The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: Cancerous CheAren't there a hundred of these already out there, though?  Even I have one up on the wiki...

M.

maybe everyone has a soft spot for these settings?

also...

Dwarves-The basic dwarf archetype - clan-based, undergroundy, gruff, likes shiny things - lends itself well to conflicts that D&D ignores by stating that Dwarves are "lawful" or "good", much the way they get around elves (actually, almost how they treat all non-human races). Without their tangible, beneficent deities or a "good" cultural zeitgeist, Dwarves would seem to be very susceptible to clan-to-clan infighting, vengeance, and greed. Civil war could have been the downfall of the Dwarves, scattering any remaining clans far across the world. They dwell in their deep mountain citadels, scheming of ways to increase their wealth and enact retribution for insults 1,000 years old.

While D&D isn't a system I always agree with, it is the system I have most experience with (as do most) and I still play,  so here are my 5 cents:
You say you want a D&D setting, so we have to be careful how much we change it. Too much and you'll have changed the system to fit the setting rather than the other way around. While this is often favorable, it's not really what you want in this situation. You don't want it to lose its D&D-ness as Llum pointed out.  E.g. if you replaced Vancian magic with something totally different it wouldn't really by "D&D" in the strictest sense of the word.

On the other hand, there are many things we can manipulate. To return to the aforementioned wizards, there are a lot of nice holes you can fill with fluff: how they cast their spells and how magic works (the somatic component might in fact be a wild dance, the swallowing of inscribed stones,  or the manipulation of alien relics), how magic is learnt (you have to have "The Spark", you can only cast magic if you have sold your soul), how they interact with others (magic is heresy, church-authorized, only from one country, only weather mages in farming communities), and how it looks (all spells might have black/white visual effects, spells look different from casting to casting, spells give onlookers a brief flash of a dream image).

Items can also be used to good effect when it comes to magic, as seen in Steerpike's Cadaverous Earth. He uses what are basically Vancian mages, but spices them up with the Nectar; an addictive magic-boosting substance which adds a certain risk-benefit consideration into the casting of spells. This could easily be any of a variety of other arcane devices. CE is also an example of a setting using wild names to flavor the spellcasting.

Of course, fixing only the spellcasting won't do much good if all you want to do is make a low magic setting. I don't really think this plays to the (potential) strengths of D&D, but well, different tastes and all that. As Steerpike mentioned previously (although he gave the low magic approach some credit too), D&D often comes into its own when you play to its flamboyant and cinematic side. Also, can't see why Gandalf would be such a role model for the wizarding community. Admitted, I have only seen the movies and read the books (including the Hobbit) , but he hardly ever uses magic (even though it doesn't seem like it poses much of a danger to him) and really, there is such a thing as making your magic too vague.          

Racewise, I understand your dislike of elves. I have never been especially fond of them either. In fact, I think your treatment of them is a little too unradical. I really don't get why elves have to live in forests (please don't mention aquatic elves in a counterargument) and I think you could easily take them further than that. Eberron did a reasonable job making especially the elves more unique (and flawed) if you ask me. I don't get all the halfling hate. Personally, while they did possibly start out as hobbit rip-offs, I don't see them as especially hobbit-y. The gnomes are far more prone to that association (and I really dislike those, since the "crazy gnome" archetype is essentially the only instance of the wretched pests I ever see).  Halflings are nomadic, opportunistic, and cunning. I agree more with E_E's interpretation.

I do agree with your comments about items'¦ +1 sword is a really lame name. We have attempted to call it a sword of the first/second/third/'¦ circle to give it more of an in-game vibe, but in the long run the players are going to break the tension and call the +1 sword a +1 sword. Even worse are the bloody ability enhancers. Those are decidedly unheroic'¦

I'll see if I can come up with more stuff to say at a later date. Good discussion/setting brainstorm either way :)

Ok, well what about desert elves?.... I kid, I kid. I don't want to open the can of worms that is elemental subraces.

On the magic, I really have no real qualms with the way D&D handles it's magic system. While spells are admittedly named in the most bland manner possible, that is more a question of fluff than crunch, and D&D at it's heart is crunch. As much as FR is ridiculous, I think they were on to something when they called magic "The Art", but they dropped the ball when they didn't take it any farther than that. Renaming spells would go a long way to make magic more magical. ex "I cast shield." vs. "I cast the First Circle of Kin-Nal-Ord." or whatever. Planescape: Torment did a better job than most when it came to that.

