The Campaign Builder's Guild

QuotePsionics are a tricky beast in D&D. Always have been.

This struck me as silly.
The grappling rules in D&D are harder to follow than 3.5 psionics.
And the psionics power point system was the inspiration for my resource point system in Altvogge.
All one has to do to integrate psionics is to integrate it.

QuoteThe grappling rules in D&D are harder to follow than 3.5 psionics.

dude, i second you there ;)

I don't mean "tolkienoid" by traditional, though I do feel he exemplifies "Traditional" fantasy.

I guess my definition involves being set in a world similar to our own (most often in an ancient day) and being grounded in legends and 'traditional' stories of 'fey'.  Moorecock isn't that.  How are you defining "traditional"?  Based merely on his being older than you? ;)

As far as grappling, I think we can all agree that a lot of the 'advanced' combat options in 3.x are harder than psionics could ever be.

Quote from: Kalos MerI don't mean "tolkienoid" by traditional, though I do feel he exemplifies "Traditional" fantasy. I guess my definition involves being set in a world similar to our own (most often in an ancient day) and being grounded in legends and 'traditional' stories of 'fey'. Moorecock isn't that. How are you defining "traditional"? Based merely on his being older than you? ;) As far as grappling, I think we can all agree that a lot of the 'advanced' combat options in 3.x are harder than psionics could ever be.

By your own definition, Moorcock is "traditional"!Ã,  Corum is based on Cornish fey legends, Von Beck is grounded in Christian European legends, Elric is fey. Etcetera....

I suppose you have a point.  I'll have to reconsider my definition.

Though Elric struck me as too much of a moody anti-hero to be traditional fey.  Antiheros bother the hell out of me in D&D.

I am very sorry to here that anti heroes really bother you. Conversely I think traditional Lancalot inspired heroes are very boring.

You do know that Gygax and Arneson drew heavily upon Moorcock's work when they first conceived of D&D right?

Quote from: Kalos MerI suppose you have a point. I'll have to reconsider my definition. Though Elric struck me as too much of a moody anti-hero to be traditional fey. Antiheros bother the hell out of me in D&D.

Well, the Melniboneans are fey, and while it is true Elric is quite the anti-hero, Elric novels are a just a part of the cycle of the Eternal Champion.Ã, 

EDIT:Ã,  the smileys situation sucks!!!!!

Yes, I know that Gygax and Arneson drew on Moorcock etc.  

Look, I'm not arguing that he was not a highly influential writer.  I'm even coming around to calling him 'traditional' under the definition previously established.  If you recall what started this tangent, all I'm really trying to say is that something like this:

cannot be said to merge well with the traditional pseudo-medieval D&D that many gamers are comfortable with, and this explains the reaction which some people have to psionics as being alien to D&D.

Further, I'm trying to assert that the 'alien' feel engendered by artwork like that is not somehting intrinsic to the psionics system, and those of us who (like me) are very traditional pseudo-medievalists could with little difficulty strip away these elements and have a working system.

Well, there is no denying some of the artwork is alien and not what I would have chosen if they had only asked me for my opinion.

On the other subject, I think Lancelot is actually a very good example of the kind of hero which I find LEAST boring.  Flawed, but not Anti-Heroic.

Seriously, what happened to morality being cool?

Quote from: Kalos MerOn the other subject, I think Lancelot is actually a very good example of the kind of hero which I find LEAST boring.  Flawed, but not Anti-Heroic.

Seriously, what happened to morality being cool?

Morality is cool, but the Lancelot stereotype is usually an amoral holier-than-thou prig.


I prefer flawed yet heroic characters like Ulric Von Bek(The Warhound and the World's Pain), a man who undertakes the quest  for the Holy Grail for Satan not because he feels he is "more humble than thou art," but because he must.

Or Tarzan.  Tarzan is moral and ethical.

Or Sam Vimes, who is moral and ethical because he fears his personal demons will overtake him if he ever puts a toe over the line.

Even Elric over his entire series struggles to do the "right" thing, though he must come to grips with the fact that "right" means different things for Melniboneans and humans.

Of course, Aragorn, having all the qualities of a noble horse(as one critic said decades ago), is quite a likeable moral hero.



King Arthur? :hammer:

A very senstible rebutal Cymro, I couldn't haven't said it better myself. The self-righteous stick in my craw like nobody's business. Give me a Han Solo, or a Dread Pirate Roberts, or an Elric any day, and I'll be pleased as pie. I want my heroes to seem human in emotion and personal creed, but heroic in deed and action.

Aragorn though not my favorite fictional character, is certainly a memorable and heroic individual that doesn't adhere to the stereotypical knight in shining armor. He felt very much human to me. Particulaly his reluctance to claim the throne and his love-life. He seemed far more noble in my eyes than Lancalot, who at times seemed down right devious and almost alien.

One of my favorite PCs ever, was a paladin with low self-esteem who always doubted himself, his devotion to his faith, and worth as a hero. He felt as though no matter how hard he tried, he wasn't ever going to meet his own self imposed standards of heroism.

My paladin was humble and shy, and though throughout his career he was lavished with praise, he always felt as though somebody else deserved the credit more than he.

To this day he was perhaps my most beloved character, because he was flawed, and he knew it. A flawed character who glosses over their own imperfections (like Lancalot) is boderline unlikable.

-Peace-

Aragorn?  Reluctant to claim the throne?  Huh?

Anyway, you may not 'like' Lancelot, but one can hardly fail to admit that he is quite *real*.  I think we were arguing different issues - I thought you disliked him because he was a bad (ie, unreal) character, not because he was an inherently unlikeable person.

Quote from: Kalos MerAragorn?  Reluctant to claim the throne?  Huh?

Anyway, you may not 'like' Lancelot, but one can hardly fail to admit that he is quite *real*.  I think we were arguing different issues - I thought you disliked him because he was a bad (ie, unreal) character, not because he was an inherently unlikeable person.

Yes Aragorn...strider the ranger who sought to live among the elves and the wilds, rather than to accept his destiny as king. Sure he did by the end of TLotR trilogy, but he avoided it his whole life.

Yes Lancalot was an inherently unlikeable character. He was supposedly soo pure, but um he was sleeping with his best friends wife. He failed to live up to his own reputation, and yet he faked it well enough so that people didn't suspect him. How can anyone respect a guy like that?

Human(ish)...sure we all make mistakes, but heroes don't lie about them. *Real* well I don't know about that. He wasn't even human. His mother was the lady of the lake (some sort of druidic spirit thing) so what was Lancalot? He didn't react to situations in a believable or consistent manner. Sometimes he was a shining pillar of virtue, and other times he was devious and underhanded. There was no believable rationale to his behavior. Any one so self-righteous had better be sure of their own convictions before they preach them.

Ghalihad was the real hero. Much more human, and much more consistent. He made mistakes, but they weren't directly contrary to his previously established character.

Mordred has always been my favorite.  You gotta love a guy who overcomes some serious early handicaps, like a father attempting infanticide.  Then, when he grows up he confronts said child murdering king, demanding justice and gets rebuked.  And what does he do?  He takes down the whole facade!

QuoteAragorn? Reluctant to claim the throne? Huh?

Well, he did refuse the crown of Gondor when Ecthelion offered it to him.  Lazy, shiftless wanderer.... :horse: