[Forum Philosophy] #13 - Races & Ethnicity

[Ghostman]

Is it that unimaginable that a world could exist where more than one type of intelligent life would develop alongside each other?

In fantasy, you don't even need to bother with plausible natural developments; miraculous origins can be applied if desired. For most worlds it's sufficient to create a reasonably balanced ecology. In more surreal settings even that can be ignored.

Of course, you have to maintain a balance; too many races (in some cases even just having more than one) can ruin certain setting tones. Very medieval/feudal settings for example can't have anything much more extreme than elves and orcs.

What do you mean by more extreme? Are you refering to the number of races, the size of populations, or their differences to humans?

[Superfluous Crow]

Hmm, all three possibly. It should be noted that I'm mostly talking about races available to players when i talk races; It's possible to have a dragon slumbering in some mountain in a feudal world, but you might run into some issues if you try to implement giant slug-men.

[O Senhor Leetz]

I've always thought that standard fantasy troupes do a disservice to the idea of race and ethnicity. More often than not, races become stereotypes of something in the real world. Mostly these are benign/comical, like the Dwarf-Scotsmen dichotomy. Some times, whether on purpose or not, race/ethnicity in fantasy becomes polluted with real world xenophobia and bigotry. It wouldn't be hard to argue that Tolkien, who is basically the starting point for most modern fantasy, injected (consciously or not) racism into the LoTR. The good guys are fair and beautiful men and women from the West, while the bad guys are dark and nasty from the East/South. Basically what I'm getting at is that I've found it very hard to create new races that aren't some form of modified stereotype. And even if I did develop an authentic "species" from the ground up, it would be inherently difficult to roleplay, unless the player fully empathized with this race, as its mind could potentially be so alien that it would be difficult to understand its motivations.

and don't even get me started on "half-" races... ;)

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Basically what I'm getting at is that I've found it very hard to create new races that aren't some form of modified stereotype. And even if I did develop an authentic "species" from the ground up, it would be inherently difficult to roleplay, unless the player fully empathized with this race, as its mind could potentially be so alien that it would be difficult to understand its motivations.

Why is it so difficult to just design a race physiologically and leave its mentality and culture out?  No stereotypes, no worrying about it being hard to roleplay.

and don't even get me started on "half-" races... ;)

What about them?

[O Senhor Leetz]

well, my slight rant aside, my basic argument was that far too often the easy was is taken in creating new races - this way being keeping a human mindset while only simply changing the physical appearance. Elves are graceful and pretty, dwarves are dour and stocky, halflings are short and whatever. What I mean is that in traditional roleplaying, elves, dwarves, halflings, etc. all think along the same lines, and the only difference is their physical alterations or some defining "mood" that belongs to their whole race, which I find silly. I dislike how humans are often presented as running the gamut in everything, but other races are pigeon holed, I myself am guilty of this.

Admittedly, a lot of my argument's validity depends on the setting - if gods made the races, as opposed to natural evolution, than the same mindset/different look approach works.

And as for half-races, I just find it somewhat implausible (not that this matters in fantasy really) that two totally different species, (as I would consider elves or humans or dwarves, for example, as different species, not different races) could create offspring. That would be like having a human and a chimpanzee (99% matching DNA or whatever they say) creating monkey-people. But that's just me ;)

[Polycarp]

Basically what I'm getting at is that I've found it very hard to create new races that aren't some form of modified stereotype.

why[/b] they think and act the way they do."  Stereotypes don't have a reason; a group just is hard-working, is dull-witted, or is deceitful.  If you make the stereotype and just leave it at that, that's just what you've made - a stereotype.  But if you can justify yourself and answer the big question why, you've gone further.

And even if I did develop an authentic "species" from the ground up, it would be inherently difficult to roleplay, unless the player fully empathized with this race, as its mind could potentially be so alien that it would be difficult to understand its motivations.

actually[/i] been inside the head of.

So don't try to be "alien," at least not with major/PC races.  Work with what you know - humans.  Treat races like humans, making "alien exceptions" only when necessary (for example, modifying the culture of a group of flying creatures to reflect the fact that they spend their lives in the air).

