Medieval Demographics Made Easy: For Non-Humans?

[Nomadic]

Well in traditional fantasy elves are masters of magic as well as lovers of plant based foods. I would see them being able to maintain a higher population because they are able to magically control plant growth.

[Tillumni]

Excess control of plant growth might go too much against the achetype of not messing up nature too much though, but yes. I can see them using magic to get the must out of foraging as possible, while doing as little damage as possible to the forest, depending on the magic they have avaliable.

[Ghostman]

They could simply have miraculous trees that bear extremely nutritious fruit & nuts. Easiest way to explain the popular high fantasy magical treehugger elfs IMO.

[Nomadic]

Excess control of plant growth might go too much against the achetype of not messing up nature too much though, but yes. I can see them using magic to get the must out of foraging as possible, while doing as little damage as possible to the forest, depending on the magic they have avaliable.

Typical fantasy elves tend to do things like shape trees, cause flowers to grow instantly, all that sort of extreme nature control. I wouldn't consider it tampering with nature since for their part they tend to be fey and thus a part of the world they are shaping (if that makes sense).

[Kaptn'Lath]

In some of what I am working on at the moment, I have Orcs as carnivores that hunt rather than gather, but will hunt and eat things Humans would not. This is not enough to support large populations so when this happends "WAARG" they go raiding any nearby sentiant race. Take their stored meats, grains and SLAVES. Meat they eat, the grain goes to the slaves. When food runs out, they eat slaves. Yes they eat other sentient races maybe even other Orcs. That is what makes the "Bad", they are not just green mean warmongers, They are cannibals. Not raging zombie cannibals, raiding viking cannibals.

For a savanna I say maybe 0.5/km2
For Woodlands maybe 1.5/km2

[Xeviat]

Thanks for the input Lath. I've found a few more numbers, and I've converted all the other numbers into people per square mile (since that is the measurement used for the original article).

Hunter-Gatherers
Arctic: 0.0033 person/square mile
Subtropical savanna: 0.166 person/square mile
Grassland: 0.066 person/square mile
Semidesert: 0.014 person/square mile

Nomadic Herders
Sahel: 8 people per square km (3.09 per square mile)

As you can see, jumping from hunter-gathering to herding nets a huge population jump, but still no where near the 30 people per square mile that marks the lowest end of medieval agricultural standards. Then again, I'm not sure if those population densities are tracked by only the "settled" or "traveled" land, or if it's an entire providence: Average Medieval population densities range from 30 to 120, but a square mile of farmland supports 180 people; this leaves extra space for wildernesses like unfarmable hills, mountains, and forests.

Here's some points gathered from my thoughts on the races, and from those posted here so far (and I'm going with Nomadic's suggestion: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Halfling, and Goblin):

Dwarf: Live mostly underground.

Elf (Wild/Wood): Live in the forest. Farm-style agriculture does not feel right, nor does domestication, but I could justify elves planting fruit trees after trees fall or after a fire. I could also see elves hunting predators and prey alike. Being as they seek a balance with nature, I could see them either practicing population control (only X children per elf pair) or perhaps their typical longevity and low birth rates are their control (which is why they suffer badly from war and habitat destruction). Using magic to heighten the output of their trees is very possible.

Halflings: "Traditional" leads me to look at Tolkien, but I think Tolkien Hobbits are just going to end up being small humans (who ate about as much as humans volume wise). It might be best to explore the more recent notions of nomadic gypsy style halflings.

Goblins: Lath's orc suggestion works best. Fast breeding, carnivorous, warlike. They will outgrow the land's capabilities, and thus expand outward and fight. The constant fighting would keep their populations low.

I cannot find numbers for population densities of forest dwelling communities, but I do have numbers on food production of different biomes, so maybe I can check my density maps against that and see if there's a correlation.

Also, do you think magical influence of something would double the food output and population supporting capability?

[Nomadic]

Also, do you think magical influence of something would double the food output and population supporting capability?

That would depend on how effective the magic is.

