Astrological Alignment

Ishmayl-Retired · August 11, 2006, 08:18:52 PM

Excellent first post snakefing. Can you explain more on the system you use?

Túrin · August 12, 2006, 09:44:06 AM

Did I mention that I did go through the trouble of removing alignment completely. It is a bit of a hassle, and some things do come up that can't be tackled in a straightforward manner right away. In many ways, I think Epic Meepo's system is preferable over my own more rigid solution, if only because it is far more elegant within the system of D&D rules as it stands. In this WotC thread you can see some of my considerations and decisions on this issue, and comments made to them by other people.

@ SilvercatMoonpaw: have you removed alignment completely? What were your solutions for the problems that occur?

@ snakefing: I'm also interested in your system?

Túrin

snakefing · August 12, 2006, 01:41:58 PM

Well, calling my concept a system is a little excessive. It's more like an approach to work within the existing system, while reducing the tendency of D&D to pigeonhole characters within one alignment or another. Lots of perfectly reasonable characters have different facets to their personality, and don't fit neatly into the categories.

My take is to separate out the game mechanical effects from the behavior/personality elements. That way, the player can be as creative as they want in their characterizations, without fear that the game mechanics will emphasize one aspect of their character over another.

Specifically, I take it that all the game mechanical effects (alignment magic, damage resistance, etc) refer to a "spiritual aura" which is determined, not by your behavior, but by a character's alignment with spiritual powers (generally speaking, deities and/or creatures from the Outer Planes). Normal creatures that are native to the Prime Material, by default, do not have such an alignment unless they somehow become specifically aligned with a spiritual power.

Normal characters don't even have an alignment (as far as game mechanics go) unless they specifically choose to align themselves with some Outer Power. This could happen, for example, if they make a pact with a demon, if they are in service to some god, etc. Characters like clerics and paladins, who gain their power from some external source, will usually have an alignment based on the god they serve. Druids, who serve nature, will probably be prohibited from having an alignment at all (you can't serve both nature and an Outer Power at the same time).

Apart from these cases, the behavior of the character does not impact on their alignment, unless their pact or service requires them to obey certain restrictions. Even in these cases, it comes down to the DM's judgment about whether or not the character's behavior falls within the scope of their agreement, and how much the deity cares, rather than whether their actions conform to a hypothetical Platonic ideal of their alignment. So this alignment system doesn't really affect characterization or character actions, except for those few characters who have chosen to align themselves for one reason or another. And those effects are more in-game than meta-game, which makes them easier to deal with. For most characters, there isn't even a need to write down an alignment. There simply isn't a need for it unless and until they do something that gives them an alignment aura that can be detected, protected against, etc.

A character's alignment can be more or less strong, based on the extent of their involvement with the Outer Powers. A weak alignment can be detected, but such a person might still be immune (or partially immune) to protection spells or other alignment-based effects.

Túrin · August 14, 2006, 12:47:13 PM

Doesn't this significantly weaken spells and abilities such as the holy/unholy weapon qualities that work on the basis of alignment? In other words, won't you be required to change mechanics in the end?

beejazz · August 14, 2006, 02:31:34 PM

Quote from: Natural 20I hate to differ with popular opinion here, but I must say that I do dislike this system(referring to OP). Although many people may adopt it, and most everyone seems enthusiastic about it, I just won't use it. Although the current D&D alignment system has issues, a lot of them can be prevented with a good DM, and a little bit of help from any of various articles found strewn over the internet.

I dislike how alignment is determined by fate, and this system is largely screaming to be a pain. Every PC would choose his own alignment anyway, making it match his moral views. And if the DM made peasants alignment Evil, the player's would kill on sight. I realize that the system could be explained, but old habits die hard. Even if the players began to understand how the system worked, this system would greatly reduce the effectiveness of such spells as detect evil or protection from evil as alignment has no bearing upon the behavior of it's recipients.

No offense to the OP, or anyone else here, but I do think this system is more trouble than it's worth, at least for me.