At least, that's my two cents on the matter.  And because you asked, I won't get you started on half-races. :D

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

And even if I did develop an authentic "species" from the ground up, it would be inherently difficult to roleplay, unless the player fully empathized with this race, as its mind could potentially be so alien that it would be difficult to understand its motivations.

actually[/i] been inside the head of.

So don't try to be "alien," at least not with major/PC races.  Work with what you know - humans.  Treat races like humans, making "alien exceptions" only when necessary (for example, modifying the culture of a group of flying creatures to reflect the fact that they spend their lives in the air).

Polycarp has it: we can try to make aliens all we want, but they're always going to miss something.  That something is the primal instinct that's so damn difficult to pin down for humans that of course it's impossible to come up with for another species.  So what you get instead is something that just makes too much sense.

I'm not saying people shouldn't make aliens if they really feel like it.  I just think when they dismiss the alternative as the "easy way" they're missing half the point.

[O Senhor Leetz]

very good points. you have me, that's all very true, and I suppose it is inherently/nearly impossible to create an truly "alien" race.

But, I still feel that we can do better when creating new races, instead of using genre troupes or conventions. I guess what I was really getting at was that we should challenge ourselves to create authentic, original races/species, instead of merely using slightly tweaked elves or halflings with wings.

[Polycarp]

But, I still feel that we can do better when creating new races, instead of using genre troupes or conventions. I guess what I was really getting at was that we should challenge ourselves to create authentic, original races/species, instead of merely using slightly tweaked elves or halflings with wings.

will not care[/i].

Well, I might care, but you get the point.

[Superfluous Crow]

Uh, this is a popular topic (not surprisingly perhaps).
When we depict other races, perhaps when we write campaign info in general, we have decided on a point of view which will most often coincide with the views of the Major Race, which, again, is most commonly humans. This is not necessarily bad; the human viewpoint is perhaps the one we understand the best. But this also means that when we view other races we will tend towards stereotypes, just like real life people who try to explain the intricacies of a far-away country.
While I'm strongly against the "one race one thought" design principle employed in D&D, it is not always entirely bad or inexplicable. In many settings, other races are rare or isolated and are therefore far too few to arrive at the same cultural diversity as humans; thus their cultural upbringing will vary little from individual to individual and they will exhibit common traits of personality. Not to say there won't be extraordinary individuals, but most will come from the same background.
While I agree that a human could never understand an alien mind in depth, I'm not of the belief that an alien mind is impossible to portray. Consider the animal; they don't think in the same way as we do, far from it, but don't you think you could roleplay an animal decently? Animal instincts, hunger, fear and cautiousness are things we can imitate even if we can't never feel them the same way. Yes, animals are comparatively simple, but the point still stands; the alien is not necessarily out of reach.
Many of my races qualify as alien, but of course they are based on the human experience to some degree or another. I always take great care to detail their cultural upbringing as well as their general psychology and perception. Hopefully enough so that people can understand them at least partly.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

While I agree that a human could never understand an alien mind in depth, I'm not of the belief that an alien mind is impossible to portray. Consider the animal; they don't think in the same way as we do, far from it, but don't you think you could roleplay an animal decently? Animal instincts, hunger, fear and cautiousness are things we can imitate even if we can't never feel them the same way. Yes, animals are comparatively simple, but the point still stands; the alien is not necessarily out of reach.

What's so different about animals from humans?  Humans are animals, we feel the same instincts, we just pretend we don't.

It seems to me "alien" is just another way of pretending that instincts don't exist so we can justify prejudices based on "being different".

EDIT: Sorry if I sound accusatory, this is just an issue that plagues me in any portrayal of non-humans.

[Llum]

I have to agree with SCMP on this one. I don't really think a true "alien" mind can be properly portrayed.

Non-human races can still be done well, and a decent approximation is possible.

That being said, I find nearly every single race is there for aesthetic reasons, or as LC said to portray the Other.

