what's the feeling of the New Star Trek?

[Ishmayl-Retired]

(4) Vulcan and a blue sky. FYI, Vulcan is a desert planet with only minor bodies of water. Considering that the blue color of earth's sky result from light being reflected by the oceans, it's pretty obvious that Vulcan cannot possibly have a horizon spanning blue firmament.

Errr, not to be a bastard nit-picker, but that (^) ain't why the sky is blue... Look up "Rayleigh scattering."  

[Ra-Tiel]

[spoiler]

[...] According to The Making of Star Trek, the Enterprise was built on Earth but assembled in space. [...]

Second, is Red Matter and 'Black Holes' any less BS that revolving around a sun to go back in time? [/quote][...] The Star Trek novel Spock's World offers the explanation that the "moon" appearing in the Vulcan sky in "Yesteryear" and the original cut of Star Trek: The Motion Picture was actually the sister planet of Vulcan, called T'Khut. This theory is widespread in other non-canonical works like Star Trek Maps, Star Trek: Star Charts and The Worlds of the Federation. [...][/quote]

[spoiler=Plot]

Actually, Spock wanted Kirk off the ship because Kirk posed a problem for morale. His very presence was a beacon for those who questioned Spock's command. Further, as was proven in the movie, Spock was emotionally unstable and thus prone to giving weird commands.

supermassive black hole[/url] that eats the galaxy?

On a further note: the paragraph about the weak tidal in a supermassive black hole don't apply to the black holes shown in the movie. These are simply not of sufficient size (which is required to reduce the tidal forces on entering objects).

An additional glitch in the last scene: the Enterprise is already torn apart by the gravitational pull of the black hole, but no character experiences any inconvenience of any sort? :huh:

It was alluded to through out the movie, including the bit about Uhura not being assigned to the Enterprise because it would show 'favoritism.' There could have been deleted scenes where their love was emphasized more, perhaps they cut that along with the Klingon fleet being destroyed.

[Ra-Tiel]

Errr, not to be a bastard nit-picker, but that (^) ain't why the sky is blue... Look up "Rayleigh scattering."

I stand corrected.

However, even then Vulcan's sky prolly won't be blue because of

a) continuity (afaik in no show Vulcan's sky has been shown as blue at daytime)

b) a different composition of atmosphere



EDIT: And even in a thinner atmosphere, Kirk and Zulu would have been burned to ashes by the unprotected atmospheric entry. After all, there was enough air to allow parachutes to work (not to mention that the jerk when the parachutes finally opened should have probably broken their spines/necks or at least given them a lethal trauma - after all, they were falling at what, 1000m/s?).

[brainface]

Ra-Tiel:
Dude, I get that you didn't like the relationship in the movie, but please tone down your language--you're crossing over from "heartfelt rant" to "crass" here.
[/mod hat]

[Stargate525]

[spoiler]
Alright, a refutation:

On Vulcan's sky: It's been red, yellow, and non-exiastent in respective showings. There has never been a consistency here, so why don't we just chalk it up to yet another of the choices for its possible composition?

I can't really remember how much of it intact you see in the movie while it's on the ground, but really? They have inertial dampeners, artificial gravity, etcetera. Is a little thing like structural integrity a problem? Not to mention that you don't have to bother with spacewalks, containing the atmosphere, blah blah blah.

On Black Holes: Sorry, you're wrong. A wormhole is two black hole geometries attached at their bottoms. It's highly unlikely that this could happen, but it is possible. Unfortunately again for your rants, Red Matter has a precedent, as Romulan ships are POWERED BY ARTIFICIAL SINGULARITIES. Again, you're complaining about the dust in a septic tank, as far as technological bull.

On the Narada: Do you know what a storage facility is? Why yes, it's a large hollow space inside the ship! Who would have thunk it? As a mining vessel, it does not necessarily have to have its own processors; it's a mining ship, not a smelter. But then again, we don't see toilets on any of the ships; does that mean they aren't there?

