The Campaign Builder's Guild

My creativity has been dead in the water for some time now, but today marks my creativity's triumphant return. But this is analytical creativity, and that means it's Crunch boys (and girls if we have any).

As many of you know, I created an MP system, following in the footsteps of the XPH Power Point system. I did this for two reasons: 1) I hate spell slots, and 2) MP makes more sense. I only mention that because it may give you an idea of what I'm going for here.

[note=Realism vs. Playability]Before I go further, I'd like to mention this principle, a guiding principle in all games. Realism must be tempered by simplicity; if a rule seems realistic but is difficult to administer, then it doesn't add to the enjoyment of the game. Similarly, as a game, both are tempered by enjoyment: if a rule, no matter how realistic or simple, isn't fun, then it doesn't add to the game as well. I'll try to discuss this point in the Pros and Cons sections after each of my points[/note]Wound/Vitality Points: d20 and D&D are rife with offenders to realism. The first and foremost offender is the HP system; luckily, the WP/VP system almost entirely corrects this deficiency. It isn't everyone's cup of tea, but I do think it adds suitable realism to the game while keeping things heroic. As an aside, the WP/VP system really helps DMs describe the action; when a 200 hp barbarian is hit with 50 arrows, each dealing around 4 vitality damage, you don't have to worry about the barbarian walking around with 50 arrows stuck in them (in wp/vp systems, vitality represents a character's endurance and ability to turn aside blows, so the arrows merely grazed or struck but didn't penetrate).

[ic=Pros]The VP/WP system makes the game easier for the DM to describe, and for the player to imagine; VP damage doesn't seem scary, and it shouldn't be, but WP damage gets a player worried like nothing else, and forces caution, just like the character would probably feel. The system is more realistic by making critical hits more dangerous, and this again helps by encouraging caution (and nothing is cooler than when a PC takes out an opponent with a lucky crit). As a plus, it is easy to implement, with Healing effects being the most difficult change to make.[/ic]

[note=Counter Point] The work has been done on minor rule conversions, so that is a moot point, so long as the minor rule changes are simple enough to implement. The actual and perceived threat of the game can be addressed through changes to the death and dying mechanic; this is a slippery slope counter though.[/note]
[ooc= Cons]The system seems quite deadly: Critical hits are rare, but the actual deadliness of critical hits can combine with player's misgivings of the system to create real dread. Being as this is a change to a fundamental mechanic, many little changes must be taken into account (natural and magical healing, effects like temporary hp, nonlethal damage, and possibly others that I haven't noticed).[/ooc]

Additionally, I have been looking into modifying many of the special combat actions, primarily in an attempt to make them more useful (or at least more used), but also to boost realism (I'm looking toward the real for methods of boosting value).

For instance, Bull Rush is one of the largest offenders. Like a Ranger's Favored Enemy, the DM decides when it will be useful; while the PC does initiate a Bull Rush, the DM determines the terrain, and thus the effectiveness of Bull Rushing. So, to make Bull Rush more useful, and used, I'm working on adding three abilities to it: adding damage to Bull Rush, adding trip potential, and mixing in a "throw" mechanic.

Here's what I have so far:

Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defenderâ,¬,,¢s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet. If you wish to move with the defender, you can push him back an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defenderâ,¬,,¢s check result. You canâ,¬,,¢t, however, exceed your normal movement limit. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.) Additionally, the defender must succeed a Reflex save (DC = your strength check) or fall prone upon completing the movement.
If you fail to beat the defenderâ,¬,,¢s Strength check result, you move 5 feet straight back to where you were before you moved into his space. If that space is occupied, you fall prone in that space unless you succeed a Reflex save (DC = the defender's Strength check).
What if Square is Occupied?: If the square you bull rush your opponent into is occupied by an object which takes up the entire square, their movement is halted and both the defender and the object suffer 1d6 points for every 10 points your Strength check exceeded there's; objects typically have hardness, which affords them protection from this damage. Additionally, the defender must succeed a Reflex save (DC = your strength check) or fall prone.
If the square you bull rush the defender into is occupied by a creature or an object which does not take up the entire square, their movement is not halted (as long as both the creature and object can occupy the same square). The object or secondary creature suffers damage as above, but it may attempt a Reflex save (DC = your strength check result) to negate the damage. Both the defender and secondary creature (not object) must succeed another Reflex save (same DC) or fall prone as well (the secondary creature gains a +4 circumstance bonus on this saving throw).
Throw: If your Strength check exceeds the defender's by 15 or more, you may choose to reduce the maximum distance you can push them back by 10 feet in order to throw them back. Rather than move with the defender, the defender is thrown back. The defender may still fall prone, but now they are able to make jump or tumble checks, or use other abilities that reduce falling damage, to reduce the damage they take if they strike an object.

