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World In Motion

Started by LordVreeg, May 31, 2010, 05:19:43 PM

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LordVreeg

I was discussing some bit of immersion on the RPGsite, and a term I have used for decades caught some traction in the discussion, even bringing up another thread.  
The discussion centered around the techniques for creating the feel that the PCs are part of a larger organism, that things are moving with or without the player's input, especially in a Sandbox format.  
Excellent Bat in the Attic post about using it.
here[ is the original spot where is shows up.  I think some of the repsonses are also useful.

Are there any methods or approaches other GM's take to achieve this?  Any historical notes from the past, or any games you want to mention thatit was used well, or should have been used?
VerkonenVreeg, The Nice.Celtricia, World of Factions

Steel Island Online gaming thread
The Collegium Arcana Online Game
Old, evil, twisted, damaged, and afflicted.  Orbis non sufficit.Thread Murderer Extraordinaire, and supposedly pragmatic...\"That is my interpretation. That the same rules designed to reduce the role of the GM and to empower the player also destroyed the autonomy to create a consistent setting. And more importantly, these rules reduce the Roleplaying component of what is supposed to be a \'Fantasy Roleplaying game\' to something else\"-Vreeg

Llum

The link to therpgsite just links back to this thread.

LordVreeg

VerkonenVreeg, The Nice.Celtricia, World of Factions

Steel Island Online gaming thread
The Collegium Arcana Online Game
Old, evil, twisted, damaged, and afflicted.  Orbis non sufficit.Thread Murderer Extraordinaire, and supposedly pragmatic...\"That is my interpretation. That the same rules designed to reduce the role of the GM and to empower the player also destroyed the autonomy to create a consistent setting. And more importantly, these rules reduce the Roleplaying component of what is supposed to be a \'Fantasy Roleplaying game\' to something else\"-Vreeg

Hibou

I don't have any major experiences per se, although when I last was DMing, I did so in Forgotten Realms and every time the players did something I tried to work in some way for them to learn that events I had mentioned as potential adventures were now changing - different dungeons were being raided; assaults on Tethyr were taking place and major cities were being overrun; if they left the dungeon after killing a bunch of enemies, they often would return to see a more alert patrol searching for their fallen comrades and/or those who had slain them. It was perhaps the most difficult part of the process for me, though.

I'm big into chaos theory and am seriously considering looking into it for research with my degree; it seems to tie in somewhat to the whole world in motion idea, although more so with the actions of the players. I find that creating that feel of having a world constantly moving around you and having the actions of the players have realistic consequences is the biggest obstacle for me as a DM - in fact there are a few different campaigns that I've wanted to run in the past, including a spec ops, mid-20th century sci-fi thing that was essentially military X-Files, that I felt unable to run well simply because it seemed the game would require too much of a living, breathing world.
[spoiler=GitHub]https://github.com/threexc[/spoiler]

LordVreeg

Quote from: FREAKINAWESOMEHORSEI don't have any major experiences per se, although when I last was DMing, I did so in Forgotten Realms and every time the players did something I tried to work in some way for them to learn that events I had mentioned as potential adventures were now changing - different dungeons were being raided; assaults on Tethyr were taking place and major cities were being overrun; if they left the dungeon after killing a bunch of enemies, they often would return to see a more alert patrol searching for their fallen comrades and/or those who had slain them. It was perhaps the most difficult part of the process for me, though.

I'm big into chaos theory and am seriously considering looking into it for research with my degree; it seems to tie in somewhat to the whole world in motion idea, although more so with the actions of the players. I find that creating that feel of having a world constantly moving around you and having the actions of the players have realistic consequences is the biggest obstacle for me as a DM - in fact there are a few different campaigns that I've wanted to run in the past, including a spec ops, mid-20th century sci-fi thing that was essentially military X-Files, that I felt unable to run well simply because it seemed the game would require too much of a living, breathing world.
I think it is an obstacle for many GMs, actually, from whay I am reading in many sites.  It is also harder in some game types, since the larger the setting, the more 'data' that has to be constantly put into play and kept track of.

