Where were you 10 years ago?

[Elemental_Elf]

@Light Dragon: I know the government does subsidize in some respects but I was mainly referring to a personal/individual/family subsidy that puts green energy and green appliances on a par with conventional appliances in terms of money.

 Americans are very conscientious people and would always support and buy green technologies if the cost of doing so was not significantly above more traditional technologies.

@Nomadic: Indeed, the United States is a product of the times in which it urbanized and industrialized. Our country is a country designed for the automobile. That is why urban sprawl and large single family homes are the norm (as compared to Europe and more densely populated countries).

In a lot of ways I wish we were more like Europe but that just can't be with out a massive country-changing paradigm shift in policy and national mindset.  

[LD]

>>Of course what works in Europe generally doesn't work so well over here. Of course in the big cities things like mass transit, encouragement of biking, etc work just fine. Alot of the US though is spread out and the cost to develop mass transit, alternate energy, etc is beyond what many communities can hope to afford. Modern America was built with the automobile in mind. What is considered a small trip (10-20 mile drive) to the store where I live would be a huge deal in say the UK where walking to the store is far more common

True. I miss the walkability of European and Asian cities.

The sheer distances involved in the US also explain why its broadband penetration is lower than Japan or Korea's.

>>but I was mainly referring to a personal/individual/family subsidy that puts green energy and green appliances on a par with conventional appliances in terms of money.

Thank you for the clarification, EE. I was of the understanding that the energy rebates in the US for that were similar to those in Europe. For example, there were for a time, rebates to install individual solar panels for water heating on homes. Also, there are tax breaks for installing better insulating windows in the US. However, I am not familiar with current European tax breaks on these matters.

I am not so certain that Americans are conscientious regarding energy use. Because America is so rich, many Americans do not understand how to save electricity or to conserve resources.

To save money, I for example, follow the Chinese way and do not use dryers. I allow things to dry on the clothes line. I insulate my windows and wear sweaters indoors in the winter. I walk or ride the bus/subway as much as possible-- these things are simply not part of the US psyche. I also turn my cellphone and computer off at night and unplug electronic devices. For a while I took only cold showers (but the cost/benefit there lost out in favor of decadence). Most people in my city do not do these things-- all these things save money, but Americans do not seem to be very familiar with frugality because the country and their ancestors have been so lucky.

[Elemental_Elf]

Like I said most Americans would switch if it was the same (or nearly equal) price of traditional appliances. For example, most homes are built with energy efficient windows and insulation. Further, many people jumped on the federal tax rebate for the on demand energy efficient water heaters. Sadly, a lot of people didn't know about the rebate until it was too late.

At the same time, Hybrid cars are also becoming widespread. With in 10 years they should be quite common as people trade in their used hybrids for new ones, which allows people with less disposable income the ability to buy a used Hybrids.

At the same time there really isn't any hope for the prospect of people turning up their air conditioning and turning down their heaters. That is just a bit too much. On the other extreme there are people who take the european mentality too far and turn their heaters down to 50 degrees at night then crank it back up to 70 during the day. The amount of energy required to get a house heated back up to that temperature vastly outstrips the cost of maintaining a level 69.  

As for Dryers, once again that is something that simply won't go away. However, technology is ever advancing and I'm sure there will be green(er) dryers released on to the market, if they are not there already.

[LD]

Side comment about electric cars. While I think a few more would probably be a good idea; I am a bit concerned that they contribute more Nitrogen Oxide emissions than regular gasoline cars contribute. And NOx causes smog and has more immediate negative detrimental effects.

An electric car, per mile, makes 0.1 grams of NOx emissions. A gasoline car makes 0.07 grams.

Conversely, an electric car makes 164 grams of CO2 emissions; whereas a gasoline car makes 320 grams of CO2 emissions per mile.

According to a grid study I recently read, unless people charge at night, many US grids can only support about 5-8% of cars being plugged in and charging at once. If the electric cars plug in at night, they could possibly account for 30% of the current fleet however.

