Building the Underworld (Help Wanted)

[Matt Larkin (author)]

I think you're probably right.

I feel like three is probably the ideal number. It's got that mystical significance. Beyond that, it prevents the polarization we'd see with two kingdoms, while keeping things simpler than having a full real-world of dozens or hundreds.

I'd almost love to make it a single nation, but I cannot see reconciling the flavor of the structure of Chinese Celestial Court with that presented in the Celtic and other European ones--not without losing something of one or both flavors.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

So we if I'm to have three kingdoms, I need to think about their structures.

The Celestial Empire is ruled by the Jade Emperor. He has a whole rigid and complex bureaucracy of supporters beneath him.

The other two nations are kind of more up in the air.

I kind of like the idea of a queen for at least one. And I know I probably need an aristocracy to scheme, but I also know I want it to feel different than the house struggles I created for Logres (on Earth).

I lack direction for these nations.

Looking at the Irish myths, the king changes pretty often, as old kings are slain, maimed, or otherwise ousted. The Welsh fairy monarch seems to change only once.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

The more I think on it, the more the High King model seems to work. That is, that each island would be its own kingdom, but one king or queen would also rule over the whole conglomerate.

That would, however, eliminate the need or easy rationalization for separate Irish/Welsh deity-based major kingdoms.

However, that brings me back down to only two major factions in the Seelie realm:

The European faerie one
The Celestial Court (Chinese/Japanese/Korean themed one)


So I think I may need a third option

[Matt Larkin (author)]

So I need to look at what kinds of creatures are in the Underworld. That means going step by step through the bestiary.

Mortals
Probably only giants. Most in Jotunheim, with fire giants finding their way to Muspelheim.

Monsters
Mostly case-by-case. Not terribly important for the current discussion.

Spirits
Primordials and Cosmic beings would only be there if possessing someone, so they'd be case-by-case.

Ghosts (souls that failed to immediately return to the Paramatma) would naturally be drawn to Mount Mashu. Presumably in Niflheim or some upper region and they would pass through some kind of trial to reach either the shadows of Sheol or perhaps cross some bridge from the mountain to paradise fields in the Skysea (or maybe not, since the fae are reincarnations of humanity, it could still be considered the paradise of the dead).

So now the easy stuff is out of the way...

The Fae
The fae are divided into those untainted by the Cythrawl (the Seelie) and the tainted (the Unseelie). The Seelie will primarily live in the Skysea, and the Unseelie primarily in Tartarus.

They are extremely long lived but not immortal. Importantly, fae the die are usually reincarnated as mortals, while mortals are often reincarnated as fae. I have considered that there may be something insidious in this, that the fae leaders may somehow be working to keep up birth rates by stealing mortal souls. Maybe this has to do with the idea of changelings?

[ic=Seelie]
Animal spirits - the universal spirit of an animal exists in all members of that animal, but manifests in one at a time. I would guess most exist in the Cedar Forest. Maybe I need plains surrounding the forest.

Dragons (the Seelie kind) are water spirits. They would live in the sea (Patala) but could swim up waterfalls to the Dragon Gate(s?) to learn to fly. In the case of the Celestial Court, this would make them officials in the court.

Genius Loci - these are the beings called aes sidhe, elves, nymphs/satyrs, wights, kami, etc. (not these are general names for the entire class, not types of them)

Within this class we have elementals (sylphs, undines, salamanders, and gnomes), field spirits, forest spirits, marsh spirits, mountain spirits, sea spirits, attendant spirits, house spirits, and muses.

I think gnomes need some connection to the Seelie courts, but should live in Svartalfheim, which is probably inside Mount Mashu. They are turned to stone in sunlight, meaning they simply couldn't become day-to-day members of the court.

Salamanders maybe should be in Muspelheim?

I like the idea however, that all types of genius loci make up the main courts. I see elementals as the main movers and shakers here, the traditional faerie kings and queens. However, if Salamanders and gnomes were elsewhere, that would mean the court is largely Undines and Sylphs.

Sea spirits (merfolk) live in Patala in undersea cities. The classic picture.

House spirits (i.e. brownies) would make up large portions of the court, but probably hold lesser influence.

Attendant spirits (i.e. guardian angels) and muses would probably also be minor players, or spend most of their time on Earth.

Field, Marsh, Mountain, and Forest spirits are kind of classic nymphs (and undines are basically water nymphs). So they wouldn't have their own kingdoms, I don't think.

This brings me to a tangential question: are the fae races genetically races that breed true? Or would it, perhaps, seem appropriate if any genius loci can birth any type. Or maybe it's a choice? Or maybe it can even change? But type obviously matters, since it determines what kind of Unseelie a fae becomes.

