The Sahuagin Question

Tybalt · August 05, 2006, 03:41:35 AM

The start off to my campaign is the old U series, from Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh on, adapted to my campaign. The thing is, the really villains in that adventure series are the Sahuagin. However, I'm not satisified with 'they're really really evil', and also I've had immense trouble tracking down a copy of "The Final Enemy". So I'm kind of working out my own situation. What I'd like to know is if anyone has any ideas they'd like to share about the Sahuagin.

Wensleydale · August 05, 2006, 08:31:19 AM

So you want some culture, adventure ideas about the Sahaguin? Or what?

SilvercatMoonpaw · August 05, 2006, 09:22:45 AM

Give them a logical motivation for why they do what they do. Too often people resort to the whole "followers of an evil god or just plane greedy" type of motivation. I don't know exaclty what the situaiton is in this series, so I cna't really propose any more.

DeeL · August 05, 2006, 01:45:18 PM

Note that just because a motivation is logical doens't mean it has to be a human motivation. Consider the motive behind an attempt to raise an army of water elementals to break a dam and drown the town - more territory, with loads of construction in place, and a load of ripening corpses for food or other uses...

Velox · August 05, 2006, 03:39:18 PM

If you are interested in the Sahuagin, you could look for the book "The Sea Devils".

Sahuagin have an aggresive and extremely conformist society. Any Sahuagin that are found to be "different" in any way are killed, so almost every sahuagin has the same views. They beleive that they are the greatest mortal race in the history of creation, and that their survival depends on the annihilation of anything not Sahuagin. They view the surface world as some strange hellish alien world, filled with mutant barbarians.The sea is a land of plenty, and can always provide for them.

Their code of laws, as per "Sea Devils": Self-sufficieny and obedience are the greatest qualities, There's a place for everyone and everyone should remain in his place, Success equals virtue, Only the inadequate fail, Meat is meat, Truth is what sahuagin remember.

They could become the main agressors in a campaign if they were especially motivated to defend themselves. If mankind is destroying the sea, threatening them, they would certainly begin open war. Maybe they are dying of a terrible disease, or their food supply is running out, thus forcing them to do something drastic (and rather stupid), like begin an ernest effort to destory mankind. Catastrophe and chaos will motivate people to do stupid violent things. Maybe they think if they kill the humans it will appease their god and improve their quality of life. Maybe something on land can provide a cure for their condition, but mankind gaurds it jealously. It's not at all far-fetched to say they simply blame mankind for all their woes and it's now time to destory them. In the past people have made ridiculous blanket-statements like that and entire countries have gone along.

SDragon · August 05, 2006, 08:57:30 PM

Quote from: Velox121*snip*
It's not at all far-fetched to say they simply blame mankind for all their woes and it's now time to destory them. In the past people have made ridiculous blanket-statements like that and entire countries have gone along.

not that far into the past, either; communism was, for the longest time, the cause of all of americas problems (despite the fact that america wasnt a communist nation), shortly before that, the jewish were the cause of all aryan woes not too long before that, sea-reliant northerners were the root of all problems with slave-reliant southeners.....

CYMRO · August 05, 2006, 09:05:50 PM

The Sahuagin are one of my player races in Altvogge, and I prefer for them to default to TN.
The piratical nature of the Sahuagin nation is due more to geographical necessity than to just basic evil nature. When your national waters lack the advantages of other aquatic nations, and you feel hemmed in by the "dryfeet", an aggressive national policy is the only hope for racial and national survival...

the_taken · August 06, 2006, 12:15:04 AM

I personaly agree with K's vison of the Sahuagin. He's currently writting a handbook to be posted on the WotC forumns. This is an excerpt he posted. I mentioned that many DMs would benefit from his anylisese of D&D rules and their mess ups. He's not made a single reply.

QuoteRaces of War Excerpt:

Borderlands of the Sahuagin: Sore Winners

The first thing to understand about the Sahuagin is that they have already won. Completely. The surface of the world is about Ã,Â¾ ocean and they own almost all of it. From the standpoint of the Sahuagin, the only places on the planet that have non-Sahuagin races in them are the stale crusts that they already had the presence of mind to cut off their sandwich. All of the non-Sahuagin races are all ghettoized. Even the other aquatic races have been marginalized to the point where they only get the brackish water (Locathah), the rocky shallows (merfolk), the underground darks (Kuo-Toans), or the muddy salt marshes (Lizardfolk). The real real estate Ã¢,¬' the ocean and coastline Ã¢,¬' are pretty much the private playground of the Sahuagin.

Individually, Sahuagin will kick your ass, and collectively they will kick the ass of any nation you happen to support. The combined populations of all other sapient races on any planet are less than the population of Sahuagin on that planet. The Sahuagin are also much smarter and better organized than you are so their cities are actually more productive than yours per person in addition to the fact that they have more cities than all the other races and their cities are more populous.