I'm still working on the prone mechanic; it should probably be a balance check (and thus be modified by the terrain), but then the DC should probably be equal to the amount you beat their strength check by (so that the DC isn't too high; heavy armored defenders have horrible balance checks). That's probably better.

The other two mechanics I'm looking at altering are Trip and Overrun. Overrun is on my list to be altered because I've never once in 5 years of gaming seen a PC use it. I may add some unarmed damage to Overrun (being hit by a moving object, be it a fist, person, or a car, deals damage after all).

Trip, on the other hand, is being looked at because I've found it to be abused too much, and for realism's sake: being thrown to the ground can hurt, but that might possibly be represented by the Improved Trip feat.

Well, that's all I have for today. I'm starting my d20 2.0 project soon, so expect some info on that in the weeks/months to come.

I am all in. I've still got unresolved issues with VP/WP but would really like to get my hands on a usable version. And I'll be glad to discuss those combat actions as well, though I haven't really messed with them in the past.

This looks like fun.

Some future "issues" (double meaning there):

Feint: I'd like to see feint being more beneficial to Two-Weapon Fighters (especially since I may remove flanking sneak attacks from my games; more later). I'll accomplish this by changing improved feint to make feint an attack action or a move action, so a Two-Weapon Fighter could feint with their offhand and attack with their primary hand; to me this just seems realistic and useful.

Disarm/Sunder continuity issues: There is a continuity issue between disarm and sunder. When disarming a worn object, the disarmer uses an opposed attack roll still; alternately, when sundering a worn object, the sunderer attacks the object's AC. Additionally, sundering a worn object, like someone's pants, without hurting them makes little sense.

I did a rapid adoption of WP/VP in Altvogge.  I love it, though I had to altersome stuff, notably Sneak Attack.

Quote from: XeviatFeint: I'd like to see feint being more beneficial to Two-Weapon Fighters (especially since I may remove flanking sneak attacks from my games; more later). I'll accomplish this by changing improved feint to make feint an attack action or a move action, so a Two-Weapon Fighter could feint with their offhand and attack with their primary hand; to me this just seems realistic and useful.

So, Improved Feint would let someone Feint as a move action like always, or it would let someone with multiple attacks in a Full Attack feint in place of any of those attack rolls? Very interesting.

Here's my problem with WP/VP:
Critical Hits, generally speaking, favor the bad guys.  Four PCs fighting four orcs is a fair fight with this system; the law of averages says that most likely, the orcs will get just as many critical hits on the PCs as the PCs do on the orcs.  However, we all know that PCs fight a lot more orcs than orcs fight PCs.  One PC probably fights - in the course of one action-based adventure - ten to fifteen orcs.  While he still has, statistically speaking, the same percentage chance to deal each of these orcs a lethal blow, they have a much larger chance (by adding up all their different attacks over the course of an entire session) of dealing him a lethal blow.  In the WP/VP system, there is the scary chance almost each-and-every-single battle that an orc will fell the PC with a lucky hit; now sure, there's also a chance that the PC will fell an orc with a lucky hit, but for two specific reasons, we aren't worried about that:
A - One PC encounters many more orcs than one orc encounters PCs in a D&D session (does that sentence make sense?), and
B - The adventure is about the heroes, not the orcs, so we aren't really worried about how many orcs die.

