What are the repercussions of having this be a universal law in my setting?

[Weave]

First off, I just wanted to say "Hi" since this is my first time posting on these boards, but I've been a longtime fan and love to read everyone's settings.

Now, to cut to the chase...

I have a setting that I've been developing for several years now thats based off a sort of Jungian dreamscape. Its one of my prime enjoyments because I have to purposely think outside of the regular scheme of how things might work, which is surprisingly tough. One of my latest thoughts regarded the "gods" of the setting, which are essentially the physical manifestation of cultural memes. In other words, they're created from humanoid kind's collective thoughts. It would take an immense amount of collective thought to give a meme a physical appearance (to prevent there from being millions of memes for every small group of like-minded thinkers), but then I wondered: why should this stop at memes?

So from there I've been contemplating the repercussions of allowing whatever is collectively believed to be, well, made true over time (like the gods). For instance, because the vast majority of sailers believe in the tales of the kraken, the kraken thus becomes a real thing.

I've been giving this some thought and I don't think I can work it all out on my own without creating some guidelines... I understand that things can get crazy real fast with this idea, but it nonetheless interests me.

So I ask, would anyone be willing to help me with this? Give some scenarios where this might be interesting, or where it might get crazy? This isn't set in stone, but I see it as a sort of creative thought exercise for myself. What do you guys and gals think?

Here's some of my thought on what this law would impact. I would love for anyone to contribute to or dispute the list:
- Almost everybody knows this law exists. The exception would be particularly isolated areas or uneducated folks, but that doesn't stop them from benefitting from this law without knowing it. Even the gods understand that they are simply the result of collective thought.

- It takes a long, long time for things to gain physicality through collected thought, but can be accelerated depending on how vast the amount of people who believe it an their conviction. Likewise, those created things don't simply vanish or appear overnight; it can take a lifetime for a collected thought (I should really think of a better name for these...) to fade away, even long after everyone's forgotten about them, thus giving them a chance to reconnect to something and make an attempt at renown once more (essentially, these are the demons of my world).

- The unknown would feed the unknown: A "forgotten" relic may have once been leaking its power away when it was wiped away from history, but should a scrap of evidence of its existence pop up, it could spawn rumors that would fuel its power (albeit slowly) despite the actual truth behind them. Those who shroud themselves in mystery would be arming themselves with the power of rumors and assumptions.

- The changes brought about by collected thought are absolute: this remains as one of my most controversial elements of the law, but I can't see it working any other way. Naturally, there are some fundamental flaws with this method of thought: If the Elves of a particular land believe that by burning a sacred animal every day at noon they'll extend the hours of daylight, then would the neighboring lands notice the transition in day time? Likewise, if one area firmly believes a certain artifact has the power to slay any living creature with a single blow and another area firmly believes that the same artifact is a tool of pure peace and healing, which is true? Would the larger group of collected thought take precedence over the other (this would make sense for the Elf day time example, since it would be argued that everyone else believes the sun sets at such an hour and the moon rises at another)? Would their collected thoughts spawn two identical but different artifacts?

- Songs, tales, stories, etc. can be both deadly and rewarding: A new type of warfare would arise, characterized by spreading slanderous tales about an enemy country. Propaganda would be an incredibly useful tool. Politics would be as dangerous a profession as adventuring: A single slanderous lie could spell devastation to a family's history or honor if allowed to spread and grow, and "assassins" could very well be outfitted with pens and parchment as opposed to knives and poisons. Granted, these would take years, sometimes decades, to set in, they could very well spell death to any reputation.

Tell me what you think!

[LordVreeg]

Thanks for posting.  Nice way to start.

[blockquote=The Weave]- Almost everybody knows this law exists. The exception would be particularly isolated areas or uneducated folks, but that doesn't stop them from benefitting from this law without knowing it. Even the gods understand that they are simply the result of collective thought.[/blockquote]
This part won't work.  If real belief feeds this law, then subconsiously, the people of the world will know anything they are 'believing into existence' is false.  If the Created Memetics are fed be belief, it has to be real belief, genuine belief.  Your slanderous lie, etc, would be disbelieved or mistrusted, as would every song or statement.

