

The predictions that are traded in can only be afforded by the richest of Gloria's citizens. Whether or not a storm will ruin the crops in coastal regions can be effected-- people buy and sell possibilities during set bidding periods of days, weeks, months. The winning bid will then shape the prediction of the Seats (or the traders/mystics who operate the massive trigrams and who manage the Exchange's massive stores of excess shimmer), and often-- the wish will happen; or else there will be a refund.

The large magical trigrams are reputedly the strongest in all of Gloria.[/ic]

[sparkletwist]

I find it interesting, and perhaps somewhat contrary to the "spirit" of Gloria, that there is an official currency, particularly one whose face value is higher than the value of the metal within. This seems more like central banking, fiat money, and the sorts of concepts that good, enterprising people of Gloria would be strongly opposed to. After all, when one uses fiat money, one is placing one's faith in an artificial construct that can be manipulated by the government, rather than relying solely on the market and the intrinsic value of the media of exchange.

[Steampunk Knight]

Titus Empyrean, the owner, is considered one of the world's shrewdest businesspeople and it is rumored he is the world's most powerful man. Yet, he is rarely seen. It is said that he has a debilitating fear of open spaces and of sickness and murder by business rivals and that he spends his days ensconced in a tiny room filled entirely with feathers. He communicates with the outside world and purchases provisions entirely by Color-Work Creatures who deliver his desires. There are some who say Titus perished several years before, but a stream of prostitutes to his quarters and the stories they tell tends to insinuate that the man yet lives.

A question, if Titus has a debilitating fear of sickness and murder by his rivals, why does he allow a steady stream of prostitutes into his presence?

Now I don't know where you are going with this character, but to me it seems that he would a cloistered harem or a regular concubine, someone that he can control and ensure that they are not an assassin or a carrier of any illness.  What you have so far , a revolving door of prostitutes doesn't seem to fight a person who is a afraid illness or assassination.  But that is just my two cents.

Also there is a very Howard Hughes vibe from Titus, don't know if that is a way you are going, but would make a nice bases.

[LD]

>>I find it interesting, and perhaps somewhat contrary to the "spirit" of Gloria, that there is an official currency, particularly one whose face value is higher than the value of the metal within. This seems more like central banking, fiat money, and the sorts of concepts that good, enterprising people of Gloria would be strongly opposed to. After all, when one uses fiat money, one is placing one's faith in an artificial construct that can be manipulated by the government, rather than relying solely on the market and the intrinsic value of the media of exchange.

It's a worthy point for debate. However, fiat money is relying on the market to give it value, which is a very Glorian concept. To some extent, capitalist economies couldn't have the economy we have today without the move to fiat money-we'd have been crucified on a cross of gold, so to speak because there isn't enough of Gold or Silver to go around. Now, suggestions to fix that would be to keep chopping the golden and silver coins in half to keep them exactly equivalent-- but every society throughout time has used money as a representational object to some degree. Even the Romans' coins were devalued. And the US may have started on a gold standard, but then they started using Silver too, If I recall properly. And also, if the coins had too much intrinsic value then you'd have problems like the US now faces with corn ethanol... you can either EAT the corn or your can melt it down to use as fuel... And the more you melt down, the less you can eat, so you get massive inflation.

The value of money in Gloria isn't based on a particular metal like gold or anything though. I think they would see that as too easily manipulated--e.g. Find a seam of some ore and you're suddenly a millionaire if you're smart and don't flood the market all at once. So Gloria in that sense rejects the pre-Fiat direct-convertibility regime of monetary exchange.

The value of money in Gloria instead is based on the industry of the entire populace, which can be measured by the strength of Gloria's productivity-it's GNP so to speak. While GNP can be fiddled with (as the West often accuses China of doing), it can also be estimated by auditors and auditing houses, which scrupulously inter-rate each other like Moody's v. Standard and Poor, etc..

I don't know if Gloria has invented currency trading though, which is to some extent how dollars and pounds and euros are valued today--in relational terms. It may make sense to have if each individual city in Gloria has its own currency based on the industry of its populace, but then that creates problems of arbitrage. For simplicity's sake, I think the entire country of Gloria has a currency that is based on the GNP productivity of its citizens--what they produce and trade in an entire year averaged out by the population's number then divided by the amount of wealth in circulation.

If I went to a virtual economy where there are no physical manifestations of wealth, I could avoid many of the problems of debt and the government mint inflating things, but Gloria doesn't have that technology.

I think it's impossible to work around a need for a central mint that would produce some sort of currency. Barter economies can't exist on the large scale.

Options I saw:
1. Barter - Can't support a large, complex economy with stock exchanges.. at least it would be very chaotic managing the conversion rates and different things mean different amounts of money to different people. Not impossible, but it's difficult.
2. Ore Standard - Glorians see as too manipulable.
3. Fiat Currency Based on Currency Trading - A possible solution. The current World economy is based on this.
4. Fiat Currency Based on GNP - Gloria's solution. It's measurable and people know how much everything is worth divided by the amount of people. You have a more productive society with more market transactions, you increase the value of wealth for everyone.

I'm open to some economics suggestions, but the above is my best attempt to address the issue.