I feel that, at least for the critical hit aspect of WP/VP, this system gives a very scary advantage to the DM, and subsequently, the bad guys.

I'm not entirely sure my point came across as clearly as I'm thinking of it in my head; does anyone else get what I'm saying?

My Full VP/WP Rules
Your vitality points measure how hard you are to hit, while your wound points represent how hard you are to kill. No matter how many vitality points you lose, your character isnâ,¬,,¢t hindered in any way until your vitality points drop to 0 or lower.

LOSS OF VITALITY POINTS
Most attacks deal vitality damage if your character has vitality points remaining.
What Vitality Points Represent: Vitality points mean two things in the game world: the ability to exert oneself and keep going, and the ability to turn a serious blow into a glancing blow or a near miss.
Determining Vitality Points: Each class level you gain grants a hit die, which you roll to determine the amount of vitality points you gain for that level; you add your constitution modifier to each roll of a hit die, and your first class hit die is maximized.
Effects of Vitality Point Damage: Vitality damage doesnâ,¬,,¢t slow you down until your current vitality points reach 0 or lower. At 0 vitality points, youâ,¬,,¢re fatigued.
Once your vitality points are reduced to 0, you can no longer avoid taking physical damage; all further damage is applied to wound points.

LOSS OF WOUND POINTS
Your character suffers damage to wound points when ever they are out of vitality points or when ever they are struck with a critical hit.
What Wound Points Represent: Wound points represent your character's ability to survive painful wounds and injuries; the more wound points your character has, the more punishment they can take.
Determining Wound Points: Your character has a number of wound points equal to their constitution score. Constitution penalties do not affect wound points (such as from fatigue), but constitution damage and drain do.
Effects of Wound Point Damage: Even one point of wound damage hinders a character; when ever your character's wound points are not full, they are fatigued.
Once your wound points are reduced to 0, you are exhausted. Further damage continues into negative wound points.
Effects of Negative Wound Points: When an attack reduces a character to negative wound points, that character must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per -5 wound points). Success means that the character is disabled; failure indicates that they are dying. Failure by 10 or more means the character is dead (if the character rolls a natural 1, they are automatically dying, then calculate the numerical result; if they missed the save DC by 10 or more, they are dead).

DISABLED
When your character succeeds their Fortitude save after being reduced to negative wound points, they are disabled.
Effects of the Disabled Condition: A disabled character is conscious and exhausted. Taking move actions doesn't risk further injury, but if a disabled character takes any standard action (or any other action the DM deems strenuous, including some swift actions such as casting a quickened spell), they suffer one point of wound damage.
Effects of Damage while Disabled: If a disabled character takes any wound damage (including the self inflicted wound damage dealt when performing a strenuous action while disabled), that character must attempt a new Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per -5 wound points). The results are determined as above, with one exception: a result of disabled means that the character is now dying (unless they possess the Diehard feat).

DYING
When your character fails their Fortitude save after being reduced to negative wound points, they are dying.
Effects of the Dying Condition: A dying character falls prone and is unconscious and near death (and still exhausted).
Each round on their turn, a dying character must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per -5 wound points).
If the character fails the save, they die.
If the character succeeds on the save by less than 5, they suffer one point of wound damage, but their condition remains the same.
If the character succeeds on the save by 5 or more but by less than 10, they become stable (see below).
If the character succeeds on the save by 10 or more, they become conscious and are merely disabled once more.
Another character can make a dying character stable by attempting on a Heal check (DC 10, +1 per -5 wound points) as a standard action (which provokes attacks of opportunity). The results are the same as above, except that a character with 5 ranks in Heal merely deals 1 point of wound damage on a failed save, and doesn't deal wound damage on successful check. This check may only be performed once per round (so multiple healers cannot attempt checks on the same character, though they can aid another as usual).
Effects of Damage while Dying: If a dying character is dealt wound damage from an attack (not from the wound damage they suffer on a save that fails to succeed by more than 5), they must succeed a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per -5 wound points) or die; success means that the character lives but is still dying.