Hybrids - fae with animal features
Arachnid - scorpion men. They were supposed to be guardians, possibly around Cedar Forest. No idea what to do with them. I almost don't like having something with no parallels, but I can't expel a major mythic creature.
(corrupted becomes an arachne)
bird (kinnara, siren) - probably as musicians in the courts
cow (shedu, Tarbh Uisge, Kudan) - guard shrines
goat (fauns) - woodland creatures
horse (centaurs) - woodland; settlements
monkey (vanara) - mythically do have their own kingdoms; I suspect they would have their own island kingdom

Metamorphs - Fae imbued with the animal spirit; shapeshifters
Cat (Cait Sidhe) - servants
Canine (Cu Sidhe) - servants
Horse (Pegasus/Unicorn) - probably outsiders
Seal (Selkie) - again, it seems to narrow, but I can't cut it; not major players
[/ic]

-So only sea spirits really dictate having their own kingdom, and I tend to think I'd have them answer to a Seelie Court anyway.


The type of Seelie determines the type of Unseelie if corrupted.

[ic=Unseelie]
Tainted dragons become orms (or otherwise typical wicked western dragons). The remain water spirits, and some live in the sea (sea serpents) while others live on land, but near water. However, some probably also live underground, or maybe even in Muspelheim. Despite being water spirits, western dragons also frequently are associated with fire.

Hybrids -
Arachnid (arachne)
Bird (Harpy, tengu)
Cow (minotaur)
Goat (Glaistig, se'irim) - in forests or deserts.
Horse (Nuckelavee)
Monkey (Kercopes) - evil cannibal monkeys. Somehow, they'd seem out of place underground, unless I add twisted forest. Which actually sounds like a good idea. I could also stick them in Cedar Forest.

Metamorphs -
Hellcat (Capula, Manticore, nekomata) - probably servants
Hellhound - servants
Water Horse (Kelpie, etc.) - corrupted horse shifter. To cause real trouble they kind of have to go somewhere like Earth or Seelie lands. You expect everything to be nasty in Unseelie lands, so much of the danger would be lost.
Hellseal - yeah, this was a stretch. The Fin folk are basically described as mean selkie, so I made them the corrupt version. I almost want to say selkies are undines and avoid all this.


Genius Loci - now the hard/interesting part
Sylph becomes Storm Fiend. Probably have to mostly live in upper air, upper Mount Mashu

Gnome becomes Ogre (troll, Daitya) OR Goblin. Both retain the vulnerability to sunlight. Goblins would be the largest group, probably, of unseelie forces gathered together. Fight constantly with Seelie. Ogres are probably among the most powerful Unseelie.

Salamander becomes Afrit. General evil fire spirit. Muspelheim/Tartarus, easy. City of Brass?

Undine becomes Water Fiend (Rusalka, morgen, kappa, jann). Again, some of their fear is lost if they only exist in Tartarus.

Field spirit becomes Monopod (one legged dwarf--yeah multiple mythologies have one-legged dwarfs). No idea what to do with this one.

Forest spirit becomes Forest Fiend (Oakmen, menninkainen). Live in forests and kill people. Sounds like Cedar Forest or underground forest.

Marsh spirit becomes a Ghost Light (Will O' the Wisp)

Mountain spirit becomes a Mountain Fiend (yuki-onna). A spirit of the mountain cold belongs in Niflheim. Easy.

Sea spirit becomes sea fiend (telchines, marid, nivatakachas) - underwater kingdoms at war with their merfolk counterparts. Easy.

Attendant spirit becomes an imp or a ghoul (rakshasa, Loathly Lady, jikininki, Bajang, aswang). Imps can fit into Tartarus as minor players. Ghouls could have their own kingdoms or be loners. Ghouls are spirits of cannibalism and disease, and thus pretty big in myths. So probably they're players in the grand scheme.

House spirits become bogies. Bogies scare people. For fun.

Muses become death omens (banshees) or succubae (or an incubus). Death omens are probably minor players. A succubus probably normally lives in Tartarus but escapes to cause nighttime mischief.[/ic]

[FREAKIN' AWESOME HORSE]

With the breeding thing, maybe you could have them breed true, but when there's a mixing between two different kinds of fae they produce either one of the corresponding Unseelie versions, or they produce some sort of hybrid that's somewhat but not wholly tainted.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Hmm, I meant that if a sylph and an undine get together could a child be a gnome?

I had never even considered the possibility of a goblin and a muse or anything like that. I suppose now I need to, though ;)

[Matt Larkin (author)]

After several days of mulling this over, I'm thinking I really want just the one faerie nation, with all the subnations. This would make the Jade Emperor the High King, with each island being its own sub-kingdom.

(I'm also thinking having a brainstorming thread helped.)

Opinions? Do I lose too much flavor in doing so?

What kind of fae would be powerful enough to effectively rule the world?

[Matt Larkin (author)]

So if I assume the Jade Emperor is the High King, I need to create a bureaucracy that both feels authentic to the mythology and somewhat original.