On Delta Vega: Yes, they did move it, but no, it's not a problem:

[ic]According to writer Roberto Orci, the part of the mind meld sequence in which Prime Spock sees the destruction of Vulcan was meant to be "as impressionistic for a general audience." The idea was that Spock saw the planet's destruction through "a telescope or some other type of measuring device," but showing it that was on-screen "isn't very cinematic."[/ic]

On Jettisoning: Spock is pissed. Kirk has demonstrated that he can get to places where he shouldn't be (on a ship in orbit, for instance, and this is later confirmed by beaming in). Logically, the best way to ensure that Kirk does not interfere is to get him off the ship.

He's also not supposed to be ON the ship, thereby making him, technically, an intruder.

On Uhura and Spock: That was a kiss, for God's sake. Have you been watching mass media recently? I've seen more explicit stuff on evening TV. Consider how Uhura got onto the ship, and there is your leadup.

On Tearing apart: Where does it say the ship is being torn apart? It's merely slightly past the hole's gravity well where it can't get out.

On The spacejump: Those are futuristic spacesuits. Those flames on them? That's friction. They're obviously able to withstand the heat, and the friction reduces them to terminal velocity.  
[/spoiler]

[Ishmayl-Retired]

This is a really weird argument.  I mean, I get being annoyed that they're breaking the laws of traditional physics, but when it comes to black holes, wormholes, and warp speed, guess what?  We're long past traditional physics and moving solidly into theoretical physics.  Which, really, I think gives a bit of license to play with for the sake of drama.  Do you get this pissed off with every sci-fi book you read?  That's not meant to be bastardly, I just get the feeling that you're not much one for sci-fi "implausible but not impossible" scenarios....

[Kaptn'Lath]

I do wish they would use some other motivations/plotlines  than "Bad Guys tries to Destroy the Earth". Star Trek wasn't just about "Saving the World" it was about saving/preserving the "higher" principles of Humanity.



.

[Stargate525]

I do wish they would use some other motivations/plotlines  than "Bad Guys tries to Destroy the Earth". Star Trek wasn't just about "Saving the World" it was about saving/preserving the "higher" principles of Humanity.

Well, Generations didn't. Khan didn't. Search for Spock Didn't. Final Frontier and Undiscovered Country didn't. Insurrection didn't.

In fact, the majority of them don't involve Earth peril at all.

[Ra-Tiel]

First of all, I found a very good site summarizing all my issues with the movie far better than I could have: http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies/inconsistencies-trekxi.htm

[spoiler=Anyway...]

On Vulcan's sky: It's been red, yellow, and non-exiastent in respective showings. There has never been a consistency here, so why don't we just chalk it up to yet another of the choices for its possible composition?

If you take a look at the pictures of Vulcan in the Memory Alpha article you can see that while the individual color varies the general theme stays the same. Reds and other sand tones are dominant. And a clear blue sky just doesn't fit in. If we go by what Ishmayl posted earlier we must conclude that the atmospheric composition of Vulcan must be identical to Earth's - otherwise the sky would need to be a different color. However, this clearly contradicts the fact that Vulcan has a thinner atmosphere.

I can't really remember how much of it intact you see in the movie while it's on the ground, but really? They have inertial dampeners, artificial gravity, etcetera. Is a little thing like structural integrity a problem? Not to mention that you don't have to bother with spacewalks, containing the atmosphere, blah blah blah.

[spoiler=Pretty much the whole ship][/spoiler]

And yes, structural integrity is a problem, considering how often it fails in the various shows from even the slightest problems. Would you really want to risk the construction of the whole ship? What do you thing would happen to the saucer section and the internal structure of the ship if the artificial gravity only failed for 10s? How about the warp nacelles and the pylons? A power outage or field generator failure for even a few seconds could ruin weeks or months of construction work.

True, there are support beams. But the proportions of the ship don't lend themselves to the conclusion that the weight and structure is distributed in a way so that the whole ship can be supported on only like nine points.

On Black Holes: Sorry, you're wrong. A wormhole is two black hole geometries attached at their bottoms. It's highly unlikely that this could happen, but it is possible.