I like the idea of chaos theory as world in motion; it makes some sense.

And the thing about the smaller scale, like the way a raided area responds, is also really important.  I go overboard with that stuff; like reeastblishing command structures, etc, but I think it comes from playing with some module lovers when I was much younger, who just went by the room descriptions no matter how many time we tromped in and out...
VerkonenVreeg, The Nice.Celtricia, World of Factions

Steel Island Online gaming thread
The Collegium Arcana Online Game
Old, evil, twisted, damaged, and afflicted.  Orbis non sufficit.Thread Murderer Extraordinaire, and supposedly pragmatic...\"That is my interpretation. That the same rules designed to reduce the role of the GM and to empower the player also destroyed the autonomy to create a consistent setting. And more importantly, these rules reduce the Roleplaying component of what is supposed to be a \'Fantasy Roleplaying game\' to something else\"-Vreeg

Steerpike

I had one GM a couple of years ago who was the master of this style of game.  It was an Arcana Evolved/Unearthed Game (Monte Cook's variant player's handbook) with a lot of players (like 8 ).  He'd run campaigns in the past in the same version of the world, so previous players were major NPCs and political players.  He kept a massive binder full of notes detailing changes to the world we'd made.  One time a player made up a cult as a front for some other clandestine doings we were involved with.  A few sessions later, the cult had really caught on, and suddenly had a lot more members and a shrine and motives and resources.

LordVreeg

Quote from: SteerpikeI had one GM a couple of years ago who was the master of this style of game.  It was an Arcana Evolved/Unearthed Game (Monte Cook's variant player's handbook) with a lot of players (like 8).  He'd run campaigns in the past in the same version of the world, so previous players were major NPCs and political players.  He kept a massive binder full of notes detailing changes to the world we'd made.  One time a player made up a cult as a front for some other clandestine doings we were involved with.  A few sessions later, the cult had really caught on, and suddenly had a lot more members and a shrine and motives and resources.
This kind of campaign can really have an effect on budding GMs...

The religious-cult thing is a really great example of how the world can move but also how the players can interact with that motion, nudging it along.
Also, having old surviving PCs become NPCs or RCs (remote controlled) contributes to this seamless feel.
Steerpike, is there anything your characters did that nudged along the world's path?
VerkonenVreeg, The Nice.Celtricia, World of Factions

Steel Island Online gaming thread
The Collegium Arcana Online Game
Old, evil, twisted, damaged, and afflicted.  Orbis non sufficit.Thread Murderer Extraordinaire, and supposedly pragmatic...\"That is my interpretation. That the same rules designed to reduce the role of the GM and to empower the player also destroyed the autonomy to create a consistent setting. And more importantly, these rules reduce the Roleplaying component of what is supposed to be a \'Fantasy Roleplaying game\' to something else\"-Vreeg

Steerpike

One time we were rescuing a community from an oncoming army (a few days away) through a tunnel-system, but we had to improvise a lift made from bits and pieces in order to get down a cliff face.  My character was an Akashic - a skill-monkey who could pull knowledge and skills out of the Akashic Field, a little bit like bardic knowledge.  My character designed and built (with some help) a crude lift system to help get the villagers down.  Those displaced villagers then settled a new region and started  anew village which we could visit later on.  So, essentially, my character indirectly founded a new town.

sparkletwist

I like this style of play, as it lends credibility and realism to the world, and makes it feel like there is a living, breathing world instead of just a static environment that only responds to player actions. However, I feel that the game should still center on the players, regardless of what is going on in the background. While the style of GM that just reads out of the module and doesn't react one bit to what the players are doing is not generally desirable, I think the other side of this needs to be mentioned as well, where the players feel like they're in a world that they have no control over and the entire story is essentially being run by powerful NPCs.