And if alignment by birth WAS effective wouldn't (for example) children be slaughtered if they were born in the "wrong month"? hardly seems fair.

Instead of having astrology determine something as drastic as "good vs. evil" why not consider other alignment axes?

Kierkegaardian: "aesthetic vs. ethical"

Jungian: "intravert vs. extravert" (for obscurity's sake, the terms "id" and "ego" may be more appropriate. as fewer people know what these words mean in common language, people will be more flexible with these words' meanings. after all, half the problem with law is that most people interpret it as meaning law)

Astrological: "earth vs. air" "fire vs. water"

Azn: "yin vs. yang" (okay, VAGUE. but vague has its advantages. also, I like the idea that opposed alignments could be complimentary)

As for alignment magic... I was never really a fan of that to begin with.

Túrin · August 14, 2006, 02:43:25 PM

Yummy. Any chance of you crunchifying any of those ideas?

beejazz · August 14, 2006, 02:55:35 PM

Who, me?
If you insist.
You see, a paladin's "law" is very diferrent from a monk's "law" right from the getgo. One is willing to enforce on others and outside himself (extravert, aka ego) where another is more self-absorbed (intravert, aka id). Hence a paladin under my system (Kierkegaardian Jungian) would be ethical egotistical without regard for what ethical means. He could be anything from a "chaotic evil" jihadist to a "lawful evil" fascist to your typical crusading knight so long as he really BELIEVEs in it. Alignment restrictions for a monk would simply consist of "any non-extravert (aka egotistical)" due to the self-centered or balance-centered nature of meditation. Bards would be either any non-id or any egotistical (depending on how strict you want to go). Or you may limit them to "any aesthetic" or "any unethical"... though that last just sounds a little off. Likewise for the barbarian... unethical.

Túrin · August 14, 2006, 03:27:06 PM

Sounds good. But isn't this just as limiting and restrictive as normal alignment, especially considering you want to limit class availability based on it? Also, how would you handle spells and effects based on alignment? As has already been pointed out for astrological alignment, protection from id sounds much less useful than protection from evil, and that's not even considering protection from aesthetics (a spell with such a name is sure to ruin serious gaming sessions wherever it goes ;)).

Túrin

Epic Meepo · August 14, 2006, 04:17:36 PM

Quote from: beejazzAnd if alignment by birth WAS effective wouldn't (for example) children be slaughtered if they were born in the "wrong month"? hardly seems fair.

1) It never happened that way in the Middle Ages, during which time certain eastern European cultures thought that children born on particular holidays were cursed.

2) Neither did large numbers of people go around slaughtering children who bore strange birthmarks that 'clearly' indicated that they were wicked beings (exception: this occasionally happened during certain inquisitions and witch hunts).

3) Neither did anyone in Asia or the ancient Middle East go about slaughtering children back in the day when the circumstances of a child's birth could indicate that the child was either a reincarnation of a powerful benevolent being or someone marked by the gods to fulfill a particular role.

4) Neither did anyone in the ancient Classical world when any number of assorted unwed mothers make the claim that their children were sired by the gods, presumably given said children supernatural powers that could potentially make them dangerous.

5) Neither does anyone in the New Age movement who believes that the forces of astrology and numerology determine certain aspects of a person's life, as determined by the date of their birth.

I designed the astrological alignment system with real-world folklore and superstition in mind. The fact that the date of one's birth does not have any real spiritual significance is, in many parts of the world, a fairly recent idea. Indeed, there are some cultures where date of birth still does have a bearing on one's spiritual make-up.