No, no, and no again. You need to connect a black hole and a white hole. However, these so called "Schwarzschild wormholes" are highly unstable, only existing for as long as they don't interact with any matter:

Unfortunately again for your rants, Red Matter has a precedent, as Romulan ships are POWERED BY ARTIFICIAL SINGULARITIES. Again, you're complaining about the dust in a septic tank, as far as technological bull.

Which, however, is not the same. The black holes generated by red matter are not permanent and seem to disappear shortly after they swallowed their "intended target" (as can be seen by the lack of any lingering effects after Vulcan is destroyed). The artificial quantum singularities used by Romulan capital starships cannot be deactivated and further aren't shown to swallow its surroundings on destruction (or have you seen a single D'deridex being swallowed by its engine in any of the TV shows?).

On the Narada: Do you know what a storage facility is? Why yes, it's a large hollow space inside the ship! Who would have thunk it? As a mining vessel, it does not necessarily have to have its own processors; it's a mining ship, not a smelter. But then again, we don't see toilets on any of the ships; does that mean they aren't there?

First, in the Star Trek universe capital mining ships generally do have facilities to process the mined materials. After all, if the ship processed the materials on site it can achieve a much higher efficiency because unwanted products can be instantly eliminated and the whole "harvest" can be refined into a denser form or one that's easier to transport.

Second, I meant the massive empty space inside the Narada containing all those small platforms. The platforms where Nero and Kirk fought. This was basically dead space that couldn't be used for anything else. Why would an engineer that wanted to build a highly efficient mining vessel waste so much space - even more, dead space that would still have to be supported by the ship's life support systems (atmosphere, pressure, temperature, radiation shielding, etc. etc.)?

On Delta Vega: Yes, they did move it, but no, it's not a problem: [...]

This explaination is even more dumb than I could ever imagine. There are misleading and confusing the audience on purpose. Why didn't they just show the scene on a monitor or something? Or from space (again)?

On Jettisoning: Spock is pissed. Kirk has demonstrated that he can get to places where he shouldn't be (on a ship in orbit, for instance, and this is later confirmed by beaming in). Logically, the best way to ensure that Kirk does not interfere is to get him off the ship.

And to remove him from where you can have an eye on him? That's not logic, that's stupid. If you are suspicious of someone you want to keep him someplace where you can observe him, and not put him somewhere where he can do something that you can't observe or control. And last but not least, what would have happened to Spock if Kirk had died on Delta Vega?

He's also not supposed to be ON the ship, thereby making him, technically, an intruder.

And what do you do with intruders? You put them under arrest and interrogate them later. But you do not maroon them in a lethal environment. I can see the Klingons doing that ("if you survive this trial you can walk away") or the Romulans ("aren't we being nice? instead of putting you in a dark prison cell we allow you to freely walk around on this planet"). But not the fancy pants goody-two-shoes UFP.

On Uhura and Spock: That was a kiss, for God's sake. Have you been watching mass media recently? I've seen more explicit stuff on evening TV. Consider how Uhura got onto the ship, and there is your leadup.

I haven't watched almost any TV for almost 2 years now and really, I don't miss it. Still, when she's kissing and caressing Spock in the turbolift the state of intimacy in which their relationship already is comes to the viewer as a complete surprise. There hasn't been any obvious indication before that there might be anything more than a healthy friendship going on between them.

On Tearing apart: Where does it say the ship is being torn apart? It's merely slightly past the hole's gravity well where it can't get out.

Where does it say that? How about the walls, frontpanel and ceiling being ripped open by the black hole's gravitational pull? :?:

On The spacejump: Those are futuristic spacesuits. Those flames on them? That's friction. They're obviously able to withstand the heat, and the friction reduces them to terminal velocity.

They are so futuristic that they don't even generate the typical plasma screen around the entry body? Hardly.