There is also the isue of 'aware' memetics, people made more powerful by this belief.  I would set this law up to be knowable by a select few of these people.  

[Ghostman]

The changes brought about by collected thought are absolute: this remains as one of my most controversial elements of the law, but I can't see it working any other way. Naturally, there are some fundamental flaws with this method of thought: If the Elves of a particular land believe that by burning a sacred animal every day at noon they'll extend the hours of daylight, then would the neighboring lands notice the transition in day time? Likewise, if one area firmly believes a certain artifact has the power to slay any living creature with a single blow and another area firmly believes that the same artifact is a tool of pure peace and healing, which is true? Would the larger group of collected thought take precedence over the other (this would make sense for the Elf day time example, since it would be argued that everyone else believes the sun sets at such an hour and the moon rises at another)? Would their collected thoughts spawn two identical but different artifacts?

Maybe the length of day becomes longer in the elf lands only while sunset and sunrise appear to remain synchronized with the rest of the world, and the artifact's power changes based on who uses it (or even the people that are there to witness it's use)?

Songs, tales, stories, etc. can be both deadly and rewarding: A new type of warfare would arise, characterized by spreading slanderous tales about an enemy country. Propaganda would be an incredibly useful tool. Politics would be as dangerous a profession as adventuring: A single slanderous lie could spell devastation to a family's history or honor if allowed to spread and grow, and "assassins" could very well be outfitted with pens and parchment as opposed to knives and poisons. Granted, these would take years, sometimes decades, to set in, they could very well spell death to any reputation.

If everyone knows that belief can change things, I think they will refuse to believe anything that clashes with their interests or prejudices, and will readily believe anything that seems like a good thing in their eyes. Logic and reasoning will be meaningless, the most well-crafted of lies will fall on deaf ears if they do not present you with something that you'd want to believe in. Likewise "obvious" truths will be lost in la-la-land while the masses embrace more pleasant superstitions.

After all, why would you want to believe that your government is full of corrupt tyrants, if you're aware that believing them to be competent and hard-working philanthropists can actually make them be that?

[Weave]

Thanks for posting.  Nice way to start.

[blockquote=The Weave]- Almost everybody knows this law exists. The exception would be particularly isolated areas or uneducated folks, but that doesn't stop them from benefitting from this law without knowing it. Even the gods understand that they are simply the result of collective thought.[/blockquote]
This part won't work.  If real belief feeds this law, then subconsiously, the people of the world will know anything they are 'believing into existence' is false.  If the Created Memetics are fed be belief, it has to be real belief, genuine belief.  Your slanderous lie, etc, would be disbelieved or mistrusted, as would every song or statement.

There is also the isue of 'aware' memetics, people made more powerful by this belief.  I would set this law up to be knowable by a select few of these people.  

Thanks for the help! I haven't given that point as much thought (embarrassingly, since its pretty important) and more or less threw it out to get a reaction. You're reply makes sense, so I'll adjust it accordingly.

I could easily limit the law to only those who have done extensive research or the more philosophically inclined, leaving everyone else to oftentimes pass it off as an unfounded theory... something similar to saying you might have actual photos of, say, UFOs; some would be fascinated, others would scoff it off as fake.

I wouldn't want to try and keep this law a secret in my world, but rather something people would be less willing to believe if told... which actually leads to a sort of paradox, now that I think about it: assuming there is a fairly large chunk of the world population who doesn't know or understand this law, would it then thus hold less power or even cease to "exist" as a law?

Maybe there should be some set of "immutable" things, impervious to the "collective current" of thought.

Also, I don't think it should be so easy to simply say "I do(n't) believe it." There needs to be some legitimate conviction behind it, not a simple knowledge of the laws' existence and a nod of the head. There needs to be a certain mental training to teach oneself to truly "believe," otherwise anyone who knew the law could only benefit from others beliefs upon them (I was hoping to spin the reasons behind magic and spells into this, so my goal is to have it be a legitimate tool to those who understand it... though it would be an ironic little twist of fate for those who gained knowledge of the law).

