Magic design woes

[Lmns Crn]

Mainly venting here a little I guess! Partially also getting my thoughts straight a little, though, too!

Those hypothetical of you who've been monitoring the Jade FATE's development process far more closely than any human being actually has, you might have noticed that nothing has gone through half as many revisions as my magic system.

FATE is a system with many skills, each of which has a selection of stunts characters can learn; the stunts represent special tricks and techniques and areas of aptitude. I am doing my magic system entirely within the scope of the Mysteries skill and its related stunts (which I am having to write from scratch). Basically, if you have a decent Mysteries skill but no Mysteries stunts, you might have a working academic knowledge of magic or recognize it when you see it or have untapped natural potential, but you can't actually use magic. On the other hand, if you have one or more Mysteries stunts, you're a mage.

This means that the only things separating a mage from a non-mage in terms of game effects are Mysteries stunts (and aspects, but that's another thing). These stunts pretty much have to represent the whole of spellcasting by themselves. This is tricky because I'm trying to keep stunts down to a manageable number overall. Also, characters start play with only 3-5 stunts total, and advance slowly. I want players who spend all their stunts on Mysteries to be more powerful and versatile at magic than those who only grab one or two, but I don't want being a "proper" mage to require a huge stunt investment.

Each magic discipline (sorcery, Kudan Mysticism, hen-gan, etc.) has its own "stunt tree" of interrelated Mysteries stunts, that use each other as prerequisites. Current plan (seriously this is like Revision #8 or something) is for each stunt tree to have exactly one entry point stunt, that serves as a prerequisite for all the others. (So every sorceror has the Student of Sorcery stunt, etc.) Rather than being a single power, these entry point stunts have a small grab-bag of minor abilities that seem to have important flavor for that discipline of magic. Basically, I asked myself "what three things should every sorceror be known for?" and made stunts out of the answers.

The downside is that this is really quite challenging!

I don't want these to be three-for-the-price-of-one abilities in terms of power (one of my important guidelines is that magic-users shouldn't be, by their nature, more powerful than non-users), so there's that. Also, it turns out that taking a complicated concept like Kudan Mysticism or Farras and distilling it down to its most basic essence is not easy to do!

So, this is my current project. In case I get tricked into thinking I'm almost done with it, there are some nasty surprises in store for me later! For example, even once I get the five big magic disciplines ironed out (Farras, Kudan Mysticism, Irasi, sorcery, hen-gan), the humans need some kind of magic, even if it's died out now. It's established that the only reason they're in this world in the first place is because a powerful human mage discovered it and brought some colonists along, yet I still don't know much about traditionally human magic except that this one time, it brought several hundred people from one world to another. All the really obvious directions this suggests (teleportation, etc.) are things I really, really don't want to start messing with. Furthermore, there's aberrant traditions, Cardan hands, and various dead traditions that should probably be addressed more than they have been, whether or not they end up getting full game-mechanic treatment.

tl,dr; magic is hard and stupid and a lot of work and I am bad at writing. THE END

[Epic Meepo]

Correct me if I'm remembering FATE wrong, but couldn't you implement magic without having any magic stunts at all?

PC with a master architect aspect spends a Fate point:
"I want to use my knowledge of architecture to find a secret passageway that the villain overlooked."

PC with a such-and-such magic aspect spends a Fate point:
"I want to use my such-and-such magic to form a passageway through that wall."

Since magic is essentially just a PC taking narrative control, does it need to be defined any further than that?

[LordVreeg]

LC,

I totally dig it.  To create the proper historical feel/SEPERATE DISCIPLINES you need to get these right.

Just remember that this stuff is a process.   I started the GS system with a 1979 PHB with spell point values scribbled in, then when I started my own spells, I only had 29 to begin with.  
It's a process.  going to be on IRC tonight?

[Superfluous Crow]

Just wanted to say that I love your magic! Might have said it before, but it can be repeated without harm i guess :)
I think it's good you'e putting some work into keeping the disciplines distant and apart; different. Especially since these are really different types of magic and not just various elemental variations on the same theme.
Sadly I don't know much about FATE so i can't say much about the rules; I should probably look into the system again soon :)
Do all om-beh-ral possess "the Subtle Art" stunt? And is it possible to take training in more than one magical discipline?

[Lmns Crn]

Back to front we go!

I totally dig it. To create the proper historical feel/SEPERATE DISCIPLINES you need to get these right.

