What are the repercussions of having this be a universal law in my setting?

[Cap. Karnaugh]

That actually sounds very interesting. Could this not result in there being thousands of Perspectives, though? I'd be interested to hear more about it.

Indeed, that's something that could -theoretically- happen. It is known by those with the "Look" as the Shattering (the time when everyone becomes isolated in their own void) and many groups are trying to somehow prevent it.

I said theoretically, because it's quite difficult to dissapear -for example- an entire kingdom or race; the effects of a conflict are proportional to its magnitude. So you need lots of people wholeheartedly believing that something it's true (or not) in order to see such a massive effect.

At least in Messalan, most of the effects are much subtler -but not less insidious-: a scent is lost, certain plants cease to exist, some clever idea never manifests...stuff like that. Nevertheless, it is not rare to find cities who don't believe (eg) in Mandtyrs (Bull-men), so when one of them runs into such cities, he finds himself turned into a Gergasi (a giant human) or worst, simply dissapears from the Universe into the Limb -at least until people starts believing again in Mandtyr or move away from that spot-.

In short, the formula would be something like: Effect = believers * rooting of belief * time the belief has been around.

[St0nE]

I am reminded of Mage: the Ascension by this setting idea... it's different enough to not rip it off (the giant dream part), but they do deal with some similar themes (i.e. consensus reality). A medieval fantasy (and more heroic) take on these themes can be quite interesting.

[Weave]

I am reminded of Mage: the Ascension by this setting idea... it's different enough to not rip it off (the giant dream part), but they do deal with some similar themes (i.e. consensus reality). A medieval fantasy (and more heroic) take on these themes can be quite interesting.

It's funny, I've never actually touched Mage: the Ascension before, but you're not the only person who's referred me to it. I'll admit to being a little bummed when I heard something out there has already taken this idea and ran with it, but I'm glad to hear I'm different enough to not shove it off as a rip-off. Part of my setting's creative process is thinking up how people would live in such a "dream world."

[Weave]

Seems Steerpike already beat me to mentioning Sandman, heh. It's a great series, and probably good inspiration for a dream-based setting. A Dream of a Thousand Cats is perfect for this sort of idea.

As for an objective reality, I think the only law that needs to be immutable for this to work is this law itself. I can't think of anything else that would be required to be perfectly immutable. My personal taste would be in having some universal, immutable laws, which might give the setting a closer feel to Sandman, but it could work just as easily without them, bringing the tone closer to the Descartes thing.

Hmm, that might be fun. I was always fond of Isaac Asimov's "3 Laws of Robotics," but I also wouldn't want to add immutable laws for the sake of symmetry. I would have to ponder this for a while and see if there was truly a need for others, but it would be a pretty interesting concept to wrap a setting around.

[arkham618]

I have a setting that I've been developing for several years now thats based off a sort of Jungian dreamscape. Its one of my prime enjoyments because I have to purposely think outside of the regular scheme of how things might work, which is surprisingly tough. One of my latest thoughts regarded the "gods" of the setting, which are essentially the physical manifestation of cultural memes. In other words, they're created from humanoid kind's collective thoughts. It would take an immense amount of collective thought to give a meme a physical appearance (to prevent there from being millions of memes for every small group of like-minded thinkers), but then I wondered: why should this stop at memes?

So from there I've been contemplating the repercussions of allowing whatever is collectively believed to be, well, made true over time (like the gods). For instance, because the vast majority of sailers believe in the tales of the kraken, the kraken thus becomes a real thing.

I've been giving this some thought and I don't think I can work it all out on my own without creating some guidelines... I understand that things can get crazy real fast with this idea, but it nonetheless interests me.

So I ask, would anyone be willing to help me with this? Give some scenarios where this might be interesting, or where it might get crazy? This isn't set in stone, but I see it as a sort of creative thought exercise for myself. What do you guys and gals think?

This sounds very much like the metaphysics from Mage: The Ascension.

[Drizztrocks]

This is a great idea. There is one major flaw, however. How did anything happen ever? If everything is created by beleif, then how did anything come to be before people? If beleifs create deities, then there was nothing around to create anything, including the people who are dreaming. See this? Perhaps have one big creator god that nobody is aware of, and the things that I just mentioned could be one of the huge mysteries of life.


And I am also completely with whoever said that the general population should not know about the way the universe works. Only a few of the very wise should be aware of this.
  I also have an idea: perhaps the harder you concentrate, the more of a difference it makes in the universe. Just a little tweak but it might be interesting.

[Weave]

This is a great idea. There is one major flaw, however. How did anything happen ever? If everything is created by beleif, then how did anything come to be before people? If beleifs create deities, then there was nothing around to create anything, including the people who are dreaming. See this? Perhaps have one big creator god that nobody is aware of, and the things that I just mentioned could be one of the huge mysteries of life.


And I am also completely with whoever said that the general population should not know about the way the universe works. Only a few of the very wise should be aware of this.
  I also have an idea: perhaps the harder you concentrate, the more of a difference it makes in the universe. Just a little tweak but it might be interesting.

Ah, a valid observation! I'm glad you caught it.

Technically, the only "legitimate" god in my setting is the world itself, which dreamt everyone up. This could have laid a basic pallet for which its mortal creations could manipulate. This would make for a good creation mystery for people to contemplate. And yes, only a select portion of the populace would know about this law.

Thanks for the pointers!