The Sahuagin mutate constantly, but are not inclined to Chaos. They just all have different appearances and capabilities. But every one of them is gifted with super intelligence and thick natural armor. The Sahuagin deep seers are some of the most gifted wizards on the planet and honestly have nothing better to do than just scry on crap and tell the armies where there's some cool stuff to go loot. From time to time the Sahuagin will come onto land to beat the living crap out of people and take control of important or valuable items. Then they take the spoils of war and drag it back under water, laughing the whole time.

Against this backdrop of crushing inferiority, how do the other races maintain? Most of them are fighting for stakes so small that they haven't even noticed that the vast majority of the planet is owned and operated by brutally efficient fish men. But one race that certainly has noticed the power discrepancy is the race of elves most likely to be forgotten: the Sea Elves. They actually live in many of the same areas and have a war going with them.

Life is hard for a Sea Elf, because every one of them is born into a post-apocalyptic world where mutants run amok and hunt them for sport. But it's actually even worse than that because in addition to simply being physically and intellectually inferior to the Sahuagin like everyone else is Ã¢,¬' they are actually stupid and useless even contrasted with the surface races. An average Sea Elf is as much the intellectual inferior to a Sahuagin as a Griffin is to a normal human. The Sahuagin consider the Sea Elves to be little more than animals, and they aren't wrong.

The Sea Elves keep surviving at all because they see farther than Sahuagin in low-light conditions (and are thus often able to swim away from potential encounters with Sahuagin during the morning and twilight hours that Sea Elves leave their hidden nests), and also because every so often a Sahuagin gets born who looks exactly like a Sea Elf. These Sahuagin mutants, called Malenti, are a little bit worse than a normal Sahuagin in that they lack the rending claws. But they're still stronger and smarter than any Sea Elf that ever swam the 7 seas. So when these Malenti realize that they get a crap deal from Sahuagin society, they often as not run off to join the Sea Elves, where they almost immediately rise to positions of leadership. They also gain crap loads of experience very quickly because the odds are so stacked against them. In short, the reason that the Sea Elves still exist is that they actually are a splinter faction of Sahuagin that uses real sea elves as beasts of burden instead of simply hunting them like the more normal Sahuagin groups do.

And yet, despite the fact that the Sahuagin have won at everything, they still continue to fight the other races and take their children and stuff. Partly this is to feed the insatiable demands of their Baatezu masters, and partly this is because on some deep level the Sahuagin are convinced that it actually couldn't possibly be that easy. In addition to looking for bling and candy to take from the weaker races, the Deep Seers are also combing the world for the one thing that the Great Mothers are pretty sure exists somewhere: the hidden army that the other races are putting together to take the world back from the clutches of the Sahugin Empire. As far as anyone knows, it doesn't exist, but for some reason the Great Mothers keep insisting that the searching continue. Maybe they know something we don't?

I like the fact that he wrote 'bling and candy' to describe treasue and people. :D

Tybalt · August 06, 2006, 10:17:34 AM

Wow, quite a lot of stuff in that last post in particular...I quite like that idea of their viewpoint.

To give a bit of an example, I've changed things in "Sinister Secret of Saltmarsh" a bit, basically having the smugglers trading weapons for a rare narcotic spice that only grows in the Great Swamp in my campaign. It is sold in richer and more exotic lands than New Edom and then ironically sometimes comes back as an unbelievable luxury of great expense in its purified and refined form. the Lizard Folk harvest it but while primitive are not stupid enough to just give away what the smugglers want and so keep the sources of the spice a secret.

To the east of the nation of New Edom is the Goblin Confederacy, just across the river (though it is a vast river, about the size of the Mississippi) but also both areas are bordered by the swamp to the north.

So I'm not sure...perhaps what I want is simply for the land dwellers IF they are resourceful enough to figure out the real sinister secret of Saltmarsh to help the lizard folk vs. the Sahuagin but then gain them in turn as allies against the goblins, and further in future as trading partners in a more open trade of the spice?

Furthermore, I need to figure out if the Sahuagin would, as said above, become ongoing villains in my game. If they did...I'm wondering if that would entirely change my plans for the campaign. I had planned New Edom as a small rather new country that doesn't even have a respectable navy yet. But if they aligned with aquatic creatures that would give a whole new perspective possibly to things.

the_taken · August 06, 2006, 11:31:16 AM

Aligning with aquatic creatures is tricky stuff. The sahuagin are the big fish of the ocean, and unfortunetly, the evil fish too. Actualy being a sahuagin ally is like being a viking's dog. They keep you around to do tricks and help them hunt, and you make a decent guard. You're also last on the menu, but still on the menu.
If you side with the sea elves, you've been cheated. The odds are stacked agains you, and the sheer fact that there are so many sahuagin means that you're going to have to contend with some epic level encounters, both from massive armies to super sahuagins.
You have to choose between being in the devil's path, at his side, or off in the woods that he doesn't care about.