[Ghostman]

We should not assume that the modern post-industrial point of view, which sees ethnic divisions simply as superficial groupings arising from genes and culture, should necessarily have any relevance for fictional worlds. Certainly people of past times (and some contemporary people) viewed things in a different light.

Who is to say that races of Man might not be an accurate and practical concept in a fantasy setting? Mankind need not have evolved from apes - the first Men may just as well have burst out from a magical coconut. Different origins could actually be applied to ethnicities/races within the same species.

There could even be significant spiritual qualities assigned to divisions of ethnicity/race/species. For example, one group may have been created with the purpose of smelting the sacred ores of the mountain-god, another with the purpose of harvesting the bounty of the sea-god. To have these groups mingle and cross-breed, or even just move away from their homelands, could be seen as a corruption that will eventually doom them - and this could actually be true.

Even stereotypes could be justified with supernatural backing. A race might simply be incapable of acting in a particular manner, because that's the way it was created. When free will is limited or altogether absent, "realistic" diversity of a population may not be happening despite sufficient numbers and geographic spread.

[SilvercatMoonpaw]

Well that's a sufficiently different enough method that it's not so bad.  In case of that what I would still hate is if humans were given the opt-out.  Somehow there's always the idea that humans get to be the "special people" who weren't subject to the same restrictive designs as everyone else.

If you want to talk lazy design that's where it is.

[LordVreeg]

[ooc]
From the Celtrician Frontpage...

There are racial issues alive in Celtricia as well. Small Hobyts and the strong Orcash are the most numerous races in Celtricia, followed by the three original clans of the Humans, the ancient Omwo~ (Elven), the Klaxik (Dwarven), the Gnomic, and the Gartier. These races comprise the primary inhabitants of Celtricia that are within the civilized world.  Understand, however, that it is considered an effect of culture to be able to integrate and work with other races, especially in the North-West Cradle areas where Orcash live side-by-side with Omwo~.  Barabarians are tribal, integrated cultures are civilized. So in hyper-integrated cultures, race is considered much less of a divider than Guild or Country, however you will find many areas that hold to their own.

 

But this very disintegration of racial identity is another dynamic that needs attention.  The Omwo~, the firstborn servants of the Planars, are a race in remmision.  Many ancient writings point to the advent of humans as a replacement for the Omwo~.  The Stunatu, the Klaxiks, Gnomics, and Hobyts, were created to be workers, servants of others, back in the Age of Legends.  In the last five centuries, the humans, who were created to replace the Omwo~ as the stewards of the 'Waking Dream' in most older religious texts, have watched the Hobyts outpace and supplant them with a cheeful, hard-working smile.  And overshadowing that, the even more recent inclusion of many of the the Ogrillite races, the servants and tools created to defend the Cairnhold in the Age of Legends, and the bloody-handed soldiers of Arbor and the Dreadwing throughout the Age of Heroes and the early Age of Statehood, into the sunlit streets, shops, and even governments of today's Celtricia.[/ooc]

Races and sub-races in Celtricia were chosen and developed for a couple of reasons.

Taking the trope and spinning it around is a challenge in itself.  Omwo~ (Elves) are often more dour and serious than dwarves in my world, especially when dealing with the subject of race, as the original taxonomy of the races when they were created has changed drastically.  Races also have changed positions, in that all of the Sunatu (Hobyts, Klaxiks, and Gmonics) were created together as one racial group to be servants, and the ogrillites were created to be the troops of the servants of Anthraxus.  
Humans are not the populous, nation builder group that they are in the generic setting, actually, Hobyt's fulfil that best.  Hobyt's and Orcash are the most populous races, with Humans being third.
Similarly, all the races, humans included, have broken into culturally derived sub groups back thousands of years ago.

I use them to explore the ideas of racism and classism, as cultural integration vs Racism/tribalism is one of the major current conflicts in the setting.

To put it succinctly (to anyone who has not looked or thinks of Celtricia as traditional), Celtricia is the rare setting where all the players are hoping to play a Bugbear.