[Xeviat]

How much more production does Miracle Grow claim to get? Heh ... I'll check ...

I can't find any statistics on it, but my google-fu is notoriously weak.

[Kaptn'Lath]

Geography/Climate pays a big part in the people per square mile equation. One square mile of crop land in France/Ukraine produces much more than a square mile of crop land in Scotland/Poland. Fishing is solely dependent on Geography too.

Maybe the Races that live longer have slower metabolisms?

Dwarves are good at preserves? Jams, Smoked meats, canning? I still haven't figured out where the Dwarfs get their food. Maybe they eat a lot of bugs?

Traditional Raiding isnt the best when it comes to Food.

just some random musings...  

[Kaptn'Lath]

Geography/Climate pays a big part in the people per square mile equation. One square mile of crop land in France/Ukraine produces much more than a square mile of crop land in Scotland/Poland. Fishing is solely dependent on Geography too.

Maybe the Races that live longer have slower metabolisms?

I could see elves as masters of integrated vineyards and orchards. And magical augmentation as a must. Producing more food for less effort is what makes Elves a "master/elder race". 90% of Elves dont have to devote their time to growing food, magic does most of the work. If elves are known as magicians, scholars, craftsmen, and artisans they cant all be farmers.

Dwarves are good at preserves? Jams, Smoked meats, canning? I still haven't figured out where the Dwarfs get their food. Maybe they eat a lot of bugs?

Traditional Raiding isnt the best when it comes to Food. Need portable food with a decent shelf life.

just some random musings...  

I meant to edit the last post and accidentally Quoted it... :censored:

[Xeviat]

You can edit your last one to not include anything.

Maybe the Races that live longer have slower metabolisms?

Traditional Raiding isnt the best when it comes to Food.[/quote]

I wouldn't think Raiding would be their main source of food. But, raiding does two things: you get a nice supply of food, spoils, and slaves, but it also reduces your competitors; if a goblin/orc region once supported 2,000 goblins/orcs, and war kills off a thousand of them, then the area supports them better. Goblins, being the size they are, would be able to do this better because they would grow and breed faster: larger goblinoids would be a bit less chaotic and wild in order to survive.

The graph I have of plant-life based on biomes is not helpful; it's total mass of plant life, not edible plant-life. People don't eat wood.

I'm searching for archeological findings on population density. If I could find numbers in, lets say Mesopotamia both before and after the advent of agriculture, I might be able to come up with a reasonable number for how cultivation could improve advanced hunter-gatherers. Elves are one of the big issues here, but I'm growing to like the idea of wild elven orchards. Also, giving Elves a very fragile existence makes a lot of sense.

[Xeviat]

Ka-bump!

Since I just posted my dwarf thread, I'd like to discuss them a bit here. My dwarves are legitimate carnivores; they physically cannot digest plant fibers. I checked and true carnivorous animals get a bit of plant fiber in their diet, eaten to settle their stomach, but apparently carnivores tend to have shorter digestive systems and thus lack as large of a need for fiber to aid digestion. What little they need they will get from herbs used for seasoning and grains used in certain recipes (originated from cooks realizing that adding grains to things like sausages made them less likely to get upset stomachs).

Animals eat plants, or they eat animals that eat plants. It takes more pounds of grain to produce a pound of meat than it does to produce a pound of grain ... (that sounded worse than it did in my head) but the exact numbers seem to be in disagreement (I learned 9 pounds of grain for a pound of beef, and four pounds of grain for a pound of pork in my nutrition class, but websites are in disagreement, especially the website from the beef industry, as if I'd trust that). But, herbivorous animals can eat lower quality grain than people prefer to.

Either way, my dwarfs will raise animals for food. They will have learned agriculture from humans eventually, which allows them to grow more productive plants for their livestock. They probably won't have full fledged farms, as they live in mountains and hills, but they could seed pastoral land or cut steps into hill sides to grow a grain that requires little water.