It's probably not as common of a problem, but I feel the need to mention it if only because quite some time ago I played Vampire (that is, VtM, not VtR, so you can tell it *was* quite some time ago) with a Storyteller (GM) who went entirely too far the other way. There were a great many factions and powerful entities, and interesting things going on in the background, which started off making it seem like this was going to be a very interesting and fun tale to RP. The problem was, the PCs were, for the most part, just observers. The plot was going to happen no matter what we did. In some ways, this is the "world in motion" taken to extremes, the motion becoming so strong that it's a railroad. I should clear up, though, that I don't believe this sort of railroading is an inherent problem with a "world in motion" style of running the game. It just comes from a GM being too self-absorbed, probably, and being more interested in playing his interesting NPCs as PCs, more or less, rather than running the game for the real PCs.

LordVreeg

Quote from: SteerpikeOne time we were rescuing a community from an oncoming army (a few days away) through a tunnel-system, but we had to improvise a lift made from bits and pieces in order to get down a cliff face.  My character was an Akashic - a skill-monkey who could pull knowledge and skills out of the Akashic Field, a little bit like bardic knowledge.  My character designed and built (with some help) a crude lift system to help get the villagers down.  Those displaced villagers then settled a new region and started  anew village which we could visit later on.  So, essentially, my character indirectly founded a new town.
Now that is tremendous.  Both the idea of the Akashic, and especially the moving and founding of a village, that as you said...was a place you could visit later on...thus being part of the 'World in Motion' stream.   Very cool....
VerkonenVreeg, The Nice.Celtricia, World of Factions

Steel Island Online gaming thread
The Collegium Arcana Online Game
Old, evil, twisted, damaged, and afflicted.  Orbis non sufficit.Thread Murderer Extraordinaire, and supposedly pragmatic...\"That is my interpretation. That the same rules designed to reduce the role of the GM and to empower the player also destroyed the autonomy to create a consistent setting. And more importantly, these rules reduce the Roleplaying component of what is supposed to be a \'Fantasy Roleplaying game\' to something else\"-Vreeg

Steerpike

Sparkletwist, I know what you mean.

The aforementioned game was mostly very excellent; the world in motion thing worked very well and we always felt like we could contribute to the story and the plot.  Sometimes, though, the GM went too far in the other direction, especially towards the end of one campaign (I played a couple in his persistent universe, with a total of 3 different characters).  We kept running into these uber-powerful creatures and entities which all had very interesting motivations and whatnot, but after awhile we really started to feel rather impotent, like we were at the bottom of the food chain, not really the movers and shakers.  It got better towards the very end, but for awhile it was kind of frustrating: it wasn't so much that we couldn't defeat the creatures/NPCs we met in combat (most of the time we wouldn't have been interested in fighting anyway), but that it started to feel like we were just pawns in a much more interesting game being played by the NPCs...

Hibou

Quote from: sparkletwistI like this style of play, as it lends credibility and realism to the world, and makes it feel like there is a living, breathing world instead of just a static environment that only responds to player actions. However, I feel that the game should still center on the players, regardless of what is going on in the background. While the style of GM that just reads out of the module and doesn't react one bit to what the players are doing is not generally desirable, I think the other side of this needs to be mentioned as well, where the players feel like they're in a world that they have no control over and the entire story is essentially being run by powerful NPCs.

It's probably not as common of a problem, but I feel the need to mention it if only because quite some time ago I played Vampire (that is, VtM, not VtR, so you can tell it *was* quite some time ago) with a Storyteller (GM) who went entirely too far the other way. There were a great many factions and powerful entities, and interesting things going on in the background, which started off making it seem like this was going to be a very interesting and fun tale to RP. The problem was, the PCs were, for the most part, just observers. The plot was going to happen no matter what we did. In some ways, this is the "world in motion" taken to extremes, the motion becoming so strong that it's a railroad. I should clear up, though, that I don't believe this sort of railroading is an inherent problem with a "world in motion" style of running the game. It just comes from a GM being too self-absorbed, probably, and being more interested in playing his interesting NPCs as PCs, more or less, rather than running the game for the real PCs.

