Theme Wars!

Matt Larkin (author) · July 29, 2006, 04:54:00 PM

I think it is possible that those are the extremes, and that many world will fall somewhere in the middle. But that's just my experience in creating settings.

I would guess a Divset world is likely to have many Earth-like features in order to allow for as many settings and genres as players might expect.

Raelifin · July 30, 2006, 11:18:20 AM

Yes, and if anyone wants a better name than "Divset" they should suggest it.

I think that while they may be "extreme," there is a very important distinction of whether you intend to create art or a framework for art.

CYMRO · July 30, 2006, 12:08:09 PM

Quote from: RaelifinYes, and if anyone wants a better name than "Divset" they should suggest it.

I think that while they may be "extreme," there is a very important distinction of whether you intend to create art or a framework for art.

I thought the intention was to create an egaging and dynamic game environment for the players. I thought the art/framework was merely an analogy.

beejazz · July 30, 2006, 05:10:35 PM

Points aside, your analogies are apalling!

"Campaign Building as Art"
WRONG. No matter what art you compare it to, camaign building is unique. Visual artists aren't supposed to "say" anything. They are simply supposed to create aesthetically pleasing works of art... attributing a theme or a moral is something scholars do AFTER the fact... a literary critique of a visual medium. The subject matter doesn't just fall into the artist's lap, mind you... an artist has biases and preferrences based on his or her experience and opinions... that is the business of the ARTIST and not the ART.

On to literature... literature takes time and meaning into account, but in ways campaign building does NOT. A campaign must take into account not only the secrets to be revealed about the world as part of the general plot resolution, but the posible changes the world might undergo as the results of a character's actions.

I'm going to skip drama (a small facet of the DM's job... which the campaign builder may facilitate at his/her liesure) and dance (likewise small scope...the PCs handling of roleplaying) and music (...) and just say that campaign building is closer to the preparations for a semi-improv comedy sketch (in that you have to take into account both premise and possibility) and cooking (in that it is a mix between a science and and art... and you need to allow some room for guests at your table to do as they will, be it salting their food or mixing their peas and potatoes).

That said, there are four pillars of campaign design, each with its oposite, which you must keep balanced. These are meat and spice (your content and theme, respectively) and method and madness (your premise and possibility, respectively). They are all well and good individually, but one must take ALL into account for a campaign setting that is to house a good campaign... sometimes we forget that that's what a campaign setting is for. PLAYING. If you can't play in it and have fun, who the hell cares if it's consistent or thematic or how you built it, right?

Or am I just rambling?

Epic Meepo · July 31, 2006, 03:23:41 AM

Quote from: RaelifinYes, and if anyone wants a better name than "Divset" they should suggest it.

That, and Ethnocentric has a rather negative connotation. I'd have called your two approaches Signal and Ground, respectively.

Of course, that may well be a lack of sleep talking.

And speaking of a lack of sleep talking... THEME WARS: The Campaign Setting!

Raelifin · July 31, 2006, 12:47:31 PM

Warning: I was too lazy to proof-read this post. I may contain ramblings and/or rants. :soap:

-----------------------------------------------------

@Meepo: Heh, I was wondering how long it would take for someone to add an "n" to Ethocentric. X-) Signal and Ground might actually be better names, but I wanted to produce something that is easily identified out of context.

Nice setting btw. It gave me a chuckle.

@CYMRO: No, sorry. I was actually talking about art. I'll get to that in a sec.

@Beejazz:

Quote from: beejazzOn to literature... literature takes time and meaning into account, but in ways campaign building does NOT. A campaign must take into account not only the secrets to be revealed about the world as part of the general plot resolution, but the posible changes the world might undergo as the results of a character's actions.

I'm going to skip drama (a small facet of the DM's job... which the campaign builder may facilitate at his/her liesure) and dance (likewise small scope...the PCs handling of roleplaying) and music (...) and just say that campaign building is closer to the preparations for a semi-improv comedy sketch (in that you have to take into account both premise and possibility) and cooking (in that it is a mix between a science and and art... and you need to allow some room for guests at your table to do as they will, be it salting their food or mixing their peas and potatoes).

That said, there are four pillars of campaign design, each with its oposite, which you must keep balanced. These are meat and spice (your content and theme, respectively) and method and madness (your premise and possibility, respectively). They are all well and good individually, but one must take ALL into account for a campaign setting that is to house a good campaign... sometimes we forget that that's what a campaign setting is for. PLAYING. If you can't play in it and have fun, who the hell cares if it's consistent or thematic or how you built it, right?