You'll have to forgive my own little conversations I have with myself, just a personal quirk I suppose.

[Weave]

Maybe the length of day becomes longer in the elf lands only while sunset and sunrise appear to remain synchronized with the rest of the world, and the artifact's power changes based on who uses it (or even the people that are there to witness it's use)?

That's a good possibility. It would be interesting to have a certain land have slower time than others, adding to the dreamlike nature of my world. I kind of like that.

If everyone knows that belief can change things, I think they will refuse to believe anything that clashes with their interests or prejudices, and will readily believe anything that seems like a good thing in their eyes. Logic and reasoning will be meaningless, the most well-crafted of lies will fall on deaf ears if they do not present you with something that you'd want to believe in. Likewise "obvious" truths will be lost in la-la-land while the masses embrace more pleasant superstitions.

After all, why would you want to believe that your government is full of corrupt tyrants, if you're aware that believing them to be competent and hard-working philanthropists can actually make them be that?

I actually just responded to something very similar to this. Check out my above post for my potential solution.

[Steerpike]

I see your conundrum.  Essentially you'd have made objective reality answerable to a kind of direct democracy of belief.

Have you ever read Gaiman's Sandman?  There's one issue called "A Dream of a Thousand Cats" that reminds me of this mechanic.  Essentially, in the comic, the world used to be ruled by supreme cat-lords and cat-ladies of gigantic size; humans were mere playthings.  However, one day, a human proclaims to all the other humans that if all of them dream simultaneously of a different world - one in which humans are the rulers, not the cats - the world will change.  The humans dream, and the world changes overnight - but it changes in such a way so that the world was always that way, so that cats never were the masters and were always, erm, cat-sized (as opposed to house-sized).  But one cat, who is told this story by the title character (Morpheus, the Sandman), wants the other cats of the world to dream themselves back in charge...

[Weave]

I see your conundrum.  Essentially you'd have made objective reality answerable to a kind of direct democracy of belief.

It is indeed a conundrum, but its this kind of thinking that really gets me places, so its a good kind of conundrum. Do you think it's a capable world mechanic?

Have you ever read Gaiman's Sandman?  There's one issue called "A Dream of a Thousand Cats" that reminds me of this mechanic.  Essentially, in the comic, the world used to be ruled by supreme cat-lords and cat-ladies of gigantic size; humans were mere playthings.  However, one day, a human proclaims to all the other humans that if all of them dream simultaneously of a different world - one in which humans are the rulers, not the cats - the world will change.  The humans dream, and the world changes overnight - but it changes in such a way so that the world was always that way, so that cats never were the masters and were always, erm, cat-sized (as opposed to house-sized).  But one cat, who is told this story by the title character (Morpheus, the Sandman), wants the other cats of the world to dream themselves back in charge...

Hah! Sounds like it'd be right up my alley, quirkiness and all. Is the rest of the book good?

[Steerpike]

It's a fantastic series - actually a 10 volume comic series (and the only comic to EVER win the World Fantasy Award - they changed it after Sandman won so that comics are no longer eligible, so Sandman will remain the only comic to ever win).  The series takes its time to find its feet but once it gets going its really excellent.

Gaiman's prose novel American Gods also has some similarities - the gods are sustained by human belief, and as belief dwindles they lose power.

[Xeviat]

First off, welcome to the community. We've been getting a number of new faces, and I'm really glad to see that.

Now, onto your question. I'm writing this out as I read, so forgive me if something's redundant. Right off the bat, I'm very into the idea. It reminds me of a way I took to René Descartes's "I think, therefore I am" phrase; in a world a friend and I were making in high school, we called this idea "idealism", and it stated that the laws of reality only exist because the collective consciousness believed in them. Magic was prevalent in the past because more people believed. In this world, androids were the first to rediscover magic because they were better able to reprogram their own beliefs. So, not to hijack, but I love your idea.

So, I do like the idea of monsters as well as gods being spawned from collective belief. I think your ideas behind these requiring large numbers of people or people with very strong convictions will limit things well enough.