Today the best reentry angle is between 5° and 7° - and even then the temperatures at the thermal shield reach in excess of 1000°C. Even with Vulcan's thinner atmosphere the temperatures would be significantly higher, considering that the reentry angle for Kirk and the others was a nice 90°. Further, they were already in an atmospheric region with probably comparable properties as Earth's, considering that the air was thick enough to allow them to talk and fight without problems and to carry their parachutes.
[/spoiler]

This is a really weird argument.  I mean, I get being annoyed that they're breaking the laws of traditional physics, but when it comes to black holes, wormholes, and warp speed, guess what?  We're long past traditional physics and moving solidly into theoretical physics.  Which, really, I think gives a bit of license to play with for the sake of drama.  Do you get this pissed off with every sci-fi book you read?  That's not meant to be bastardly, I just get the feeling that you're not much one for sci-fi "implausible but not impossible" scenarios....

The problem is lack of consistency. One moment the black hole created by red matter swallows a whole planet in mere moments, and in another scene another black hole created by the very same red matter sits there and does absolutely nothing to the ship trapped in it until the Enterprise starts firing at it.

I have no problem with wierd and unconventional stuff in scifi - for as long as it stays consistent throughout its whole appearance and doesn't turn around on its heel every other second in what it does and how it works.

[Kaptn'Lath]

Well, Generations didn't. Khan didn't. Search for Spock Didn't. Final Frontier and Undiscovered Country didn't. Insurrection didn't.

In fact, the majority of them don't involve Earth peril at all.

Sorry I didnt word myself very well at all. Not the movies in particular but rather the Star Trek Universe as a whole and in the context of the more recent work. Most of the Original Movies didnt, other than Voyage Home which I still love. I like Insurrection for being about the moral corruption in the Federation, maybe if Franks made/release it in the last few years the story might have reverberated with the audience a little more.

What I was referring to was the Dominion War, Nemises, Season 3-4? of Enterprise, End of Voyager Borg Threat, The Temporal Cold War, ect. I just seems more and more and more Star Trek is all "pew pew lasers in space/aliens blowing up Earth". And not "Through the mirror darkly.."

If they wanted to do "something different" and "new and edgy" they should have done a one-off movie for the Dark Mirror Universe (or whatever it was called i cant remember). Could have reinvented whatever the hell you wanted, lots of unknowns to fill and in all fits nicely in what was already presented. This is not a condemnation of the movie as i have yet to see it and still plan on, but rather i feel this would just have been a better way to go.

[Stargate525]

[spoiler]

If you take a look at the pictures of Vulcan in the Memory Alpha article you can see that while the individual color varies the general theme stays the same. Reds and other sand tones are dominant. And a clear blue sky just doesn't fit in. If we go by what Ishmayl posted earlier we must conclude that the atmospheric composition of Vulcan must be identical to Earth's - otherwise the sky would need to be a different color. However, this clearly contradicts the fact that Vulcan has a thinner atmosphere.

composition and thickness have nothing to do with each other. You can shovel off 50% of out atmosphere, and it'll be the same general composition as long as you shovel it off equally.

And yes, structural integrity is a problem, considering how often it fails in the various shows from even the slightest problems. Would you really want to risk the construction of the whole ship? What do you thing would happen to the saucer section and the internal structure of the ship if the artificial gravity only failed for 10s? How about the warp nacelles and the pylons? A power outage or field generator failure for even a few seconds could ruin weeks or months of construction work.

True, there are support beams. But the proportions of the ship don't lend themselves to the conclusion that the weight and structure is distributed in a way so that the whole ship can be supported on only like nine points.

Sorry bud, but Structural Integrity Fields throw this all right out the window. And by 'slightest problems' you mean large spatial disturbances and general power failure, then yes. I would hardly call that slight, but whatever.

And considering the fact that birds of prey can land completely unassisted, It's not a terrible stretch to assume that a Constitution can stand Earth gravity when completely shut off, unmoving, and propped up.

No, no, and no again. You need to connect a black hole and a white hole. However, these so called "Schwarzschild wormholes" are highly unstable, only existing for as long as they don't interact with any matter:

Fine. Whatever. You're obviously not going to be moved on this point, but it's funny since you have no problem with slingshooting around a sun for time travel, but have a problem with this.

Not to mention the currently confirmed properties of black holes like
* gravitational time dilation
* gravitational red shift
* gravitational lensing
* etc
that were all completely ignored in the movie.

