Religion vs. Magic

[Elemental_Elf]

[An outside would] be immediately denounced by the power-base as a person in league with their devil/Morrigan/malignant force and would have a very bad day.

Exclusivity is a common theme for Arcane Magic. The biggest reason it is an oft neglected theme for Divine Magic is most likely due to the fact that Divine magic has a boss where as Arcane does not.

[Cap. Karnaugh]

[An outside would] be immediately denounced by the power-base as a person in league with their devil/Morrigan/malignant force and would have a very bad day.

Exclusivity is a common theme for Arcane Magic. The biggest reason it is an oft neglected theme for Divine Magic is most likely due to the fact that Divine magic has a boss where as Arcane does not.

Hmmm, not so sure...that's a sort of an stereotype, but it could well be the other way round (e.g.the clergy being the elite of your world)

[LordVreeg]

welcome to theocracy

[Cheomesh]

Welcome to Organized Religion.

M.

[Lmns Crn]

welcome to theocracy

This is one of the ideas I've recently been having a lot of fun playing with! (I should probably go back and finish that thread some time.) I have been holding off on posting about it because it is complicated, and because I like to err on the side of avoiding waving my own writing around like a flag, but I've got in place an example of many of the ideas discussed in this thread.

[spoiler=the Readers Digest version]In the Jade Stage, the whole practice of scholarly, well-read and -researched magic (sorcery) is connected to the largest and most influential of the world's religions (the polytheistic Cardan Faith). Sorcerors draw their power from a reserve that, depending on who you ask, is either siphoned off directly from two of the gods (who, due to their own feuding, are in no position to do much about it) or is a naturally-occurring reservoir of energy (i.e., not essentially different from gravity or sunlight, and certainly not dependent on the idea of deities or the supernatural).

The whole discipline of sorcery was inventors by a cabal of brilliant thinkers (the Cold Spring Drinkers) who were (ultimately unsuccessfully) searching for the secret to immortality. They were working in concert with political rebels (the Dissident Clans) who wanted to break away from Cardannis and found their own nation free from what they perceived as Temple-sanctioned tyranny, but they needed some sort of divine sanction to do so. The sorcerors, with their stolen divine power, seemed to qualify!

Now, centuries later, the order of sorcerors most directly-descended in thought and practice from the Cold Spring Drinkers (the Order of the Gold Chain) serves as the strong-handed advisors and administrators to the king of newly-founded Tiburon, making that nation a theocracy in all but name. The Order has three duties: a political duty to guide the figurehead leaders of the nation they've helped found, a metaphysical duty to safeguard their source of magical power (putting them at odds with a few secretive, splinter group of sorcerors who aim to free the deities they're all supposedly siphoning power from), and most secretively of all, a duty of stewardship: safeguarding and delivering the letters written by the Cold Spring Drinkers.

See, although they were not successful at figuring out how to cheat death and live forever, the Cold Spring Drinkers stumbled upon some sort of long-range precognition, which they put to use by writing many letters addressed to specific individuals who would not be born for decades or centuries. These letters seek to shift the course of future events by encouraging their recipients to change minor-seeming but crucial events. It's unknown what larger goal the Cold Spring Drinkers had in writing these letters-- whether they were trying to bring about something specific, or merely to achieve second-rate immortality by continuing to affect world events after their deaths. Trusted archivists and couriers within the Order of the Gold Chain safeguard these letters in their hidden vaults, and make sure they are delivered unopened when their specified dates arrive.[/spoiler]

[Elemental_Elf]

Except most Churches are more than welcoming to new recruits, they always need some one to clean outhouse and farm the church fields... Exclusivity is not something I tend to see in Fantasy churches because they are either very much like the Catholic Church and always on the prowl for new brothers or they are like true D&D and there are just too many understaffed churches for them to truly turn anyone away.

Of course the idea of a true theocracy is a very interesting idea and is one of the oft neglected themes for good gods. I mean we've all seen the uber evil god have theocracies but what about the good gods? Why can't they have theocracies? Or do all theocracies, no matter the intentions, become evil?

As for the limited Arcane, I was making reference to things like the Circle of Magi in Dragon Age: Origins, the Wizards in LotR, the Mages Guild in Morrowind/Oblivion, the Ministry of Magic in Harry Potter, the Kirin Tor of WoW, the Izzit League of Ravnica and the Wizard's Guild in Aeolond (hehe plug!)

[Lmns Crn]

As for the limited Arcane, I was making reference to things like the Circle of Magi in Dragon Age: Origins, the Wizards in LotR, the Mages Guild in Morrowind/Oblivion, the Ministry of Magic in Harry Potter, the Kirin Tor of WoW, the Izzit League of Ravnica and the Wizard's Guild in Aeolond (hehe plug!)

What common quality of these are you referring to?