--
Also:

>>Like I said most Americans would switch if it was the same (or nearly equal) price of traditional appliances. For example, most homes are built with energy efficient windows and insulation. Further, many people jumped on the federal tax rebate for the on demand energy efficient water heaters. Sadly, a lot of people didn't know about the rebate until it was too late.

Well, if there has to be a tax rebate to make it the same or nearly equal in price to traditional appliances, then the new appliances are really NOT the same price. The money for the tax rebates and discounts come from Taxes (or in lost tax revenue). The things cost the same regardless-- their cost is just spread out over more people thanks to the rebate.

It only makes sense for the government to support those initiatives if they can rightly show that over a 10 or 20 year period the energy savings actually lead to cash savings- that's gvt's job, to help encourage people to think in terms of long-term benefit. If they don't do that or the gvt's 10-year plans are poorly conducted, then these rebates are actually an additional and unbeneficial redistributory tax that hurts everyone.

When these rebate programs encourage people to replace inefficient things with new ones before the inefficient ones' life-cycles run out though, they are doing a disservice to the environment by creating more waste and actually losing money for consumers or taxpayers. ... I think I may be rambling and creating new issues here that were not meant to be originally addressed...

>>As for Dryers, once again that is something that simply won't go away. However, technology is ever advancing and I'm sure there will be green(er) dryers released on to the market, if they are not there already.

The dryers are going to use electricity that they shouldn't be using in the first place. More efficiency still doesn't solve the problem.

And for every energy efficient dryer that is purchased, a new energy-hogging LCD TV screen more than offsets its benefits.

[Nomadic]

And for every energy efficient dryer that is purchased, a new energy-hogging LCD TV screen more than offsets its benefits.

I would like to point out that that same energy hogging LCD TV also more than offsets the benefits of hanging your clothing out to dry.

[LD]

Nomadic- haha :)

[Elemental_Elf]

@Light Dragon: That post is exactly why American's don't change. Everything is too min/max and doom and gloom. People want to be told, flat out, what they need to do. Being wishy washy and weighing the pros and cons just isn't the best way to penetrate the American psyche. A decisive plan is what's needed. :)

EDIT: As for the rebate issue, you misunderstand how we look at it. The sticker says it's equal in price, that means it's a good buy. Factoring in the taxes and lost governmental revenue simply does not come to people's minds. Better they buy the product than not.

Also, when you have a large appliance removed, unless it's faulty, people usually donate it to charity or sell it off, so the process does not create new waste.

[LD]

>>"That post is exactly why American's don't change. Everything is too min/max and doom and gloom. People want to be told, flat out, what they need to do. Being wishy washy and weighing the pros and cons just isn't the best way to penetrate the American psyche. A decisive plan is what's needed."

EE- That sounds very totalitarian and to some degree communist; that seems the exact opposite of the american ideal of individualism and the idea of america. And that also doesn't seem to indicate that americans are responsible people, but that they are more like sheep? Is that what you were trying to express? I fully acknowledge that I may have misunderstood you.

>>Also, when you have a large appliance removed, unless it's faulty, people usually donate it to charity or sell it off, so the process does not create new waste.

For those who know about this- this is great! For those who do not, it is not. My neighborhood sometimes has large white goods and often sofas thrown out on the street. If it is true that the majority really do donate it, then I have more respect for the situation.

>>DIT: As for the rebate issue, you misunderstand how we look at it. The sticker says it's equal in price, that means it's a good buy. Factoring in the taxes and lost governmental revenue simply does not come to people's minds. Better they buy the product than not.

Hm. I agree- to the individual even if everyone's taxes go up 1 unit, but that decreases the price of the energy efficient thing to 10 units from 100- they certainly should buy it.

But that doesn't necessarily make it a good deal, because the government cannot afford to subsidize everyone's new dryer at a tax of 1 unit. Either the tax needs to be higher so that all may benefit, or the benefits are unequally distributed among the first to realize there is a discount.

I suppose a fair way to state our situations is that- the gvt. rebate tax makes it a good deal for some, but not for all. And that if done correctly it could lead to a utilitarian net benefit.