Oh, confirmed eh? Have we been able to play with a black hole that I didn't know about?

I would LOVE to see this done in a movie and still retain any sense of drama or interest. Further, don't those effects only matter when looking from a black hole outwards? If that is the case, this hardly ever occurs.

Which, however, is not the same. The black holes generated by red matter are not permanent and seem to disappear shortly after they swallowed their "intended target" (as can be seen by the lack of any lingering effects after Vulcan is destroyed).

Not true. You seem to be under the impression that a black hole with the mass of vulcan would somehow destroy everything like some uber destruct-o-matic. This is not the case, considering it has exactly the same gravitational field as vulcan did in regards to every other body around it. That black hole will just keep orbiting Vulcan's sun for quite some time.

First, in the Star Trek universe capital mining ships generally do have facilities to process the mined materials. After all, if the ship processed the materials on site it can achieve a much higher efficiency because unwanted products can be instantly eliminated and the whole "harvest" can be refined into a denser form or one that's easier to transport.

The argument still stands that there could very well be such facilities in there. We don't see bedrooms, toilets, lounges, or the majority of the bridge either, so why aren't you complaining those aren't there too? Frankly, it didn't need to be in the movie, so it wasn't.

Second, I meant the massive empty space inside the Narada containing all those small platforms. The platforms where Nero and Kirk fought. This was basically dead space that couldn't be used for anything else. Why would an engineer that wanted to build a highly efficient mining vessel waste so much space - even more, dead space that would still have to be supported by the ship's life support systems (atmosphere, pressure, temperature, radiation shielding, etc. etc.)?

Hmm. Cargo bays are supported by life support... The space to which you refer acts as a shuttle bay, has a gigantic-ass door leading to vacuum, I can't really see what else it could be, because IT WORKS AS A BLOODY CARGO AREA.

And who said anything about highly efficient?

This explanation is even more dumb than I could ever imagine. There are misleading and confusing the audience on purpose. Why didn't they just show the scene on a monitor or something? Or from space (again)?

...Because that's not the way they decided to do it?

And to remove him from where you can have an eye on him? That's not logic, that's stupid. If you are suspicious of someone you want to keep him someplace where you can observe him, and not put him somewhere where he can do something that you can't observe or control. And last but not least, what would have happened to Spock if Kirk had died on Delta Vega?

Who cares whether you can observe him? He's quite literally incapable of doing anything to you, as he can't get on the ship while at warp. If he was on the ship in a holding cell, there is a chance he could. Hell, if it weren't for information from the future, it would have worked.

If he had stayed in his pod he would have been in no danger. The thing was obviously emitting a distress signal, and he was on an inhabited planet.

And what do you do with intruders? You put them under arrest and interrogate them later. But you do not maroon them in a lethal environment. I can see the Klingons doing that ("if you survive this trial you can walk away") or the Romulans ("aren't we being nice? instead of putting you in a dark prison cell we allow you to freely walk around on this planet"). But not the fancy pants goody-two-shoes UFP.

UFP hasn't been fancy pants goody-two-shoes since about the middle of DS9. Not a lethal environment. He can breathe, he can walk around, etcetera.

I haven't watched almost any TV for almost 2 years now and really, I don't miss it.

Doesn't matter about your opinions; That is a mild show of intimacy in a completely private setting. La de frikkin dah.

 

Still, when she's kissing and caressing Spock in the turbolift the state of intimacy in which their relationship already is comes to the viewer as a complete surprise. There hasn't been any obvious indication before that there might be anything more than a healthy friendship going on between them.

So you wanted them kissing and caressing each other MORE? When he is her teacher? The thing is kept hidden for a reason.

Where does it say that? How about the walls, frontpanel and ceiling being ripped open by the black hole's gravitational pull? :?:

Don't remember that, so I can't comment, but I think I would have remembered wall panels flying off and heading for the back of the ship. Remember, if they fall to the ground or behave normally, it's shaking itself apart, not getting ripped apart.

They are so futuristic that they don't even generate the typical plasma screen around the entry body? Hardly.