[Elemental_Elf]

As for the limited Arcane, I was making reference to things like the Circle of Magi in Dragon Age: Origins, the Wizards in LotR, the Mages Guild in Morrowind/Oblivion, the Ministry of Magic in Harry Potter, the Kirin Tor of WoW, the Izzit League of Ravnica and the Wizard's Guild in Aeolond (hehe plug!)

Organized 'arcane' magic which have an air of exclusivity. Sorry, this was in response to Cap. Karnaugh (aka gnola14) post which quoted me.

[LordVreeg]

Except most Churches are more than welcoming to new recruits, they always need some one to clean outhouse and farm the church fields... Exclusivity is not something I tend to see in Fantasy churches because they are either very much like the Catholic Church and always on the prowl for new brothers or they are like true D&D and there are just too many understaffed churches for them to truly turn anyone away.

Of course the idea of a true theocracy is a very interesting idea and is one of the oft neglected themes for good gods. I mean we've all seen the uber evil god have theocracies but what about the good gods? Why can't they have theocracies? Or do all theocracies, no matter the intentions, become evil?

As for the limited Arcane, I was making reference to things like the Circle of Magi in Dragon Age: Origins, the Wizards in LotR, the Mages Guild in Morrowind/Oblivion, the Ministry of Magic in Harry Potter, the Kirin Tor of WoW, the Izzit League of Ravnica and the Wizard's Guild in Aeolond (hehe plug!)

Good Gods? Evil Gods?
I have some religions that are more benovolent, and some that have a malevolent side, but 'EVIL theocracy'??  I have trouble with EEEEVIL religions being worshipped at all in mainstream society.  
No, My Theocracy of the Church of Nebler the Defender got wiped out by the Empire of Argus 5-6 game years ago, but the Theocracy of Gorntar, run by the 'Five Most Holy' is actually 5 churches that hold sway.  The Church of Obscurity and Fate (Darkling) is one, as well as the Church of Change and Black Humor (Jubilex), but neither of these is 'evil' per se.

 Exclusive arcane?
collegium arcan is a good example.

[Cap. Karnaugh]

[...] As for the limited Arcane, I was making reference to things like the Circle of Magi in Dragon Age: Origins, the Wizards in LotR, the Mages Guild in Morrowind/Oblivion, the Ministry of Magic in Harry Potter, the Kirin Tor of WoW, the Izzit League of Ravnica and the Wizard's Guild in Aeolond (hehe plug!)

I get your point, but what I meant was that, though popular, it doesn't HAVE to be that way. Being fantasy, we don't have to be attached to how usually church and pagans religions worked in the real world.

[beejazz]

Good Gods? Evil Gods?
I have some religions that are more benovolent, and some that have a malevolent side, but 'EVIL theocracy'??  I have trouble with EEEEVIL religions being worshipped at all in mainstream society.  
No, My Theocracy of the Church of Nebler the Defender got wiped out by the Empire of Argus 5-6 game years ago, but the Theocracy of Gorntar, run by the 'Five Most Holy' is actually 5 churches that hold sway.  The Church of Obscurity and Fate (Darkling) is one, as well as the Church of Change and Black Humor (Jubilex), but neither of these is 'evil' per se.

Any religion worth its salt recognises how awful and ugly this world can be. In the same way that goodness or its more specific aspects (like bumper crops, smooth sailing, new life, knowledge, etc.) have their representatives, so too does "evil" or if you prefer "all the bad stuff that happens" (famine, hurricanes, old age and death, ignorance, etc.) And the relationship between the members of a faith and the origins of evil in that faith vary greatly. There can be a Judeochristian thing going, in which case good and evil are opposed to each other and mortals must side with the good and fight the bad. Or there can be other takes, like in a polytheistic faith where the faithful will sacrifice to the wrathful and capricious god of storms in order to appease him. And when evil and the like are attributed elsewhere than supernatural entities things can get more complicated but I'm losing my original point.

Anyway, I know we don't like good/evil value judgements here, but when it comes to supernatural entities representing facets of the world, I don't see why something can't exist for the sole purpose of inflicting pain and hardship (or at least doing something that will result in pain and hardship). And if such a thing exists, there will be those who try and fight it, those who try not to step on its toes, and those sick bastards who want to help it out (or more realistically want its help and power to do things they couldn't do otherwise). And the last category might be somewhat inflated by the fact that I play in a fantasy game.

As to the exclusivity of religion, that also varies. Some churches want to be everywhere, some want to run things from the top and don't care if the majority on the bottom buy in, some are mystery cults... it all depends on context. I've heard the Muslims early on colonised new areas for the sake of monetary gain. They didn't convert people by the sword, but Muslims were exempt from the taxes on the area, and converts counted. I know that's not the case across the board but... food for thought.

So far, the difference in my setting between religious and secular mages is simply one of politics and tradition and such.

[Elemental_Elf]

I get your point, but what I meant was that, though popular, it doesn't HAVE to be that way. Being fantasy, we don't have to be attached to how usually church and pagans religions worked in the real world.