Aurix Svent · August 14, 2006, 06:01:58 PM

well dont get me wrong but i think stuff like this is cool butt i find it changes the game just a little too dirastically. I mean it might pose a problem to some paladin/ blackguard/ other classes that rely heavily on the opponents and thier alighnment. but thumbs up for thinking af such a cool idea keep up the good work

Aurix Svent · August 14, 2006, 06:07:43 PM

i agree that MOST of the time children did not get killed for stuff like the day they were born on but it did occasionally happen but most of the time the rest of the people treated them diffrent than others usually discriminating them in some way. But that is only in some cultures

snakefing · August 14, 2006, 07:31:38 PM

Quote from: TúrinDoesn't this significantly weaken spells and abilities such as the holy/unholy weapon qualities that work on the basis of alignment? In other words, won't you be required to change mechanics in the end?

To the first, it does weaken these spells and abilities. After all, there are just fewer creatures out there that those abilities can be used on. How much weaker depends on campaign details. If you play a heavily aligned campaign (where most of the major foes and allies are aligned with major churches, demons, or what have you) then they will retain much of their power; in a less aligned campaign, not so much.

To the second, no, you aren't required to change mechanics for this. Like EMeepo, I find that clerics don't lack for things to do, just because their Protection spells aren't as effective. (Furthermore, unlike EMeepo's campaign, in mine you'll often know it when you are going up against foes that are aligned, so you can use these abilities fairly effectively in those cases.) Items with alignment powers will be somewhat less valuable, and somewhat less common, depending again on campaign details. Minor adjustments like this are quite adequate most of the time.

Also, I personally feel that the mythical flavor of these abilities is better represented when they are only effective against truly supernatural evil (good, law, chaos), and not on just any J. Random Bad Dude. So that's mostly a thematic and flavor preference that I try to put into my campaigns.

The major exception is when someone wants to play a paladin or blaggard (or some of the other aligned classes) in a campaign which is not expected to be highly aligned. Many of their class abilities (Smite, Protection from Evil, etc.) are seriously weakened. (Aside: Clerics don't suffer from this as much. They can be roleplayed as part of their society, aligned or no - whereas the paladin's primary purpose in life is to Smite Evil.) To some extent this is just a bad fit between the character and the campaign. To some extent this is mitigated by the tendency of any campaign that includes characters like this to become more and more aligned as time goes by. In some cases, I'd be willing to consider giving the character an additional granted power or something from one of his god's domains to make up for the relative weakness of their abilities.

beejazz · August 14, 2006, 08:56:25 PM

Quote from: TúrinSounds good. But isn't this just as limiting and restrictive as normal alignment, especially considering you want to limit class availability based on it? Also, how would you handle spells and effects based on alignment? As has already been pointed out for astrological alignment, protection from id sounds much less useful than protection from evil, and that's not even considering protection from aesthetics (a spell with such a name is sure to ruin serious gaming sessions wherever it goes ;)).

Túrin

Well... no to the first question in that "ethics" "aesthetics" "id" and "ego" are a hell of alot more flexible and a hell of alot more sensible. I mean, there are violent people and fascists and communists and racists all over the place, but who the hell wakes up in the morning and thinks "I'm gonna go out there and do some evil!"?

To the second question, I've never been a big fan of alignment magic. Class features that detect evil could instead detect thoughts, magic, undead, or hostile intent. Smiting might be indiscriminate. G2G... outsiders later.

Túrin · August 15, 2006, 06:45:56 AM

That works, but then you have effectively ditched alignment. ThereÃ,Â´s really no need to replace it with anything then.

beejazz · August 15, 2006, 02:11:57 PM

Quote from: TúrinThat works, but then you have effectively ditched alignment. ThereÃ,Â´s really no need to replace it with anything then.

That really depends... thing is that absence of alignment based magic does not put an end to the necessity and use of an alignment system. Besides, I've got an excuse to have Paladins and a new way to define their thinking which opens up new worldviews and keeps the silly ones (like a hedonist paladin) firmly closed. Restrictions are, after all, occasionally necessary.

The Campaign Builder's Guild

News:

Astrological Alignment

Ishmayl-Retired

Túrin

snakefing

Túrin

beejazz

Túrin

beejazz

Túrin

Epic Meepo

Aurix Svent

Aurix Svent

snakefing

beejazz

Túrin

beejazz