Today the best reentry angle is between 5° and 7° - and even then the temperatures at the thermal shield reach in excess of 1000°C. Even with Vulcan's thinner atmosphere the temperatures would be significantly higher, considering that the reentry angle for Kirk and the others was a nice 90°. Further, they were already in an atmospheric region with probably comparable properties as Earth's, considering that the air was thick enough to allow them to talk and fight without problems and to carry their parachutes.

*sigh* Many problems with this...

Problem 1: The Narada is in geosynch orbit, but not way out there. The mining cable is not several miles long. Therefore, the ship is very low in space, on the edge of the atmosphere. We've already got the technology to jump from near this height.
Problem 2: You're equating a several ton spaceship with a person. The amount of energy they have, even falling at the same speed, is tremendously different. A person simply isn't carrying enough kinetic energy to get to that 1000 degree heat you want.
Problem 3: a 90 degree entry is the best one, assuming you don't need to burn off lateral velocity, as you're passing through the atmosphere the quickest. The only reason spacecraft enter at 5 degrees is that that creates the most time to burn off their excess speed without skipping off the atmosphere.

The problem is lack of consistency. One moment the black hole created by red matter swallows a whole planet in mere moments, and in another scene another black hole created by the very same red matter sits there and does absolutely nothing to the ship trapped in it until the Enterprise starts firing at it.

'mere moments' being several minutes, or enough time for them to lament a bit, evacuate ten thousand people, and for Spock to do a nice half-mile dash. My guess is that the thing ate out the core and the mantle until the crust couldn't support itself. The dramatic bit took a few moments, but the entire process was much longer.

Considering the ship had already gone through one of those, we might conclude it would perhaps survive a second one.[/spoiler]

[Ra-Tiel]

[spoiler]

composition and thickness have nothing to do with each other. You can shovel off 50% of out atmosphere, and it'll be the same general composition as long as you shovel it off equally.

A thinner atmosphere would provide different scattering effects which would lead to a different coloration.

Sorry bud, but Structural Integrity Fields throw this all right out the window. And by 'slightest problems' you mean large spatial disturbances and general power failure, then yes. I would hardly call that slight, but whatever.

Curiously, in the movie there was not a single mentioning of such fields, while you basically can't watch a TNG episode without the structural integrity failing. And considering that the Kelvin and Enterprise are put through some heavy punishment I find that very interesting, possibly even leading to the conclusion that there are no such fields (yet).

And considering the fact that birds of prey can land completely unassisted, It's not a terrible stretch to assume that a Constitution can stand Earth gravity when completely shut off, unmoving, and propped up.

Perhaps because BoP were designed for atmospheric flight and landing? Think of the VOY episode where the ship is landed for the first time - iirc Janeway says that the Intrepid class is one of the few Federation ships designed for atmospheric flight and landing.

Oh, confirmed eh? Have we been able to play with a black hole that I didn't know about?

So you don't believe in mathematics?

I would LOVE to see this done in a movie and still retain any sense of drama or interest. Further, don't those effects only matter when looking from a black hole outwards? If that is the case, this hardly ever occurs.

Why would this hardly ever occur? These are the effects that are visible from outside the black hole.

Not true. You seem to be under the impression that a black hole with the mass of vulcan would somehow destroy everything like some uber destruct-o-matic. This is not the case, considering it has exactly the same gravitational field as vulcan did in regards to every other body around it. That black hole will just keep orbiting Vulcan's sun for quite some time.

Then how comes you don't see any lingering after effect after Vulcan is destroyed? No lensing effects? Not even the mysterious "space lightnings" that seem to accompany any red matter created black hole.

The argument still stands that there could very well be such facilities in there. We don't see bedrooms, toilets, lounges, or the majority of the bridge either, so why aren't you complaining those aren't there too? Frankly, it didn't need to be in the movie, so it wasn't.

Hmm. Cargo bays are supported by life support... The space to which you refer acts as a shuttle bay, has a gigantic-ass door leading to vacuum, I can't really see what else it could be, because IT WORKS AS A BLOODY CARGO AREA.

And who said anything about highly efficient?