Since they need to grow grain (either through agriculture or simply through grazing land) to feed their livestock, their population density will probably be less than humans. Assuming they raise something like pigs and sheep (which require less food than cows), I'm still looking at a 1 to 4 or 6 ratio. But, since animals can eat grass, and grass grows faster than wheat and corn (most animals don't eat the root), perhaps the number could be larger than 1/4th to 1/6th the human number?

Now, this is only for self sufficient dwarven settlements. I figure that the larger citadels will have enough production from their mines to buy grain from humans. But on the surface, I am now imagining dwarf herders moving their flocks from one side of the mountain to the other, with some farmers who produce grain to feed the flocks during the winter (or perhaps they cull the flock except for those needed for breeding and preserve the meat for the winter, and then restock the flock in the spring?).

I have numbers on population densities of herding societies (about 3 per square mile), but I think I would like something larger for my dwarfs. This makes me really wonder how dwarf cities work in other settings ... do they eat rocks?

Yes, I'm aware I'm thinking into this a lot. But deciding on evolutionary histories for my races helped me to come up with details I might have not otherwise, so I figure this level of realism will bring about ideas that could prove useful (if only to make my setting feel more organic).

[Xeviat]

Some bumps here. I know this is a long lost thread, but I'm revisiting it so I can actually get this project off the ground. I'm going to start with some rather simplistic assumptions to get some numbers and see if they work nicely.

Some thoughts first. I don't like the idea of excessive trade for food because a settlement that trades food out has to be producing surplus food. A city has a required amount of farmland surrounding it in order to support that city. If the city has excess food, the city is likely to grow (probably more because people will move into the city if food is affordable, as it will be when there is a surplus). Farms can sell their food since they grow more food than needed to feed their family, but the city that the farm is near would likely be the source for those farms.

So, for baseline assumptions:

Dwarf: Dwarves will eat the same amount of food as humans. I was originally going to say that they wouldn't need to eat as much meat as humans eat combined meat and plant, since meat is generally higher in fat and fat has more than twice the calories of protein and carbs, but plant fats are high as well (especially in nuts). Dwarf population density will be 1/3 that of humans; the human population density assumes some crops are used to feed livestock, so while dwarfs use all crops to feed livestock it shouldn't be as bad as the original 1/4th assumption (which would only work if humans ate nothing but grain).

Elf: I'm going to go with the orchard elves. In areas they have controlled for a long time, they have slowly replaced all of the trees with trees that produce fruits and nuts that they eat. My estimation will be that "enhanced gathering" could be 10 times better than traditional gathering, as the example herders were 3 people per square mile and medieval farmers are 30 people. Wikipedia says that the population density in the amazon rainforest was 0.2/square km through hunting alone. 2 elves per square km would be awfully small.

Halfling: Nomadic gypsie trader halflings won't work, since they don't live off the land and would more technically be a part of the population spread of whatever nation they were in. They could be an example of small people, and they'd at least be an exercise in a different village/town/city spread (I'd expect halfling nations to have fewer large settlements and more sprawl).

Goblin: They'll most definitely use the hunter-gatherer numbers I've found, modified for mass (half height means 1/8th the mass). The trick will be to make an estimation on population growth and how much time it will take for there to be X excess goblins so they raid.

In the end, I'm not sure how much faster or slower aging would affect population density, or if it would just affect population recovery after wars or disasters.

Thoughts?

[Ghostman]

In the end, I'm not sure how much faster or slower aging would affect population density, or if it would just affect population recovery after wars or disasters.

The pace of aging alone can't answer this question, you also have to factor in fertility and mortality rates. Figure out how long it takes for a member of each race to be able to bear children, how likely one is to actually reach that age, and how many children they can be expected to bear throughout the rest of their lifespans.

[beejazz]

Thought for dwarves: Fungal farming. Mines provide vertical space and darkness. Livestock provide ample fertilizer. The mushrooms could be a supplemental source of protein, or could be used to feed livestock.

Other thoughts: Magic for fatter cows (mud to flesh on livestock), exotic livestock, underground fishing for blind crustaceans, etc.