There's a Science stunt-- I believe it's called "theory and practice"-- which lets you roll Science in place of any other skill, whenever you like. The catch is twofold: you have to be able to spout some pseudoscientific babble to explain what you're doing and how the principles of science aid you, and if the roll fails you take a consequence (Crestfallen, Shaken Confidence, etc.)

One entire magic system I read involved a Mysteries version of this stunt. That's the whole thing. Shooting lightning out of your hands is Mysteries instead of Guns. A divination is Mysteries instead of Investigation. If you fail your roll, you get an "Arcane Backlash" (or whatever) consequence.

Works well,  but it's not what I'm after.[/spoiler]

I guess the shortest way to answer you is that I disagree with your premise: "magic is essentially just a PC taking narrative control". In some worlds, that's absolutely the case. In this one, it's not. That said, solving magic by giving a player a degree of narrative control is a poor match.

[Lmns Crn]

Every time I write about Farras, it gets creepier and creepier. I think maybe I didn't recognize, at the outset, the whole depth of the implications of what I was playing with!

"Life comes and goes like the tides, child. My life, yours... it is a process older than all things. Try and stop it if you will; I am beyond such foolishness. The difference between us? Dear child, when my spirit flows back into the Cauldron at last, I will be there to send it on its way."

You have survived the Ritual of Emptying, which prepares you to serve as a vessel for spirit energies. By sacrificing a portion of both your selfhood and your mortality, you have gained a measure of control over the Sea-- that is, the collective souls of all creatures living and dead, and the unending cycle of birth and death that connects them all. Taking this stunt indicates that you are a mage whose discipline is Farras. It is a prerequisite for all other Farras stunts, and you must accompany it with an aspect that indicates your mage status.

This stunt grants you a small suite of powers; further Farras stunts continue to develop and expand your mastery of magic. Your basic, fundamental abilities as an Purified Vessel are as follows:

* Sea-Sustained -- Your understanding of the fluid nature of your own being has already freed you from many of mortality's shackles. The power of your spirit sustains you, and you sustain it in turn, without dependence on many mortal necessities. Simply put, you no longer need to eat or breathe in order to live (though you still need a lungful of air in order to speak). You must still drink to avoid dying of thirst, but seawater now satisfies you just as well as fresh water does. Additionally, whenever you ingest contaminants, poisons, or other disease-causing agents, you may roll Mysteries instead of Endurance to resist their effects.

* Misfortune -- By exerting some of your influence over the soul-stuff of others, you can place a temporary curse of misfortune upon another living thing. This is a maneuver that pits your Mysteries against their Mysteries or Resolve. If successful, it places a temporary aspect representing the curse. Placing a curse requires one of the following: skin contact between you and your victim, your access to a bit of the victim's hair, blood, or non-trivial possession (any item represented by one of the victim's aspects is ideal), or the victim to drink some water or other liquid which you have specifically prepared for this purpose. Many victims never realize they have been cursed, even after the curse resolves itself in the form of disaster.

* Intangible Gifts -- Your water-lore grants you staggering power over the spirits of others-- including the power to take fragments of others' souls, as long as they are freely given to you. By spending a fate point, you can extract a memory, a personality trait, an emotion, or some similar feature from a willing donor, distilling it into some small receptacle (often a tiny vial of water, but occasionally a hollow shell or other suitable container). This process creates two aspects: one on the donor representing what was lost (e.g., A Missing Fragment of Anger, or No Memory of the War), and one matching, opposite aspect that is applied to whoever is holding the talisman that contains the extracted trait (e.g., Little Vial of Anger, or A Soldier's Last Campaign). These aspects are permanent, unless the original donor obtains and reclaims the extracted part of his spirit. [/quote]Creeeeeeepy.

General entry-level stunts for the Big Five disciplines are done. (Okay, yes, Deep Listening and The Subtle Art still need flavor quotes.) They may get tweaked a little bit, but for now, I am pretty happy with how they've turned out.

I have not yet decided which I want to do first, regarding magic: continue fleshing out the more advanced techniques of these Living Traditions, or working on some of the more esoteric Aberrant Traditions and/or Dead Traditions. I have no idea how I want to handle those yet.

Mayhap a brainstorming post approacheth!