Ask yourself: If I was an engineer building a mining ship, would I prioritize style or efficiency? Efficiency will generate more value with each mining run, while style will only increase the construction, build, and operation costs.

...Because that's not the way they decided to do it?

Which is, frankly, suboptimal borderlining outright stupid. Deceiving the audience in such a way can work in a horror/mystery movie, but not in a simple and straightforward SciFi movie. No matter what they say, the movie clearly shows that Delta Vega is in the Vulcan system. What's next? A moon called "Yellow rubber duck moon" orbiting Qo'noS?

If he had stayed in his pod he would have been in no danger. The thing was obviously emitting a distress signal, and he was on an inhabited planet.

And who would have picked up that distress signal? The guys in the Federation Outpost obviously didn't care, as they didn't show any sort of (re)action even after the time it too Kirk to

a) wake up
b) meet the monsters
c) run away from the monsters
d) get saved by Prime Spock
e) get a heads up on the current situation
f) walk/climb the rest of the 14 miles towards the outpost

Further, who says that the beasties would have let him alone in the capsule. These things look like they'd eat advanced dire bears for breakfast - I don't think a tiny escape pod would be much of an obstacle for them.

UFP hasn't been fancy pants goody-two-shoes since about the middle of DS9. Not a lethal environment. He can breathe, he can walk around, etcetera.

But this is not DS9. DS9 will likely never been built, anyways.

And not a lethal environment? Really, with predators like these that's pretty much given a lethal environment. Or wouldn't you think the shark basin in a zoo wasn't dangerous?

So you wanted them kissing and caressing each other MORE? When he is her teacher? The thing is kept hidden for a reason.

No, I wanted some scenes leading the audience towards that scene. Perhaps the two sitting with each other while eating, or meeting to do sports, or stuff like that.

Don't remember that, so I can't comment, but I think I would have remembered wall panels flying off and heading for the back of the ship. Remember, if they fall to the ground or behave normally, it's shaking itself apart, not getting ripped apart.

Stuff didn't fall off, the walls and ceiling were showing cracks and tear marks from the gravity. I'd think that the moment some reinforced steel or whatever is cracked open by gravity, that there would be at least some effect on the crew - but there was nothing. And I ask you: why? If some sort of dampener field was still holding, where are the cracks and tears coming from?

*sigh* Many problems with this...

Problem 1: The Narada is in geosynch orbit, but not way out there. The mining cable is not several miles long. Therefore, the ship is very low in space, on the edge of the atmosphere. We've already got the technology to jump from near this height.

Geosynch orbit does have nothing to do with the problems of reentry.

Problem 2: You're equating a several ton spaceship with a person. The amount of energy they have, even falling at the same speed, is tremendously different. A person simply isn't carrying enough kinetic energy to get to that 1000 degree heat you want.

:huh: And what do you think are shooting stars? Most of them are made of ice or stone, and only few weight more than some pounds. And yet almost none of them makes it to the surface. Guess why.

Also regarding kinetic energy, mass is only factored in with half its value, while speed is factored in with its squared value. At the last stage of the descent they were falling with speeds exceeding 1000m/s. Assuming a mass of 80kg for Kirk, that means his kinetic energy would be 40000000J. That's the same kinetic energy a 2030 ton space shuttle has when cruising with 6-7 m/s.

Problem 3: a 90 degree entry is the best one, assuming you don't need to burn off lateral velocity, as you're passing through the atmosphere the quickest. The only reason spacecraft enter at 5 degrees is that that creates the most time to burn off their excess speed without skipping off the atmosphere.

No, 90° entry is the worst possible because it puts the most stress on the heatshielding and structure. Even a 24th century shuttle from the Enterprise-D couldn't survive a 90° entry - which should tell you something.

'mere moments' being several minutes, or enough time for them to lament a bit, evacuate ten thousand people, and for Spock to do a nice half-mile dash. My guess is that the thing ate out the core and the mantle until the crust couldn't support itself. The dramatic bit took a few moments, but the entire process was much longer.

So you say that the black hole doesn't need some built up time or anything but instantly starts at eating away the planet? Great, how comes the Narada isn't torn to pieces in an instant then?