STABLE
A stable character is prone and unconscious (and still exhausted).
Effects of the Stable Condition: Every hour, a stable character must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per -5 wound points).
If the character fails the save, they suffer one point of wound damage and return to the dying condition.
If the character succeeds on the save by less than 5, they suffer one point of wound damage, but otherwise remain stable.
If the character succeeds on the save by 5 or more, they become are now unconscious and considered to be resting. They will now begin healing at their normal rate.
Another character can assist a stable character in recovery by tending to the character for at least 10 minutes during an hour. After the stable character attempts their hourly Fortitude save, the character tending to them can attempt a Heal check (DC 10, +1 per -5 wound points of the target). The results are the same as above, except that a character with 5 ranks in Heal does not further injure the target when tending to them.
Effects of Damage while Stable: If a stable character is dealt wound damage from an attack (not from the wound damage they suffer on a failed Fort save or one which fails to succeed by more than 5), they must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per -5 wound points). Failure means the character is now dead, success means the character is now dying, and success by 10 or more means the character remains stable.

DEAD
When the results of your, they are dead. A character can also die from taking ability damage or suffering an ability drain that reduces their Constitution to 0 (suffering an ability penalty that equals or exceeds a character's Constitution score merely means they are unconscious).

HEALING
After taking damage, you can recover vitality or wound points through natural healing or through magical healing. In any case, you canâ,¬,,¢t regain vitality or wound points past your full normal totals.
Natural Healing: Each hour of rest, your character recovers 1 vitality point per character level. An hour of rest is any hour in which your character does nothing but take a single move action for the majority of the hour (one skirmish in an hour wouldn't deny one this healing, but an hour spent hustling would).
With a full nightâ,¬,,¢s rest (8 hours of sleep or more), you recover 1 wound point per character level. Any significant interruption during your rest prevents you from healing that night. A character with negative wound points does not recover vitality points naturally while resting.
If you undergo complete bed rest for an entire day and night, your healing rate is doubled (2 vp per hour per level, and 2 wp per day per level).
Assisted Healing: One character can tend to another character with the heal skill, either increasing their natural healing (increasing the rate at which the character heals naturally) or providing first aid (converting wound damage to vitality damage).
Magical Healing: Various abilities and spells can restore vitality points or wound points. Generally, wound damage is harder to heal than vitality damage.
Healing Limits: You can never recover more vitality or wound points than you lost. Magical healing wonâ,¬,,¢t raise your current vitality or wound points higher than your full normal total.
While dying, any amount of magical healing to wound points will instantly make the target stable.
Healing Ability Damage: Ability damage is temporary, just as hit point damage is. Ability damage returns at the rate of 1 point per night of rest (8 hours) for each affected ability score. Complete bed rest restores 2 points per day (24 hours) for each affected ability score.

TEMPORARY VITALITY AND WOUND POINTS
Certain effects give a character temporary vitality or wound points. When a character gains temporary vitality or wound points, note their current vitality or wound point total. When the character suffers damage, the damage is subtracted from their temporary vitality or wound points first.
When temporary vitality or wound points are lost, they cannot be restored as real vitality or wound points can be, even by magic. Temporary vitality or wound points do not stack either, so a character in possession of temporary vitality or wound points who benefits from another effect which grants temporary vitality or wound points only gains more if the new effect grants more than their current total.
Increases in Constitution Score and Current Vitality and Wound Points: An increase in a characterâ,¬,,¢s Constitution score, even a temporary one, can give her more vitality and points (an effective vitality or wound point increase), but these are not temporary vitality or wound points. They can be restored and they are not lost first as temporary vitality or wound points are.