But, I do have a contribution for a world like this. I don't know what game system you're going to use, if any, but I think there should be some sort of "lucid dreaming" skill that certain people would have (in d20 terms, it would be a charisma skill). The idea behind it is people can impose their will and belief upon reality once they are aware of the nature of reality. In narrative, it would allow a character to make almost anything small scale happen. In game terms, it would be like a weak variable power, mimicking weak spells, altering the terrain, and maybe even summoning little temporary monsters. The entire magic system of the world could be based around this ability.

I like it. I'm eager to see what you do with it.

[Seraph]

But, I do have a contribution for a world like this. I don't know what game system you're going to use, if any, but I think there should be some sort of "lucid dreaming" skill that certain people would have (in d20 terms, it would be a charisma skill). The idea behind it is people can impose their will and belief upon reality once they are aware of the nature of reality. In narrative, it would allow a character to make almost anything small scale happen. In game terms, it would be like a weak variable power, mimicking weak spells, altering the terrain, and maybe even summoning little temporary monsters. The entire magic system of the world could be based around this ability.

It seems to me that something like this would also work very well with the concept of "Action Points" as they exist in Eberron and 4e D&D.  The idea that, in a given moment, even someone not really skilled in magic can tweak reality by their lucidity in what's going on, and by force of will and belief.  

[LordVreeg]

But, I do have a contribution for a world like this. I don't know what game system you're going to use, if any, but I think there should be some sort of "lucid dreaming" skill that certain people would have (in d20 terms, it would be a charisma skill). The idea behind it is people can impose their will and belief upon reality once they are aware of the nature of reality. In narrative, it would allow a character to make almost anything small scale happen. In game terms, it would be like a weak variable power, mimicking weak spells, altering the terrain, and maybe even summoning little temporary monsters. The entire magic system of the world could be based around this ability.

It seems to me that something like this would also work very well with the concept of "Action Points" as they exist in Eberron and 4e D&D.  The idea that, in a given moment, even someone not really skilled in magic can tweak reality by their lucidity in what's going on, and by force of will and belief.  

Good point.  From a mechanical standpoint, many of us have moved to skill-based, grittier systems, which would be an ill-fit for a setting where concepts can become real and the different views of reality actually shift the Solid Life in line with those beliefs.

This system definitly falls into line with a game with player input into the omniscent narrative.
And one wonders how those who DO use magic will view/use/interpret this 'law'.

[Weave]

But, I do have a contribution for a world like this. I don't know what game system you're going to use, if any, but I think there should be some sort of "lucid dreaming" skill that certain people would have (in d20 terms, it would be a charisma skill). The idea behind it is people can impose their will and belief upon reality once they are aware of the nature of reality. In narrative, it would allow a character to make almost anything small scale happen. In game terms, it would be like a weak variable power, mimicking weak spells, altering the terrain, and maybe even summoning little temporary monsters. The entire magic system of the world could be based around this ability.

It seems to me that something like this would also work very well with the concept of "Action Points" as they exist in Eberron and 4e D&D.  The idea that, in a given moment, even someone not really skilled in magic can tweak reality by their lucidity in what's going on, and by force of will and belief.  

Good point.  From a mechanical standpoint, many of us have moved to skill-based, grittier systems, which would be an ill-fit for a setting where concepts can become real and the different views of reality actually shift the Solid Life in line with those beliefs.

This system definitly falls into line with a game with player input into the omniscent narrative.
And one wonders how those who DO use magic will view/use/interpret this 'law'.

It's funny you should mention lucid dreaming, its basically the reason I built the setting in the first place. I wanted something to reflect my creative interest in dreams, and this setting is the result. It's constantly been tinkered with for the last seven years, and I'm finally starting to ground all my ideas.

Essentially, the world itself has fallen asleep and dreamt up the mortal realm. Everything from trees to demons are all the result of the worlds rampant dreaming. Magicians were the first people to realize that the world was a dream, and thus understood that they were not limited by the implied "rules" of reality. Essentially, they attained Lucidity, which allowed them to cast their spells and work their magic. Of course, that sort of training takes years to perfect, and only the extremely gifted could teach themselves the ways of "unbelief" of their real world limitations, so good magicians are somewhat sparse (ironically, the campaign world is still highly magical, its just those who can use that magic who remain uncommon).