[Nomadic]

Ooo I want a little water vial of Vreeg's darkside

[O Senhor Leetz]

so I just read up on FATE, and did not know that it is a derivative of FUDGE, of which I'm making an Arga version, and just happen to be figuring out my magic system. I ashamedly don't know that much about your setting, but I do know FUDGE (if not as well as I know fate.) I'm also having trouble telling what your magic systems are, maybe a quick short list of the 5 (there are 5 right?) and the effects and flavor you're going for would help, as there is serious wall o' text going on and I'm ADHD. I would love to brainstorm about FUDGE/FATE magic in general.

ps. This is just personal opinion, and it's FATE's term, but "stunts" seems like a bad label for things. All I picture is a guy drinking a Monster jumping off his roof.

[Ghostman]

Placing a curse requires one of the following: skin contact between you and your victim, your access to a bit of the victim's hair, blood, or non-trivial possession (any item represented by one of the victim's aspects is ideal), or the victim to drink some water or other liquid which you have specifically prepared for this purpose.

What kind of actions are involved in preparing this kind of liquid? Mixing herbal components into it? Mumbling arcane words? Placing it in sympathetic conditions for some duration of time? Spitting on it?

Or is it something that purposely only ever takes place "off screen"?

By spending a fate point, you can extract a memory, a personality trait, an emotion, or some similar feature from a willing donor, distilling it into some small receptacle (often a tiny vial of water, but occasionally a hollow shell or other suitable container). This process creates two aspects: one on the donor representing what was lost (e.g., A Missing Fragment of Anger, or No Memory of the War), and one matching, opposite aspect that is applied to whoever is holding the talisman that contains the extracted trait (e.g., Little Vial of Anger, or A Soldier's Last Campaign). These aspects are permanent, unless the original donor obtains and reclaims the extracted part of his spirit.

So what happens if the container is broken and the contents splilled? Wouldn't it make more sense (flavour vise) that you'd have to drink the stuff in order to gain the memory or trait? Or perhaps they could be used in yet other ways. Imagine a smith quenching a freshly forged blade of a dagger in a bucket of water wherein was mixed the extracted expertise of a recently retired assassin...

[Superfluous Crow]

Well, I've just been looking into it now and again; strikes me as original and different which are some of the aspects I look most for in settings. Been trying to make sense of your wiki, although I've never found out where you kept the rest of your material.
And a FATE walkthrough could be nice. Always a bit difficult to wrap your head around a completely new ruleset :)
I'm thinking, what do you imagine as the possible "top level" for each of these? The most powerful stunt and the peak of the magical discipline?
Sorcerers using Imbued Knifes to cut holes in reality? Hen-Gan Adepts convincing strong-willed subjects to commit suicide or become their humble slaves?  Irasi transcending the mortal plane? I'm not saying you should take it this far; just wondering out loud at where you're taking all this eventually.

[Lmns Crn]

Once again, from back to front.

What kind of actions are involved in preparing this kind of liquid? Mixing herbal components into it? Mumbling arcane words? Placing it in sympathetic conditions for some duration of time? Spitting on it?

so I just read up on FATE, and did not know that it is a derivative of FUDGE, of which I'm making an Arga version, and just happen to be figuring out my magic system.... I would love to brainstorm about FUDGE/FATE magic in general. [/quote]The Living Traditions - These are still in practice today, and can be learned and taught.
- Sorcery - Originally a dwarven thing, now mainstream: learn your magic from books, draw crazy runes and magic circles, know Forbidden Knowledge(tm)
- Farras - Think goblin witchdoctors: they believe souls and water are the same substance, and can command fog/tides, place curses, take bits of your soul (with permission), and generally be incredibly creepy
- Irasi - A liriss thing; they work for the Emperor: by meditating on the unity of mind and body, they gain incredible willpower and physical prowess, and some can even command wind and flame
- Kudan Mysticism - A boru thing: powerful healers and tribal leaders who can "breathe life" into living or dead tissue
- Hen-gan - Exclusively an om-beh-ral thing: don't trust the greenblood elven bastards

The Dead Traditions - Ancient magics lost to time (mainly cause we killed everybody that knew how to use them)
- Ork Magic - They wrecked you with fire, and also they made crazy-valuable swords and fortresses that are still around, even though all the orks are slaughtered (nobody liked them much)
- Illas Mir - Literally, "this is"; a gnome thing regarding illusion, mostly for artistic/communicative purposes (some Illas Mir message stones survive, complete with stored illusion-messages for those who touch them, but all the Illas Mir artists were killed by the orks (jerks))
- Human Magic - Somehow it transported humans to this world from their native world, but the mage responsible took his secrets with him to the grave because his kids were jingoistic/insane

Aberrant Traditions - These still crop up now and then, but seem hereditary/spontaneous rather than learned/taught; damned if I/you/anybody know(s) what they are, exactly
- She's a witch! Burrrn her! - um... okay I guess???[/spoiler]

Ooo I want a little water vial of Vreeg's darkside

I told you[/i] I type too many words.