[Xeviat]

I think a point based system like Mutants and Masterminds could work well for this actually. As for staying with 3E D&D, the Manual of the Planes had a "Lucid Dreaming" skill in the back amongst the information on the Plane of Dreams. I'd also blend in some of the "divine morphic" planes from Deities and Demigods. A lucid dreaming skill could work for letting any lucid character (and I think all PCs should be lucid, it would be a good justification for why they're so much more awesome than the common rabble) perform some minor things. I'm thinking like a DC 15 check for cantrip level stuff, and +5 DC for every level above that. Use a hero point system as the economy for that, but otherwise let people utilize any spell to help shape the effect they're going for.

I'd also give out those lucid points like candy. Read up on Mutants and Mastermind's hero points for ideas on when to give them out (whenever someone does something really awesome, or as a consolation prize for whenever someone spectacularly fails, though they can't use the point to negate the failure).

I'd love to play in this setting. It's got me all excited.

[Superfluous Crow]

You should try readng "The End of Mr. Y". It's also about how the world came to be through belief (well, in the long run it is).
All the things ever discovered by mankind and science were in fact influenced by the very theories the scientists were trying to prove. So before that, there was nothing; only when mankind actually tried to find a pattern did the pattern come into place.  

Also, consider making it oneway. Dreams and beliefs can only create things, only make new things come into place. You mentioned something like it earlier, where only the "mages" could unbelieve; the power to actually change reality and not just create something new.
Of course, I realize this might be a bit too "stagnant" for what you had in mind. But thought I'd mention it :)
You could always go with this and still have public consciousness influence things, in such a way that you can still have your slanderous warfare and such.

[Teh_Az]

I am reminded of SLA Industries, that nineties RPG game about dream-techno-punk SLAyers trouncing around doing stuff for SLA industries.

This reeks of the Matrix, Gnosticism, and Australian Aboriginal Mythology. I think you should look into those for inspiration.

Other than that, you have something quite fine here. I just think that there needs to be a unifying and standardized element within your game on which to anchor everything else. Without that anchor, everything devolves into paradox and chaos.

I also think you should begin work on some setting fluff already, and don't forgel Carl Jung's take on Spiritual Alchemy. In a reality directly and immediately affected by perceptions rather than objective situations, self-actualization becomes a matter of life and death: oblivion and existence.

[Weave]

I think a point based system like Mutants and Masterminds could work well for this actually. As for staying with 3E D&D, the Manual of the Planes had a "Lucid Dreaming" skill in the back amongst the information on the Plane of Dreams. I'd also blend in some of the "divine morphic" planes from Deities and Demigods. A lucid dreaming skill could work for letting any lucid character (and I think all PCs should be lucid, it would be a good justification for why they're so much more awesome than the common rabble) perform some minor things. I'm thinking like a DC 15 check for cantrip level stuff, and +5 DC for every level above that. Use a hero point system as the economy for that, but otherwise let people utilize any spell to help shape the effect they're going for.

I'd also give out those lucid points like candy. Read up on Mutants and Mastermind's hero points for ideas on when to give them out (whenever someone does something really awesome, or as a consolation prize for whenever someone spectacularly fails, though they can't use the point to negate the failure).

I'd love to play in this setting. It's got me all excited.

Thanks! That means a lot to me from you prestigious folk. I haven't checked out Mutants and Masterminds, is it something I should try picking up? I also had no idea there was a "Lucid Dreaming" skill in the back of the Manual of the Planes... I'm gonna have to peek at that when I get home.

[Weave]

You should try readng "The End of Mr. Y". It's also about how the world came to be through belief (well, in the long run it is).
All the things ever discovered by mankind and science were in fact influenced by the very theories the scientists were trying to prove. So before that, there was nothing; only when mankind actually tried to find a pattern did the pattern come into place.  

Also, consider making it oneway. Dreams and beliefs can only create things, only make new things come into place. You mentioned something like it earlier, where only the "mages" could unbelieve; the power to actually change reality and not just create something new.
Of course, I realize this might be a bit too "stagnant" for what you had in mind. But thought I'd mention it :)
You could always go with this and still have public consciousness influence things, in such a way that you can still have your slanderous warfare and such.

I should really just make a list of books I need to read...
American Gods
Sandman
The End of Mr. Y.

You know, upon reading about your suggestion of it being "one way," I grew sort of thoughtful on the matter, but generally decided I wanted to keep it going in both directions. BUT, I don't necessarily disagree with you; I think it'll just be much easier for mages to "unbelieve" than more "mundane" folk. Well, "heroes," I guess I should say, given that I plan on allowing the PCs to have some leeway on this regardless of whether or not they can use magic.

[brainface]

Something that maybe no one's covered is that most examples listed so far seem to deal with adults and their ideas. Assuming children follow the same rules, they could have some drastic effects as well. Sailors believe kraken exist far out in the ocean. Children believe monsters exist directly under their bed.

One child scared of the monster under their bed might not be enough to create one, but it seems like the boogey man would definitely exist. ^_^ Telling ghost stories might also be a bad idea.

Really, there's a whole host of groundless fears children have. Also adults, to be fair. Like the old wives tale that cats will steal the breath of a sleeping infant. What effect would such fears and superstitions have on your setting?

[Superfluous Crow]

Maybe disbelief has an effect? There are many kids who believe in e.g. Santa, but even more adults who believe him not to exist.

[O Senhor Leetz]

Maybe disbelief has an effect? There are many kids who believe in e.g. Santa, but even more adults who believe him not to exist.

what do you mean? Santa is real.