Tybalt · August 07, 2006, 09:43:39 AM

Well I appreciate the point of view but here is another question: do Sahuagin have to conform entirely to the idea of the vast undersea empire? For instance they are available as a player race in Altavogge. One of the things I like about this forum is that there are gms who have an entirely new slant on how things work. So for instance the idea behind the "U" series of modules was that the adventurers at least briefly can align with the Lizardfolk, Locathah, Merefolk and Sea Elves.

I'm exploring the possibility of locating U-3 (The Final Enemy) by some means but barring that I had an idea called "Devil's Atoll" which is in an archipelago of small rock islands that barely support more than sea lions and birds. Sharks abound in the area, and it is known to be treacherous and dangerous. More than one ship has been sunk in that area, particularly in rough weather, and it is marked on maps as a place to be avoided even by nations more nautical than New Edom. However it could also be a secret departure point for Sahuagin raiders.

One motivation I was thinking of was something similar to the "Predator" film series, in which this is a formidable incursion from the point of view of others but actually a testing ground for young warriors from the point of view of the Sahuagin. This might explain why there would be air pockets in the atoll system, and why they are 'invading'; it is not really an invasion in the minds of the Sahuagin but a convenient means of having their young prove themselves before actually competing against Sahuagin. Therefore, if they are driven away it would possibly be an inconvenience but the sea is vast...

the_taken · August 08, 2006, 12:52:44 AM

Quote from: TybaltWell I appreciate the point of view but here is another question: do Sahuagin have to conform entirely to the idea of the vast undersea empire?

I think based his description off the entirely vague notes given in MM and the actual stats. Seriously! Look at the stats and read the descriptions.

QuoteFor instance they are available as a player race in Altavogge. One of the things I like about this forum is that there are gms who have an entirely new slant on how things work. So for instance the idea behind the "U" series of modules was that the adventurers at least briefly can align with the Lizardfolk, Locathah, Merefolk and Sea Elves.

Fun times. Although I prefer to have my lizardfolk as angry tribal hunters that consider most mammals to be food.

QuoteI'm exploring the possibility of locating U-3 (The Final Enemy) by some means but barring that I had an idea called "Devil's Atoll" which is in an archipelago of small rock islands that barely support more than sea lions and birds. Sharks abound in the area, and it is known to be treacherous and dangerous. More than one ship has been sunk in that area, particularly in rough weather, and it is marked on maps as a place to be avoided even by nations more nautical than New Edom. However it could also be a secret departure point for Sahuagin raiders.

I think that's the standard when Sahuagin aren't the evil sea devil empire. Just a bunch of fish men that sink ships and eat sailors.

QuoteOne motivation I was thinking of was something similar to the "Predator" film series, in which this is a formidable incursion from the point of view of others but actually a testing ground for young warriors from the point of view of the Sahuagin. This might explain why there would be air pockets in the atoll system, and why they are 'invading'; it is not really an invasion in the minds of the Sahuagin but a convenient means of having their young prove themselves before actually competing against Sahuagin. Therefore, if they are driven away it would possibly be an inconvenience but the sea is vast...

Now that's a new one. Er.. sota.

Tybalt · August 08, 2006, 03:27:45 AM

I realize that the Sahuagin are so depicted in the MM, so I wasn't really trying to criticize anyone's advice or comments, on the contrary. What I'm after I guess is figuring out a creative way for the Sahuagin's existence not to be a huge big deal that distracts from the intended thrust of my campaign.

The Lizardfolk are seen as barely sentient primitives at this point in my game; when my players were talking to a sage before being given their military commissions they were shown a stuffed one for instance. However if they are canny they will learn that there is more to them than meets the eye, and discover that they might become possible allies. But this will require them to be very clever and resourceful through two adventures.

Ishmayl-Retired · August 08, 2006, 07:35:47 AM

The Slayer's Guide to Sahaguin is a pretty good resource for them. Not to mention, if you want to put some real time and energy into it, Mel Odom's "Threat From the Sea" series in the Forgotten Realms was easily one of the best D&D series ever written, and has many different sections that are from the sahaguins' points of view.

Epic Meepo · August 08, 2006, 01:55:22 PM

Quote from: IshmaylMel Odom's "Thread From the Sea" series in the Forgotten Realms was easily one of the best D&D series ever written...

I think "Thread from the Sea" is what you get when sahuagin hop on the computers in their undersea lairs and start writing posts. :-p

The Campaign Builder's Guild

News:

The Sahuagin Question

Tybalt

Wensleydale

SilvercatMoonpaw

DeeL

Velox

SDragon

CYMRO

the_taken

Tybalt

the_taken

Tybalt

the_taken

Tybalt

Ishmayl-Retired

Epic Meepo