I said it before, bit IÃ¢,¬,,¢ll say it again. I am not talking about a campaign; I am talking about a setting or world (depending on whom you ask.) A campaign is an entirely different beast, which can also be art, but is beside the point.

Epic Meepo · July 31, 2006, 02:51:42 PM

Quote from: RaelifinAll art begins with inspiration.
The inspiration produces vision. The artist gains an insight, whether small or large, into what they want to create.
All art is creative. The artist will create something, even if it is non-physical like a song.

Now lets lay down some Ã¢,¬Å"facts.Ã¢,¬Â

...

I agree whole-heartedly with your current refutation of the bold claims made earlier (holmgang, halmgang, holmgang!), but I also happen to think that you are defining art too broadly. Art is more than just a creative process that produces something that fits the creator's vision. Only works that are specifically meant to convey an emotion or meaning constitute "art." It is possible to create something that is entirely functional instead of evocative or symbolic, in which case the product should not be considered a work of art.

Happily for the two of us, in this case, my objection actually supports your current argument. I would content:

1) Not only does art have a theme beyond that ascribed to it by outside observers, but
2) The intent to evoke a theme is a prerequisite for counting a mere creative effort as "art."

A painting, song, story, campaign setting, or anything else produced by its creator for a purpose other than the conveyance of a theme (either a literal message or some amount of abstract emotional content) is not art. Thus, the "Divset" or Ground approach to campaign design can create a framework for art without itself being art.

(Incidentally, we need a "Holmgang!" smiley.)

CYMRO · July 31, 2006, 03:18:31 PM

QuoteI believe a session of role-playing can be art, it just is less likely to have inspiration, given itÃ¢,¬,,¢s ad-lib nature.
I think IÃ¢,¬,,¢ll head-off your first counter-point Ã¢,¬Å"But art can exist without the artist having vision! Art is defined by the eye of the beholder, not the mind of the creator.Ã¢,¬Â

Playing a game is not Art, it is Leisure. While some fiddly bits of art go into setting up an role-playing game(the writing, the drawing of maps and pix, etc.) playing the game ain't art. Any more than playing chess is art, though some artistry went into the carving of the pieces and the making of the board.

I look at my own role of DM/world creator as a Leisure activity, because I do it for fun and to facilitate fun for others.

insert :HOLMGANG: smiley

Epic Meepo · July 31, 2006, 04:04:21 PM

Quote from: RaelifinA Divset world is one built to be a plausible environment or a backdrop to other fictional works. Divset worlds are intended to provide options and possibility, without forcing it on others.

Process:
*Heck if I know! I never build Divset worlds. Help me out here and give me your feedback on how you make your Divset worlds.

Creating a plausible background that can accomodate any number of themes is less like creating art and more like setting up an art studio. You have to decide what tools (campaign elements) you want to be available to the artists (players) without indicating how those tools are supposed to be used.

For example: when choosing what game mechanics to apply to your setting, use those rules that you believe would be easiest and/or the most fun to use. Show preference to game systems that are versatile instead of those that best represent particular genres, and err on the side of including character options instead of restricting them for flavor purposes.

The approach is less obvious - but still valid - when designing elements that are rule-independent. In this case, you consider what environments and populations you think GMs would best be able to use in any of various adventures. Be vague about the relationships between various elements; imply plots that might take place without actually initiating those plots.

For example, don't say, "the hordes of Nation A have joined the legions of Nation B on the battlefield." Instead say that "violence has errupted between Nation A and Nation B" or "Nation A currently occupies parts of Nation B." Notice that neither of the second options requires countries or NPCs to take specific actions or use specific tactics. Depending upon the genre your players prefer, Nation A might have obliterated part of Nation B with dangerus spells of mass destruction, invaded Nation B with a disciplined military force, or secretly unleashed a shadowy plague of nightmare creatures upon the countryside in order to subdue parts of Nation B.

As another example, compare "a dark realm where helpless peasants huddle in fear and despair as horrid undead prowl the night" to "a dark realm where undead prowl the night." The second description, while not as evocative of a specific feel (in this case horror), is much more versatile. With that description, rooted more in plain fact than in gripping imagery, you could run a horror campaign where peasants huddle in fear, you could run a military campaign where the forces of the king valaintly hold off hordes of marauding undead, or you could run a superhero campaign where a league of heroes contends with a host of recurring undead foes.