NONLETHAL DAMAGE
Dealing Nonlethal Damage: Certain attacks deal nonlethal damage. Other effects, such as heat or being exhausted, also deal nonlethal damage. While your character still has vitality points, nonlethal damage is applied to vitality points normally. The difference does not become apparent unless nonlethal damage must be applied to wound points, such as when your character possesses no vitality points or when nonlethal attack scores a critical hit. Do not deduct the nonlethal damage number from your current wound points. It is not â,¬Å"realâ,¬Â damage.
Effects of Nonlethal Damage: While a character retains vitality points, nonlethal damage is subtracted from their vitality points, unless the attack is a critical hit. Unlike normal wound damage, possessing nonlethal damage does not fatigue a character until it equals their current wound point total.
When an attack or effect increases character's nonlethal damage above their current wound points, they must attempt a Fortitude save (DC 10, +1 per difference of 5 points). A successful save means the character is staggered, and a failed save means the character falls prone and is unconscious. A character must make this check each time their nonlethal damage increases or their wound points decrease while their nonlethal damage exceeds their wound points.
Nonlethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Lethal Damage: You can use a melee weapon that deals lethal damage to deal nonlethal damage instead, but you take a â,¬'4 penalty on your attack roll.
Lethal Damage with a Weapon that Deals Nonlethal Damage: You can use a weapon that deals nonlethal damage, including an unarmed strike, to deal lethal damage instead, but you take a â,¬'4 penalty on your attack roll.
Staggered and Unconscious: When your character succeeds a Fortitude save vs. an attack which increases their nonlethal damage above their wound total, they are staggered for one round (in addition to being fatigued). A staggered character can only take a single move or standard action.
When your character fails the same save, they fall prone and are unconscious. While unconscious, you are helpless. An unconscious character
Healing Nonlethal Damage: You heal nonlethal damage at the rate of 1 point per hour per character level.
When a spell or a effect cures vitality or wound point damage, it also removes an equal amount of nonlethal damage.

MAGICAL HEALING
Cure heals VP equal to the dice of healing, and WP equal to the caster level bonus. Excess WP healing carry's over to VP, but excess VP healing does not carry over to WP.
Spells and abilities which heal a set number of points, such as Lay on Hands and the Heal spell, heal WP first, then carry over to VP.
Grim and Gritty: To make the game more lethal, but still fun, Cure heals only VP. Heal heals WP first, then VP, as normal. This helps the continuity of the game as well; common-folk who suffer injuries will seak traditional medicine (the heal skill) because magic which cures Wounds is harder to come by. This also makes the Heal skill more useful, due to the addition of the First Aid ability (converting WP damage to VP damage).

FIRST AID
As a full round action, a character may attempt a Heal check (DC 15) to convert one point of the target's WP damage to VP damage. For every 2 they exceed this DC, an additional 1 WP damage is converted to VP damage. This cannot be performed more than once per hour on a single character (multiple healers should use Aid Another), and cannot be done on a target with no VP remaining.

THREAT RANGES AND CRITICAL MULTIPLIERS
The VP/WP system from UA makes all weapons high threat range if they had a high multiplier; while this is balanced, it isn't fun. A pick shouldn't be the same as a rapier!

There are two simple rules to change this if you don't like it. First, when you score a threat, roll damage normally and apply this to VP, then roll to confirm.

Secondly, reduce all weapon's multipliers by 1: x2 becomes x1; x3 becomes x2; x4 becomes x3. If your critical confirmation roll succeeds, multiply the VP damage you dealt and apply this to WP.

This is slightly complicated for balance: Let me explain. If I didn't have crits deal VP damage as well, then an Axe would deal more VP damage and the same WP damage on average than a Sword. A sword gets twice as many crits as an axe does, but the axe does twice as much damage with crits.

I've played with this variant of my design for a while and it's been fun. The scythe wielder doesn't crit often, but when he does ... game over.
Grim and Gritty: In the real world, someone can be killed with one knife wound; this won't happen in D&D without a rediculous strength score. There's no way that a hero is going to walk around with a 4 con, I'm sorry. So, to fix this, try implimenting "explosive criticals": If you roll a critical threat on your critical confirmation roll, deal wound damage normally, then roll another threat check; if this is a successful hit, deal wound damage again. Fun times.

If you combine this system with you MP system will mages be able to tap into their VP to gain extra MP?