Considering the ship had already gone through one of those, we might conclude it would perhaps survive a second one.

How the Narada and Spock's vessel would survive the gravitational tides of the first time travel black hole is yet another pile of pandora's boxes imho.
[/spoiler]

[Ishmayl-Retired]

Wow...

Just for the record, everything we currently "know" about black holes is in a class of physics called "Theoretical Physics."  We have theories on them, that we have yet been able to test out.  Why?  Because we don't have any black holes in our back yard to play with.  Theoretical physics (being, you know, theoretical and all) lend themselves very well to science fiction, because they allow plenty of room to play.  You say "not believing in mathematics" is the same thing as "not believing in what a black hole can do?"  That's ridiculous.  Our mathematics showed us for hundreds of years that we were alone in the universe as far as other planets go.  Now, in recent years, it has been discovered that there are literally billions (and possibly trillions) of other planets circling other suns just in our galaxy.  Why is that different?  Because our technology has changed, advanced, and evolved enough to actually "know" these things now instead of merely "theorize" on them.  However, we do not "know" what black holes do yet.  We have theories, that are strongly supported by numerous facts, but we do now have pure knowledge on them.  Thus, saying "this cannot happen because this is how black holes are supposed to work" is exactly the same as, sixty years ago, saying "There are no other planets in our galaxy other than those in our solar system."  Stating theories as facts causes a lot of problems in the scientific community, and thus, is usually very highly looked down upon.

You said (and I quote):

I have no problem with wierd and unconventional stuff in scifi - for as long as it stays consistent throughout its whole appearance and doesn't turn around on its heel every other second in what it does and how it works.

every single one of them[/i] had a different reason for existence, and they all frakked with time and our understanding of it.  Because that type of "science" is purely theoretical and can stand a little bit of play.  Therefore, I'm done talking about factual theoretical science here - this is beyond ridiculous at this point.

As for Spock and Uhura, you said "There hasn't been any obvious indication before that there might be anything more than a healthy friendship going on between them."  

I'm going to have to go with a solid "Wrong," there.  The first moment they talked when everyone was loading up on the ships, my brother looked to me and said "So Spock's bangin' Uhura?"  And every look she gave to him afterwards confirmed that.  So "no buildup" seems to indicate here that you simply didn't catch the hints that were being tossed your way.  That's not meant to be offensive - I didn't catch it either at first.  But the fact that people did catch it, means that they did the job they needed to do.  If they had made it obvious (little hand brushes, batting eyelashes, other bullshit) so that the entire audience had been able to gasp, "Oh, they're in love!!!" then that would have been very "illogical," and Spock would not have done something like that. I think it was a very controlled, rational, logical way of handling their relationship.

I'm done with this.

[XXsiriusXX]

UFP hasn't been fancy pants goody-two-shoes since about the middle of DS9. Not a lethal environment. He can breathe, he can walk around, etcetera.

But this is not DS9. DS9 will likely never been built, anyways.

And not a lethal environment? Really, with predators like these that's pretty much given a lethal environment. Or wouldn't you think the shark basin in a zoo wasn't dangerous?
 

I hate to nitpick here, but your logic on the construction of DS9 is faulty. DS9 is the UFP designation for Terok Nor, a Cardassian built spacestaion. Terok Nor isn't a singlur station, but one of what seems to be a class of staions as shown by Empok Nor, a sister staiton. Terok Nor has nothing to do with the Federation until the beginning of DS9.

Here is the Memory Alpha page for DS9  DS9

[Stargate525]

I'm agreeing with Ish, you seem to be under a heavy bit of 'they changed it now it sucks' philosophy.

The only one I'm going to keep banging on about is the re-entry bit. What you're not getting is that they are moving WITH LITTLE TO NO LATERAL COMPONENT TO THEIR VELOCITY. They are going straight down. No space ship does this, no shooting star does this, it is essentially a skydiving just really high up.

The low orbit I mentioned means that they didn't have time to build up your ridiculous velocity you're spouting before hitting the atmosphere, as they were either right outside it and already being slowed by it.