Oh, I misunderstood; I thought you meant you were unfamiliar with the concept, or thought it was uncommon :)

Good Gods? Evil Gods?
I have some religions that are more benovolent, and some that have a malevolent side, but 'EVIL theocracy'??  I have trouble with EEEEVIL religions being worshipped at all in mainstream society.  

Why not? It would, in essence, be like a modern day dictatorship that has a cult of personality. Why settle for a mere mortal when you can have a GOD?

[LordVreeg]

[blockquote=E_E][blockquote=LV]Good Gods? Evil Gods?
I have some religions that are more benovolent, and some that have a malevolent side, but 'EVIL theocracy'?? I have trouble with EEEEVIL religions being worshipped at all in mainstream society. [/blockquote]



Why not? It would, in essence, be like a modern day dictatorship that has a cult of personality. Why settle for a mere mortal when you can have a GOD? [/blockquote]
First off, people belong to relgions, not Gods.  They may worship a god of a certain religion, and the amount of truth involved between what a God is and how he is portrayed is another, very important conversation, as is the level of direct influence deities have in a world.  I thought long and hard before I put the Planars out of reach in Celtricia, so that I could bring back the human elements and the elements of faith back into the world.

And one of the myriad problems is exactly because it is like a cult of personality.  Read biographies from Germans or Italy or Stalinist Russia in WW2.  People blinded themselves to the evil that was being committed, and it is only with 20/20 hindsight we see the evil perpetrated.
Even the ancient cultures of God-emperors (Rome, Mayan, Assyria, Egypt+) had to put a benevolent face to their subjects; as any culture that rises to the level of cooperation necessary to form a stable ruling class develops mores/ethos/values that look down on selfish/evil acts.  These are called 'Cultural Universals'.  I don't care how strange the psychology, creating a culture requires cooperation and some level of Altruism, which forms these 'Cultural Universals'.

A cult of personality, a dictatorship, even one with a God, has to wear a fair face to maintian followers/worshippers.

You could (and I do) have Gods that have different aspects, some of them evil, hiding themselves in a religion that does not emphasize the Evil side of the God.  And I am not saying the mystery cults (which I love, there are like 40 in Celtricia already) and secret societies cannot exist with small groups of worshippers trying to get ahead any way they can.  You could have a powerful priest caste force lip-service for a generation, maybe.
And you may have a balancing small worship in a Pantheon, A god that fills a role as part of a placeholder.

But an outright EVIL religion existing in mainstream society, as a primary religion?  I'm not saying that some of our big Brains may not be able to get around it, but this has always been, to me, a red flag if I see it in a campaign setting.  

   

[Mason]

Good lord. Really glad to see this thread take off.

[beejazz]

First off, people belong to relgions, not Gods.  They may worship a god of a certain religion, and the amount of truth involved between what a God is and how he is portrayed is another, very important conversation, as is the level of direct influence deities have in a world.  I thought long and hard before I put the Planars out of reach in Celtricia, so that I could bring back the human elements and the elements of faith back into the world.

And one of the myriad problems is exactly because it is like a cult of personality.  Read biographies from Germans or Italy or Stalinist Russia in WW2.  People blinded themselves to the evil that was being committed, and it is only with 20/20 hindsight we see the evil perpetrated.
Even the ancient cultures of God-emperors (Rome, Mayan, Assyria, Egypt+) had to put a benevolent face to their subjects; as any culture that rises to the level of cooperation necessary to form a stable ruling class develops mores/ethos/values that look down on selfish/evil acts.  These are called 'Cultural Universals'.  I don't care how strange the psychology, creating a culture requires cooperation and some level of Altruism, which forms these 'Cultural Universals'.

A cult of personality, a dictatorship, even one with a God, has to wear a fair face to maintian followers/worshippers.[/quote]You could (and I do) have Gods that have different aspects, some of them evil, hiding themselves in a religion that does not emphasize the Evil side of the God.  And I am not saying the mystery cults (which I love, there are like 40 in Celtricia already) and secret societies cannot exist with small groups of worshippers trying to get ahead any way they can.  You could have a powerful priest caste force lip-service for a generation, maybe.
And you may have a balancing small worship in a Pantheon, A god that fills a role as part of a placeholder.

But an outright EVIL religion existing in mainstream society, as a primary religion?  I'm not saying that some of our big Brains may not be able to get around it, but this has always been, to me, a red flag if I see it in a campaign setting.[/quote]

Maybe the problem is calling it an evil religion. Would you accept a religion that wages holy wars, executes anyone accused of being a heretic without fair trial, practices periodic human sacrifice, endorses slavery, and is run by a guy who can rule with an iron fist because his buddy is a god of war? As opposed to one that proposes killing, stealing, and rape as its virtues and kindness, love, and selflessness as its vices?