I changed WP/VP criticals thusly:

Critical Hits
A critical hitâ,¬,,¢s multiplied damage is applied to your foeâ,¬,,¢s vitality points.  In addition to this, you roll your weaponâ,¬,,¢s normal damage die and apply that roll, without any modifiers, to your foeâ,¬,,¢s wound points.  
Any critical hit automatically overcomes a creatureâ,¬,,¢s damage reduction, regardless of whether or not the attack could normally do so.

Quote from: PoseidonIf you combine this system with you MP system will mages be able to tap into their VP to gain extra MP?

Perhaps; probably with a feat (I could alter Overchannel so that it functions like Wild Surge; instead of allowing the caster to spend more MP than normal, the feat will pay for some of the MP with VP).

I started playing Star Wars, and I really like that VP powers their "magic"; it really fits certain descriptive elements in different stories (where casters tire), but there are other ways of doing this as well.

Quote from: CYMRO.  Have you heard the good news about cabbage?I changed WP/VP criticals thusly:

Critical Hits
A critical hitâ,¬,,¢s multiplied damage is applied to your foeâ,¬,,¢s vitality points.  In addition to this, you roll your weaponâ,¬,,¢s normal damage die and apply that roll, without any modifiers, to your foeâ,¬,,¢s wound points.  
Any critical hit automatically overcomes a creatureâ,¬,,¢s damage reduction, regardless of whether or not the attack could normally do so.

I think this is a really elegant solution to the critical hits problem, since it keeps critical hits from being as deadly as they would be in normal VP/WP system.

Xathan and CYMRO: I think CYMRO's ruling partially defeats the purpose of critical hits in the game. With standard fights lasting less than 10 rounds, the likelyhood of being criticaled multiple times is rather low, unless your DM uses NPCs frequently.

Additionally, it has one problem: high threat range weapons are better in that system, unless the wound damage is multiplied by 1 less than the weapon's multiplier. Yes, an axe will deal more VP damage on a crit, but it will do the same WP damage (d8) on a crit as a sword will, while the sword is critting twice as often.

See what I mean?

Quote from: XeviatXathan and CYMRO: I think CYMRO's ruling partially defeats the purpose of critical hits in the game. With standard fights lasting less than 10 rounds, the likelyhood of being criticaled multiple times is rather low, unless your DM uses NPCs frequently.

Additionally, it has one problem: high threat range weapons are better in that system, unless the wound damage is multiplied by 1 less than the weapon's multiplier. Yes, an axe will deal more VP damage on a crit, but it will do the same WP damage (d8) on a crit as a sword will, while the sword is critting twice as often.

See what I mean?

That is because a sword is a better weapon. :P
Axes are for chopping wood.  :lmao:

Actually, a sword is more likely to get through an opponent's defense because of the nature of the weapon's design.

Quote from: CYMRO.  Have you heard the good news about cabbage?That is because a sword is a better weapon. :P
Axes are for chopping wood.  :lmao:

Now imagine two swords...with their handles joined with a chain. Sword-chucks HO! -Fighter (may not be an exact quote, but its what I can remember)

Quote from: CuirassierCYMROActually, a sword is more likely to get through an opponent's defense because of the nature of the weapon's design.

Precisely why the Sword and Axe shouldn't have the same threat ranges as they do in the UA presentation of wound points. Axes are great when you can hit a specific spot; that seems to be why axes are used to chop down trees, or behead people, rather than swords (makes you also wonder if not being able to critically hit certain ...... ...

OMFG! My wound/vitality system has just given me a new idea! Thank you CYMRO! Normally, certain creatures/types are immune to critical hits, but those creatures typically have only wound points equal to their vitality points. Because high multiplier items deal additional wound damage on a crit, I can keep that property of those weapons.

Think about it: Chopping at a tree is comparable to a coup de grace, and corporeal undead do have weak points (joints and what not), so it doesn't seem entirely out of the ordinary.

It would make hammers and axes useful against undead, where as swords "tend" to be more useful against humanoids (because one crit will fatigue a target, so it's best to get that crit as early and often as possible).

I like that ...