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A magicless race

Started by Poseptune, July 26, 2006, 06:14:07 PM

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Poseptune

What if there was a race of intelligent humnaoid creatures that could not be touch by or see magic. I am currently reading a series called The Sword of Truth by Terry Goodkind. A couple of books back he introduced a culture of humans that magic users can't sense with their magic nor can they see or be effected by magic. Today I began thinking about what a race like this would do to a medium magic level campaign setting.

They would see the true form of any one under the an disguise self or other illusion spells spells. A fireball would explode around them, but they would emerge untouched. Things moved by magic would still effect them, such as a mage using magic to drop a boulder on a member of this race the boulder would hurt the target.

This race would be unable to take classes that delve into magic both arcane and divine.

What do you guys think? Would it be worth developing this race or would it be too much trouble? What do I do about spells or ablitities that alter the subjects appearance, like alter self, polymorph, wildshape, etc...?
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 Markas Dalton

CYMRO

QuoteWhat do you guys think? Would it be worth developing this race or would it be too much trouble?

Would be interesting to see such a race.

QuoteWhat do I do about spells or ablitities that alter the subjects appearance, like alter self, polymorph, wildshape, etc...?

They would just see through those affects.  It would be like looking looking through dispel magic colored glasses.  Or something...

Numinous

I was toying with the idea of making a imilar template, based on the Resistants, from the webcomic Dominic Deegan.  The main problem with it was it's hevy reliance on DM/player trust to ensure the template was balanced.
Previously: Natural 20, Critical Threat, Rose of Montague
- Currently working on: The Smoking Hills - A bottom-up, seat-of-my-pants, fairy tale adventure!

CYMRO

How would such a race react to psionics?

Poseptune

I was wondering the same thing. It would depend on how the DM interprets psionic (same as magic or a completely different entity). I honestly don't know much about psionics and haven't decided whether it will be in this setting.

I am still thinking this through. I wanted to get some feedback on the idea. As I flesh out this race more I will post information.
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 Markas Dalton

CYMRO

It seems a natural for a Psionics Are Different environment.

Would this unmagic race be for players, or strictly NPCs?

Poseptune

I would allow it for a playable race, but they will be warned that healing magic will not work on them, and their class choices will be severely diminished.
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 Markas Dalton

CYMRO

Quote from: PoseidonI would allow it for a playable race, but they will be warned that healing magic will not work on them, and their class choices will be severely diminished.

For such a race, an Herbal healing feat to amp up the healing skill could come in quite handy.

So, fighter, monk, diminished rogue. What else?


Lmns Crn

There's a lot of problems inherent in this sort of thing, as such a race will drastically alter the way magic's perceived and used in the world. There's also a strong potential for gimmickry (as such a race will be pretty much a one-trick pony nine times out of eight), and the unavoidable creation of situations that make very little sense.

I'm not saying the problems are insurmountable, but for me, they wouldn't be worth the hassle. Unless I planned to make this magicless race a primary feature of my setting, I wouldn't bother.

Having them completely immune to magic directly messes with a big part of the way the game's set up (unless you want to rewrite all of that as well.)

Let's list a few of the logical effects of a magic immune race in-game, without even worrying for now about the backflips one would have to do to balance such a thing:

1. Magical healing will not affect them. In any kind of standard campaign setting with standard combat mechanics, that alone would put me off the idea of such a race entirely.
2. Magic items function as normal in their hands. Where do higher-level characters unload their cash, if not on magic gear?
3. They're stuck on one plane, because Plane Shift, portals, etc. do not affect them. Better not plan on teleportation or any sort of planar travel.
4. Their mere existence essentially annuls the entire Illusion line of magic; no right-thinking spellcaster would want to rely on it.
5. Against any spellcaster with a brain, automatic stalemate. The Mage is unable to harm the Magicless with spells, and the Magicless is automatically absolutely unable to counter when the Mage flies away, becomes invisible, teleports away, etc.

Beyond all of that, it forces you to draw some fairly arbitrary lines on the subject of magic. Consider Fireball-- are the Magicless immune to it or not?

At the heart of it, Fireball just creates a mass of fire. If the Magicless are immune, are the also immune to normal, nonmagical fire, and if not, what's the difference between that and the fire created by magic? If a mage uses magic to start a forest fire, does the nonmagically-sustained forest fire burn a Magicless?

If we say that fire doesn't affect a Magicless when it's created by a spell, how far do we take it? If I use some sort of magic to create an axe and hit a Magicless with the axe, does it wound? If not, what's the difference between a magically created axe and a gout of magically created flame, where one wounds and the other doesn't?