I actually had the exact same thing happen to me in a VtM game (also VtM and not VtR). It seems that the White Wolf series are much more prone to this (or at least the three major ones are). Really this goes entirely beyond the "world in motion" concept and steps into the realm of someone using a "game" as a ploy to get people to pay attention to a story they have in mind that they think is FREAKIN' AWESOME. This is actually something that the DM needs to be very careful of... I can agree that it should ultimately still be about the players, and that's probably something that any GM should keep in mind while attempting to make their world fluid.

Do you guys think that a bunch of members could get a community project up and running involving writing a resource for this sort of thing? It'd go right along with the title and mission. :D
[spoiler=GitHub]https://github.com/threexc[/spoiler]

LordVreeg

Quote from: SteerpikeSparkletwist, I know what you mean.

The aforementioned game was mostly very excellent; the world in motion thing worked very well and we always felt like we could contribute to the story and the plot.  Sometimes, though, the GM went too far in the other direction, especially towards the end of one campaign (I played a couple in his persistent universe, with a total of 3 different characters).  We kept running into these uber-powerful creatures and entities which all had very interesting motivations and whatnot, but after awhile we really started to feel rather impotent, like we were at the bottom of the food chain, not really the movers and shakers.  It got better towards the very end, but for awhile it was kind of frustrating: it wasn't so much that we couldn't defeat the creatures/NPCs we met in combat (most of the time we wouldn't have been interested in fighting anyway), but that it started to feel like we were just pawns in a much more interesting game being played by the NPCs...

And this could be called,
"Balancing the World in Mortion with The Characters as Protagonists".
Which is actually a real balancing act, when you get good at the WiM DM skill.  The better and more compelling the storyline(s) become , and the better you become at juggling multiple levels of casue and effect datapoints all around the locales of the PCs, the more willing you have to be to drop everything and allow the PCs to become the protagonists.


Steerpike and Sparkle are actually talking about slightly different issues, or the same issue with different root causes.  Sparkle is referring to to what I am alluding to above, the GM falling in love with their own story, treating the game as too much their pure creative outlet and not enough the collaborative creative outlet.
(I always laugh when a GM (sometimes it is still me) complains that the PCs 'broke' part of a storyline or plot...that what the game is for, that's what they are supposed to do)

Steerpike's issue is similar, but it ties into the growth curve of a ruleset. The larger the distance between common folk and Pcs and higher levels of PCs, the larger the 'Mortality gap', the more that power gap affects the reality of the plotline.  
In a very quick example, it becomes very clear to anyone who has played a 'High Mortality gap' game that levelled folk run the world, and that personal power translates into political/social power.  So the Movers and shakers are always higher power, and this makes the balance mentioned above, the World in Motion vs the Characters as Protagonists MUCH harder to achieve realistically.    
VerkonenVreeg, The Nice.Celtricia, World of Factions

Steel Island Online gaming thread
The Collegium Arcana Online Game
Old, evil, twisted, damaged, and afflicted.  Orbis non sufficit.Thread Murderer Extraordinaire, and supposedly pragmatic...\"That is my interpretation. That the same rules designed to reduce the role of the GM and to empower the player also destroyed the autonomy to create a consistent setting. And more importantly, these rules reduce the Roleplaying component of what is supposed to be a \'Fantasy Roleplaying game\' to something else\"-Vreeg

Steerpike

Ironically I think the issue was actually complicated by one of my characters' abilities.  He was a Witch, which in this world meant he had the ability to sense someone else's power: in game terms, this meant I could tell someone's level just by looking at them for a few moments.  So whereas before we might get a vague sense of someone's power based on their description, now we actually knew that we were faced with these daunting 18th level characters...

Ninja D!

I think that presenting a world in motion is very important to making a consistent world feel believable, even if it is utterly fantastic. It is also very difficult to do well, with the issues mentioned here only some of the possible ones that could arise.