[Superfluous Crow]

I love the Irasi "Unity of Mind and Body" ability, or at least the idea behind it as I don't yet get the implications of it.
But wouldn't that essentially leave you with half your original stress amount? If you had 10 physical stress tracks and 10 mental stress tracks you and received 5 checks in each then you would only be halfway down, but if you had unity and only one track with 10 points in it you would receive 5 stress from one type and 5 stress from the other type and then you'd be reduced to 0. Or what? I'm sure I'm missing something here :)
Also, what do the Boru look like? I can't find any description of their looks on the Boru page and somewhat difficult to visualize them without a basic description. :)
Also, with the mysticism, how much can they get from their "listening"? Sure, the focus seems to be on healing and control of Breath, but you also associate them with a sort of ability to listen to nature. Can this be taken to divinatory heights, or does it simply give access to some of nature's secrets like with the plant ability you mention?

[Lmns Crn]

wiki[/url] last night, but I got distracted by IRC. I did that this morning, though.
[spoiler=boru description copied from new wiki entry]Even the least boru stands taller than any human-- averaging eight feet in height-- and is three times as heavy. Boru are broad-shouldered, barrel-chested, and covered in bulky muscle. Due to their size and weight, city-dwelling boru frequently have trouble with architecture, struggling with doorways built to human or dwarven dimensions, and finding goblin or gnomish buildings impossible to fit into.

Boru have wide faces set into broad, round heads which rest directly on their shoulders; they lack the flexibility of a neck, gaining additional protection for the head, thanks to the thick layers of shoulder and back muscle that directly support and partially surround it. Boru hands and feet our outsized, with four fingers and toes. An average boru's handspan will cover most of a human's torso, and each of its three fingers and thumb are as wide as a human wrist. Their size and strength makes boru fearsome combatants, even unarmed; their fists are the size of melons. The soles of boru feet are covered in tough, cushioning pads of gelatinous material which spread underneath the weight of a standing boru, allowing them to stand tirelessly for long periods and walk over rough terrain without the need for shoes.

Boru are among the most thick-skinned of all Marebo's creatures, possessed of tough, wrinkled hides that are up to one inch thick over much of the body. Boru children are born with a thin coat of short, russet fuzz, most of which is lost during adolescence, revealing the hairless brown or grey hides of adults. [/spoiler]
[spoiler=also here is a sketch]
It's a really old sketch and I'm not particularly happy with it, but it's not a bad place to start.[/spoiler]

Also, with the mysticism, how much can they get from their "listening"? Sure, the focus seems to be on healing and control of Breath, but you also associate them with a sort of ability to listen to nature. Can this be taken to divinatory heights, or does it simply give access to some of nature's secrets like with the plant ability you mention?

really[/i] a true aural sensation, but it closely resembles one.

In a lot of situations, this is remarkably similar to blindsense, or highly-specialized 360-degree vision. A blind mystic could walk around in a forest or swamp without much problem with terrain; he can't sense the ground, or stone, or other nonliving matter, but by sensing grasses, roots, earthworms, etc; he can get a pretty good image of the land. For similar reasons, it's difficult to sneak up on a mystic in the dark.

[Superfluous Crow]

Interesting how Boru, the largest of your races I assume, are apparently the best magical healers (and borderline necromancer-druids as well). A good way to shake things a bit and turn preconceived notions on their head.
And, yes, I can see what you were referring to with the listening now. Sounds cool.

[Lmns Crn]

new Mysteries page[/url], which is a general skill overview and a brief note on the five magic traditions (with emphasis on what distinguishes them, and what kinds of people can join them). All the stunts have been/are being moved to a separate stunts page for each tradition.

I have started with the Farras stunts, which are complete (I think). Marvel with me at the total creepiness of these ritually-drowned mages who can reach into your soul, just like you'd reach a dipper into a jar of water!

Edit: Expect hen-gan next; it is basically completed in my li'l notebook, and all that remains is for me to polish it up a bit and type it up for the wiki.