Before anyone says anything, I want to let you know that the idea behind magic and this "Law" were thought up on separate occasions, so the two might not exactly mesh with each other as perfectly as I wish, but I'm open to suggestions. I'm still trying to reign all my favorite ideas in under one roof and have them, well, make sense (which, ironically, is something I shouldn't be too worried about in a "dream world," but I don't want the sheer "wonderlandishness" of it to give it instability; I want it to remain a playable and somewhat understandable world).

But now I'm just rambling... I'm actually using D&D 3.5 rules (Pathfinder, to be more specific). To be honest, I haven't thought of changing any mechanics, but its crossed my mind as a possibility. I think it would be a good way to really bring the players into the setting, though I've never been one skilled at balanced mechanics. Action Points might be the safest way to do this, especially if I reflavored them as "Lucid Points" or something. I was looking for a way to give more "mundane" classes a way to manipulate their surroundings like a spellcaster could, and this might be the best solution.

[SDragon]

Seems Steerpike already beat me to mentioning Sandman, heh. It's a great series, and probably good inspiration for a dream-based setting. A Dream of a Thousand Cats is perfect for this sort of idea.

As for an objective reality, I think the only law that needs to be immutable for this to work is this law itself. I can't think of anything else that would be required to be perfectly immutable. My personal taste would be in having some universal, immutable laws, which might give the setting a closer feel to Sandman, but it could work just as easily without them, bringing the tone closer to the Descartes thing.

[Cap. Karnaugh]

Hi there Weave, welcome to CBG.

I'll tell you how my setting works, which coincidentally has some sort of Jungian influence; perhaps you can extract something useful for yours.

In Messalan, Reality is composed by abstract concepts known as Patterns and Colors, as though it were a caleidoscope.

The combination of different Patterns and Colors create different Perspectives, which in turn model what you see, hear, etc. in your reality.

So, whenever there's a conflict between to opposite beliefs (e.g: "Magic exists" vs "Magic is a fairytale"), Reality splits in two different Perspectives. Those who believe in one Perspective will be oblivious to the other; is not that their living in a separate world, but rather perceive it differently. This is akin to Ulan Dohr's tale in Dying Earth (from Jack Vance), where people wearing green clothes (sect of Cazdal) would walk right in front of a Panziu's worshiper (who wore red) and not notice them.

The above is a simplified version of what happens, but it might help you in how you resolve conflicts in your world.

As LordVreeg posted, I don't think is such a good idea to make everyone know that they can shape their Universe at will, perhaps would be better if there was some kind of Awakening or the like.

[Weave]

Hi there Weave, welcome to CBG.

I'll tell you how my setting works, which coincidentally has some sort of Jungian influence; perhaps you can extract something useful for yours.

In Messalan, Reality is composed by abstract concepts known as Patterns and Colors, as though it were a caleidoscope.

The combination of different Patterns and Colors create different Perspectives, which in turn model what you see, hear, etc. in your reality.

So, whenever there's a conflict between to opposite beliefs (e.g: "Magic exists" vs "Magic is a fairytale"), Reality splits in two different Perspectives. Those who believe in one Perspective will be oblivious to the other; is not that their living in a separate world, but rather perceive it differently. This is akin to Ulan Dohr's tale in Dying Earth (from Jack Vance), where people wearing green clothes (sect of Cazdal) would walk right in front of a Panziu's worshiper (who wore red) and not notice them.

The above is a simplified version of what happens, but it might help you in how you resolve conflicts in your world.

As Ghostman posted, I don't think is such a good idea to make everyone know that they can shape their Universe at will, perhaps would be better if there was some kind of Awakening or the like.

That actually sounds very interesting. Could this not result in there being thousands of Perspectives, though? I'd be interested to hear more about it.

I'd probably be looking for something a little more simplified for my GMing nature.

Which brings me to a slight aside: I'm always torn about purposely narrowing something awesome down into more manageable chunks to ease up gaming and player understanding. Sometimes I just want a multidimensional forest to be easy to do a combat in, but it rarely turns out so.