[LD]

Titus Empyrean, the owner, is considered one of the world's shrewdest businesspeople and it is rumored he is the world's most powerful man. Yet, he is rarely seen. It is said that he has a debilitating fear of open spaces and of sickness and murder by business rivals and that he spends his days ensconced in a tiny room filled entirely with feathers. He communicates with the outside world and purchases provisions entirely by Color-Work Creatures who deliver his desires. There are some who say Titus perished several years before, but a stream of prostitutes to his quarters and the stories they tell tends to insinuate that the man yet lives.

A question, if Titus has a debilitating fear of sickness and murder by his rivals, why does he allow a steady stream of prostitutes into his presence?

Now I don't know where you are going with this character, but to me it seems that he would a cloistered harem or a regular concubine, someone that he can control and ensure that they are not an assassin or a carrier of any illness.  What you have so far , a revolving door of prostitutes doesn't seem to fight a person who is a afraid illness or assassination.  But that is just my two cents.

Also there is a very Howard Hughes vibe from Titus, don't know if that is a way you are going, but would make a nice bases.

Thank you. That's a good point you make about his visitors. The reason I added it in was-you guessed correctly-the Howard Hughes reason. I didn't want him to be a direct analogue because he was the inspiration I had for the fellow.

Your solution of a harem makes some sense, but I want him to seem a bit shady in the sense of sampling many flavours and Glorian Women are generally too independent to cloister themselves away. (Although some would do it for the money...most wouldn't want to limit their opportunities so much).

The solution might be to add some detail to the description regarding the extensive screening process and medical check-ups that his visitors undergo?

The fear of assassination is more difficult to address, but I think his Vice of lack of Chastity overcomes the fear. The Virtues/Vices system plays a large part in Gloria.

[SabrWolf]

The fear of assassination is more difficult to address, but I think his Vice of lack of Chastity overcomes the fear. The Virtues/Vices system plays a large part in Gloria.

This particular part of your last post had me rolling in my chair with laughter!

This quote translated like this in my brain, "He's so horny he forgets that he's terrified of being killed."

On a constructive note: I don't think I realized just how important the Virtues/Vices were in Gloria until you posted this. I'll have to keep that in mind while we're playing because I definitely want to immerse myself in this system (as it's striking me more and more like it's going to promote a very intensive rp style from everyone playing).

[sparkletwist]

However, fiat money is relying on the market to give it value, which is a very Glorian concept.

No, fiat money relies on the government to give it value. That's why it's fiat money. If it were solely up to the market, the money would only be worth the value of the metals that made it up. The greater exchange value is only because the government mandates that it will be of greater value. Note that this also means that the whole idea of fiat money is pretty much nonsensical if the government doesn't significantly interact in the economy, because then it would have no reason to impose anything on anyone, except maybe to ensure that exchanges were taking place for their fair value-- e.g., punishing people who shave little bits off coins or engage in other hijinks.

there isn't enough of Gold or Silver to go around

Any amount of gold or silver works as a medium of exchange if the society accepts paper money. That is to say, not paper fiat money, but money that is a more convenient representation tiny amount of gold or silver. You might need a month's wages to get an ounce of it, but you could get it, and it'd be fully redeemable.

The value of money in Gloria isn't based on a particular metal like gold or anything though. I think they would see that as too easily manipulated--e.g. Find a seam of some ore and you're suddenly a millionaire if you're smart and don't flood the market all at once.

I could see this being a topic of contention in Gloria. Some would argue your side. Others would argue that it requires work to mine the gold, so a flood is unlikely, and the labor that is being performed and the gold being extracted is enriching the economy, so it is a valuable service that should allow one's personal wealth to grow.

it can also be estimated by auditors and auditing houses, which scrupulously inter-rate each other like Moody's v. Standard and Poor, etc..

What's to stop them from forming into a sort of cabal and manipulating the market, instead of keeping each other honest? Maybe this is what's happened-- who has the real power in Gloria?

I don't know if Gloria has invented currency trading though, which is to some extent how dollars and pounds and euros are valued today--in relational terms. It may make sense to have if each individual city in Gloria has its own currency based on the industry of its populace, but then that creates problems of arbitrage.

Again, this could be a divided issue. Some people think it's bad, others think it's a service and worth the profit that people who do it make.

I think it's impossible to work around a need for a central mint that would produce some sort of currency. Barter economies can't exist on the large scale.

That might be true, but that doesn't mean it has to manipulate the currency. It could exist solely to keep everyone honest, like I talked about before with making sure coins aren't debased or shaved off or whatever.

I'm open to some economics suggestions, but the above is my best attempt to address the issue.

I hope my thoughts have helped somewhat.

[Steerpike]

Forgive my ignorance, but why does fiat money mean that the government *must* interact with the economy?  Can't we imagine a government which prints notes and declares them legal tender but doesn't tax its populace or plan its economy to any significant extent?  Essentially the "government" here is just a glorified central bank without the rest of the state apparatus.  My economic knowledge is limited, but this seems possible to me.

EDIT: alternative?  Sort of?  Here private banks, not governments, are the ones issuing money.  Maybe I'm not understanding this correctly, but can't the money issued by said banks (i.e. banknotes) still be representative rather than intrinsic?