[St0nE]

10  years ago... was in HS... also was my school's sysadmin but they were not to pay me, so they had to have stuff "fall off the truck". I also ran a very frequent dnd campaign... 2e with a lot of house rules that ended up as 3.x. I even had some of the popular kids playing... So much infighting in my game too... it was amusing..

[Elemental_Elf]

EE- That sounds very totalitarian and to some degree communist; that seems the exact opposite of the american ideal of individualism and the idea of america. And that also doesn't seem to indicate that americans are responsible people, but that they are more like sheep? Is that what you were trying to express? I fully acknowledge that I may have misunderstood you.

Ok, I admit it, I went a little too far with my comment. The problem is that there's a lot of different green organizations telling people what they *must* to do and this leads to a lot of sensory overload. This overload easily generates a lot of indecision, which breeds an apathetic attitude towards all green initiatives.

For those who know about this- this is great! For those who do not, it is not. My neighborhood sometimes has large white goods and often sofas thrown out on the street. If it is true that the majority really do donate it, then I have more respect for the situation.

I live in a desert, so most people do 1 of 2 things with their used appliances - donate/sell them or take them out into the desert and pitch them. The former, can net you a good tax refund and/or cash, the latter (if caught) can net you a massive fine (as well as being forced to properly dispose of the appliance (usually through good will). The cool thing is that the good will shops around here will actually come to your house and pick up large appliances and furniture if you call them, so there's really no excuse not to donate the stuff.

Hm. I agree- to the individual even if everyone's taxes go up 1 unit, but that decreases the price of the energy efficient thing to 10 units from 100- they certainly should buy it.

But that doesn't necessarily make it a good deal, because the government cannot afford to subsidize everyone's new dryer at a tax of 1 unit. Either the tax needs to be higher so that all may benefit, or the benefits are unequally distributed among the first to realize there is a discount.

I suppose a fair way to state our situations is that- the gvt. rebate tax makes it a good deal for some, but not for all. And that if done correctly it could lead to a utilitarian net benefit.

I definitely agree, the tax rebates are for the short term. It's not a perfect system but every little bit helps.

[LD]

>>The cool thing is that the good will shops around here will actually come to your house and pick up large appliances and furniture if you call them, so there's really no excuse not to donate the stuff.

That is very nice of your area.

The problem is that there's a lot of different green organizations telling people what they *must* to do and this leads to a lot of sensory overload. This overload easily generates a lot of indecision, which breeds an apathetic attitude towards all green initiatives.

I can agree with that. Unity of message is important in advertising and in many other things as well.

[Nomadic]

Not to mention the global warming stuff keeps alot of people from taking it seriously as they see it as fear mongering.

[DungeonMaster]

10 years ago, I was 32...now I'm 42...and 10 years from now, I'll be 52...ain't that a bitch...roleplaying for 30 years now...that's great. Keep it simple and live longer.

[SDragon]

That sounds very totalitarian and to some degree communist; that seems the exact opposite of the american ideal of individualism and the idea of america. And that also doesn't seem to indicate that americans are responsible people, but that they are more like sheep? Is that what you were trying to express? I fully acknowledge that I may have misunderstood you.

I wouldn't go quite that far, but in general, there is reason to think that of the home country to McDonald's and Wal-Mart.

[Ninja D!]

I guess 10 years ago I was pretty normal for someone who is now 22. Geek normal, that is. I loved Pokemon and...wait, I still love Pokemon. I have my DS with Platinum next to my bed and have preordered the new games coming in March...I was always more into Monster Rancher, though. The DS form of which is coming out in March, too.

I had a bit of an interest in D&D and the like but didn't get truly serious with the books and all until a year or two later...shortly after 3.0 came out. I was into Magic The Gathering with varying degrees of seriousness long before that. Started when I was six or so. Hasn't really stopped, I've just been off it for a while again.

One difference -- I've always kind of bordered on obsession with music. And, for some reason, I have girlfriends (generally pretty good looking ones, too) slightly more often than the average geek. I guess I'm one of the freaky hybrid models that just doesn't quite fit in place.

I still listen to a lot of music from 10 years ago...