What happens when you use Wall of Stone to entrap a Magicless, or create an earthquake at its feet? What happens if you craft a storm to sink a ship the Magicless is traveling on, or magically collapse a cave ceiling as a Magicless and his companions are traveling underneath? How does a Magicless fare when traveling with non-immune companions in a place littered with magic traps?

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you know it's possible to vaguely define my outline
when dust move in the sunshine

Poseptune

A version of a magicless ranger(without an animal companion) and if other sources are available the Swashbuckler, possibly the Knight.

As for the healing. I could just modify the healing skill or make an herbal healing skill that will allow more HP to be gained. Or even a race specific healer class that can heal so many times per day like similar to the cure wound tree of spells.
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 Markas Dalton

Poseptune

LC you just said all of my fears and more. I was in the process of figuring out how different spells would effect them or not effect them. Unfortunately I don't have answers to these. The magicless would be able to see an invisible wizard, since it is a simple illusion. Walls of stone would work, because the manipulate the world around them. The magical fire is a little difficult. I probably would have it that the inital blast of magic (the direct hit would not hurt them), but if anything catches fire around them then they are very much in danger.

My plan for them in the world is a captive society. People of the world would fear them and long ago had them brought to one area that is now surrounded by large walls. Which they have turned into a nation. They are taught that the outside world is unlivable and the gates in the wall are heavily gaurded. Some have managed to escape. If found the escapees are put to death (I haven't fully decided upon this, because it would make the race very unplayable).
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 Markas Dalton

brainface

QuoteBeyond all of that, it forces you to draw some fairly arbitrary lines on the subject of magic. Consider Fireball-- are the Magicless immune to it or not?

At the heart of it, Fireball just creates a mass of fire. If the Magicless are immune, are the also immune to normal, nonmagical fire, and if not, what's the difference between that and the fire created by magic? If a mage uses magic to start a forest fire, does the nonmagically-sustained forest fire burn a Magicless?
I was wondering the same thing. It would depend on how the DM interprets psionic (same as magic or a completely different entity). I honestly don't know much about psionics and haven't decided whether it will be in this setting.[/quote]tremendous[/i] drawbacks of their ability by using psionic items, etc.

[edit: i never read the entire thread before commenting, yeah?]
QuoteLC you just said all of my fears and more. I was in the process of figuring out how different spells would effect them or not effect them. Unfortunately I don't have answers to these. The magicless would be able to see an invisible wizard, since it is a simple illusion. Walls of stone would work, because the manipulate the world around them. The magical fire is a little difficult. I probably would have it that the inital blast of magic (the direct hit would not hurt them), but if anything catches fire around them then they are very much in danger.
completely[/i] already answered by the SR:Yes/No line in spell descriptions. :)
You may want to give them additional abilities to see thru illusions, as you seem to like that theme? Give them something like "True Seeing (Ex)".
"The perfect is the enemy of the good." - Voltaire

Lmns Crn

Quote from: PoseidonMy plan for them in the world is a captive society. People of the world would fear them and long ago had them brought to one area that is now surrounded by large walls. Which they have turned into a nation. They are taught that the outside world is unlivable and the gates in the wall are heavily gaurded. Some have managed to escape. If found the escapees are put to death (I haven't fully decided upon this, because it would make the race very unplayable).
So, aside from the issues of mechanics and balancing this, you've illustrated one of the first things I tried to say (which I think came out a little mangled.)

With a race like this, it's very hard to use it without it becoming a very important idea of the setting. It forces its way to center stage of a setting, whether you wanted it to be a central issue or not.
I move quick: I'm gonna try my trick one last time--
you know it's possible to vaguely define my outline
when dust move in the sunshine

Poseptune

You know I didn't even think of magic immunity, hhhmmm that would solve a lot of problems with the race. The thing with this ability would they still trip alarm spells? The thing is that magic would no be able to see nor touch them. Illusion spells (in my mind) work by the spell sending fasle information to the subjects brain a successful save means the magic can't take hold. Because they magic can't "see" them it can't try to send the false information to their brains. They basically can't be targeted by magic, which would probably make them incredibly powerful. This would also be their downfall as well, since they can't be healed, buffed, fly across a river of lava or anything else magic can help them with.


As for psionics though I am back and forth on whether or not to bring psionics into my setting. They would be the perfect place to put it and because they would be so different from the rest of the people, people would fear them.
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 Markas Dalton

Ishmayl-Retired

I think the best way to do your plan would be to do it more like how Goodkind actually does it; instead of making them a separate race, just make them a separate culture that is cursed somehow (possibly with the spell immunity option brainface talked about).
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