Essentially, choose game mechanics and design an environment strictly to facilitate the largest spectrum of adventures of types that you like to play. Then develop factual descriptions of people and places that could function in tandem with any of several themes. Be vague. Imply things that might exist, but do not make them prerequisites for the proper use of your setting. Create conflicts, but do not state if or how they will play out. Have different factions that accept different descriptions of reality, creating a menu of possible truths for a DM to choose from.

Worlds created in this manner are distinguished not by unique themes, but by unique and inventive combinations of elements that a DM can use to achieve a particular purpose. When done correctly, these worlds are not evocative in the way that art is evocative, but elegant in the way a scientific theory is elegant.

Or, if you prefer, worlds without themes are like message boards, each of which comes with its own combination of members and available tools. Certain combinations of these elements prove more enjoyable than others, meaning that one message board is not necessarily a dry copy of another just because the two each contain posts, threads, and forums organized in a similar way.

Lmns Crn · August 02, 2006, 09:03:54 AM

I'll post something here later, but I feel I need to comment on just how facsinating this discussion is. You guys-- on all sides and viewpoints of this issue-- are simply amazing.

And we definitely need a :holmgang: smiley.

Raelifin · August 02, 2006, 09:58:50 AM

@Epic Meepo:
You're right. Art is communication via creation. Thanks for the correction.

Thanks for your insight on Divset worlds. IÃ¢,¬,,¢m beginning to think that Divset doesnÃ¢,¬,,¢t have a real Ã¢,¬Å"processÃ¢,¬Â to follow, as you can start anywhere.

@LC:
Modern holmgang! :rgun: :sniper:

@CYMRO:
Yes, I agree with you there. With MeepoÃ¢,¬,,¢s insight, I see that a play is only art if someone is approaching it as an artist. After all, with art being defined by the artist, and art requiring communication, it is impossible to make art when you arenÃ¢,¬,,¢t trying. So yes, gaming is leisure until someone steps up and tries to make it art. I think either way is great, with the system being more set up for leisure.

Endless_Helix · August 02, 2006, 10:40:04 AM

Basically Div-set worlds are throwing the PC's in a library full of books with no titles, or titles in an unknown language would be a better analogy. They have to rely more on guesswork than what they know, but eventually they figure out most of the words and know how to pick the books they want to read.

Ethocentric worlds are more like putting the PC's in the same library, but this time with a dictionary for the language. They have the immediate ability to function in the world but will be extremely confined in the actions they will attempt.

I find Ethocentric worlds tend to survive longer as a sand box. But the Div-set worlds tend to be more controlled by the DM, particularly with inexperienced players.

CYMRO · August 02, 2006, 03:34:19 PM

Quote from: Endless_HelixI find Ethocentric worlds tend to survive longer as a sand box. But the Div-set worlds tend to be more controlled by the DM, particularly with inexperienced players.

Actually with Div-set, the opposite is true. The DM has many paths prepared, the party choses the path. depending on which stimulus they react to.

QuoteBasically Div-set worlds are throwing the PC's in a library full of books with no titles, or titles in an unknown language would be a better analogy. They have to rely more on guesswork than what they know, but eventually they figure out most of the words and know how to pick the books they want to read.

Not really. The players know quite alot of factual information, it is just up to them which "thematic" section they sample, and when. It is also up to them when to look at a different book.

A better analogy would be that Div-set is like a library, where the party can pick or choose from any volume, clsoing said book at any time, and reaching for another. Ethocentric is like being handed one volume and told that that is all there is.

Raelifin · August 02, 2006, 07:58:59 PM

I agree with CYMRO. Though his analogy is a bit annoying. :P

Epic Meepo · August 03, 2006, 01:16:34 AM

Quote from: Endless_HelixI find Ethocentric worlds tend to survive longer as a sand box. But the Div-set worlds tend to be more controlled by the DM, particularly with inexperienced players.

Actually with Div-set... [t]he DM has many paths prepared, the party choses the path. depending on which stimulus they react to.[/quote]
I'm not so sure that a DivSet world guarantees DM preparation; instead, a DivSet world allows any given DM to easily turn the DivSet framework into an Ethocentric world of his own choosing. It is certainly possible that a given DM's interpretation of a particular DivSet world could constitute a very narrow Ethocentric world that rules out quite a few paths.

The Campaign Builder's Guild

News:

Theme Wars!

Matt Larkin (author)

Raelifin

CYMRO

beejazz

Epic Meepo

Raelifin

Epic Meepo

CYMRO

Epic Meepo

Lmns Crn

Raelifin

Endless_Helix

CYMRO

Raelifin

Epic Meepo