[ic=Seelie Kingdoms]
Collectively Known as Alfheim, Svarga, Paristan, Tir Nan Og, Kaluwalhatian

Specific Kingdoms:
Hsuan
Annwn/Avalon
Mag Mell/Elysium/Valhalla?/Aaru
Faylinn
Momur
Dilmun
Avaiki
[/ic]

That's only seven kingdoms. It seems like maybe I should have more islands. Or should I keep it small and manageable? I want it to feel fully realized, but Eschaton is already an enormous undertaking.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

So I think the Seelie Court will, as a whole be called the Celestial Empire.

The Emperor will sit at the top.
Each island will be ruled by a king or queen, which is really the minister of those particular lands.

Other ministers will exist, for many important offices, including natural phenomenon, like minister of storms.

Beneath them there will be minor court officials.

Beneath that are the common fae who may still have specialized roles, including patrons of various professions, specific land areas, and so forth.

Shades are basically beneath all that.


The big question becomes how one advances. I think it may have something to do with regulating the flow of souls. I wonder how much personal power the emperor should have. At the moment, I'm leaning to him being enormously powerful, personally as well as politically.

I also have to decide how long fae live. I decided they wouldn't be immortal (they're usually not quite immortal in most mythologies, but live ridiculously long lives). Since I want the idea of reincarnation of mortals as fae and fae as mortals to be important cycle, their lifespan can't be too long, but it should still be so long they seem immortal by human standards. I'm thinking maybe a thousand years at the upper end?

[Ghostman]

You could set it so that one must go through some specific number of incarnations as mortal for each incarnation as fae. For example, a single revolution of the cycle could be ten incarnations, comprising nine lives as mortal and one life as fae.

If you don't want to do that, you'll have to allow the number of fae to be many times the number of mortals, so that there is a rough balance to the number of yearly births and deaths to each type.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

That's a good point Ghostman, I hadn't given that enough thought. I don't know that I'd want it to be a fixed numerical value though (I mean you know you'll be a god every 10th lifetime sounds a little off flavor).

So if I don't want fae to vastly outnumber humans, I have to say that not every human death leads to a fae birth. Fae birth rates could remain low, since I already assume souls await rebirth within the paramatma.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

So I'm think the celestial emperor is Finvarra.
I think Fand will be his wife.

Niamh is queen of Tir Nan Og, which is either going to be an island or a name for the entire Seelie realm.

Arawn is king of Annwn.
Alchad is king of Tir Tairngiri
Bebo is queen of Faylinn. Iubdan is her husband.
Momur is ruled by Alberich.

Mag Mell is ruled by ?
Dilmun is ruled by ?
Avaiki is ruled by ?

[Hibou]

Not too much to say about the specific individuals.

The single kingdom with regions thing should be good - it'll give you room to have a schism if you ever feel like you want to change and/or spice things up later on. No saying the hierarchy and motives of the fae couldn't change. Don't worry too much about having a huge number of islands - just don't go too much into detail about the ones that aren't vitally important. List the others, give a bit of info about what they're like.

The flow of souls in your case seems like a pretty good advancement tool. I'd actually make the kings/queens and the jade emperor the only people who are immortal, through position instead of nature - or maybe both, if the position actually changes you. As for regular aging, I'd say give them 5-10 times the mortal age length. Don't forget too that you could have it so that fae won't necessarily live out their full lives for a variety more reasons than mortals - they might be "sacrificed" for mortal reincarnation reasons or simply because their favor/usefulness has dwindled. You could interpret the "favor" any way you wanted to.

[Matt Larkin (author)]

Not too much to say about the specific individuals.

The single kingdom with regions thing should be good - it'll give you room to have a schism if you ever feel like you want to change and/or spice things up later on. No saying the hierarchy and motives of the fae couldn't change. Don't worry too much about having a huge number of islands - just don't go too much into detail about the ones that aren't vitally important. List the others, give a bit of info about what they're like.[/quote]The flow of souls in your case seems like a pretty good advancement tool. I'd actually make the kings/queens and the jade emperor the only people who are immortal, through position instead of nature - or maybe both, if the position actually changes you. As for regular aging, I'd say give them 5-10 times the mortal age length. Don't forget too that you could have it so that fae won't necessarily live out their full lives for a variety more reasons than mortals - they might be "sacrificed" for mortal reincarnation reasons or simply because their favor/usefulness has dwindled. You could interpret the "favor" any way you wanted to.[/quote]
I'd be hesitant to make any of them immortal, though high enough levels of a certain siddhi can ceases aging. Perhaps the Jade Emperor has mastered that.

I'm thinking that maybe the emperor uses shades to fuel the reincarnation of fae. So maybe fae need his blessing to even have children? (Which of course necessitates a similar role among the goblin king of the Unseelie).

Good idea about death for other reasons. I'm thinking a normal fae has five times human lifespan (perhaps dragons should have more?), meaning they should probably expect 250 to 350 years.

[Hibou]

Needing his blessing is interesting. Would the Emperor be the kind of person to give a blessing to those who are steadfast, intelligent, and capable even if they go against him, or would he/she be the kind of person to give a blessing based on how much the people respect him/her?