Low-fantasy here may not have been the best term to describe the setting, but it's better than high-fantasy. A premise of D&D is that the PCs are exceptional, a cut above the rest. Magic and magical things shouldn't be nearly as rare for the PCs as they are for the other 99% of the world, but I think magic should be at the point where you can't buy scrolls at the scroll store, +2 shields at the magic arms and armor store, and selling a magic item would be neigh impossible and unthinkable. I think Wizards should have to quest for scrolls* and wands just as a Fighter would quest for an artifact sword or a Cleric a holy relic. They shouldn't be randomly rolled loot from a chest or an ogre's corpse.

*Especially if scrolls and spells are one of a kind. The legendary wizard Kin-Nal-Ord, to use that name again, could have created something called the Nine Circles of Kin-Nal-Ord, a collection of nine spell scrolls. As far as crunch goes, they could merely by nine spells right from the PHB  (hell, one could be Light, but in the setting, they are unique and quest-worthy items.

As far as Elves go, I think the forest is part of what makes Elves Elves, just as mountains/underground halls make Dwarves Dwarves. It's so ingrained, I think deviating from that would leave the classic behind.

If you want to do the classic sage-wizards, that sounds like an excellent approach. Of course, you are at risk of having many of your wizards be almost identical in their use of magic as they will only have access to the few commonly known spells (if any). A good way to give them some variation right off the bat would be to replace the wizarding schools with actual schools; Kin-Nal-Ord Circle Adepts, Torchholders of Andragast, the Arcane Eyes, The Binders Of Shuzt etc, who'd each have unique spell lists and capabilities.
Do you envision your mages as being only trained under apprenticeships or would there be rare established colleges or secret cabals?
     
Seeing as you want fewer monsters and the like, would this world be mostly settled with fewer wildernesses or how did you imagine that? Just brigands and highwaymen instead of ogres?


Slight digression, but what were the issues you had with Eberron? I agree it has flaws, just wondered what you found particually bad.

Yeah, I was just looking at the 3e spell list, seeing what went well, what were silly spells people never used, and what were good spells that people never used because dousing a room with fireballs was way quicker and easier. But the risk of wizards using the same spells is a good point you bring up (but that seems to happen anyways with the entire PHB to pick from, magic missile at 1st, fireball at 3rd, stoneskin at 5th). However, the rarity and awesomeness of NPCs with PC classes should keep this from happening. Aside from the PCs, I don't think there should be more than, i don't know, 20 NPCs that have PC classes, and remember the setting for now is focusing on a small area, so that's plausible. Plus, the PCs should be awesome.

I also noticed you grouped your schools by magic type (divination, evocation, abjuration, etc.) which is a good idea.

I'd like there to be wilderness and more enemies than just brigands and robbers, but we'd need to think how orcs and goblins (or whatever cannon fodder would make sense) can be cool in this setting and how pull them away from comic relief. Higher end monsters, though, should be exponentially more rare, and I think keeping the monster selection focused will be a good thing.

As for Eberron, it was a neat premise and I liked the focus on low-levels and the high saturation of low-level magic, but I thought it almost had too much going on. Too many races, too many Houses. Plus the regions didn't seem especially unique from each other, aside from the wilderness areas. Also, the map of Khorvaire is Russia, which made me roll my eyes. But I guess my gripes are just little nit-picks, it wasn't a terrible setting by any means.

20 NPC's? In the entire world? Seems a little... harsh. Remember 1st level players aren't that awesome. Low characters in general aren't that awesome. 20 seems a little excessive.
I really don't have that much trouble with character levels. Can't see why city guards couldn't be low-level fighters, even if i'd agree some militiamen and such would like the systematic training required to possess a fighter level. The problem isn't really PC classes, but excessive levelling and automatic associations with status. Kings don't need to be high level just because they are kings for example. Apply PC classes when they are appropriate.

I actually thought the schools could be cross-magic type. They already divide by specialists in the rules by magic type. Schools would allow for more specialized arsenals of spells.

No no, 20 NPCs with PC levels in the immediate local area of the setting (City and surroundings.)

A couple famous/infamous Fighter, a notorious Thief, a Wizard or two, the King's personal retainer, a bandit lord, etc.

Having some NPCs with PC levels is fine, but I think they should be reserved for the exceptional, like the Master of the Guard. Abstractly speaking, Levels are equivalent to XP, which is acquired by doing exceptional things. The average city guard would not have the opportunity to gain more than a few levels, as they don't do too much to push themselves farther.

I think trained military units and war veterans could easily be fighters, you could probably find a few low-level hedge wizards or druids doing petty tricks near many a small village, can't imagine rogues not abounding in the city (although, yes, they are a step above the common pickpocket) and can't see why barbarians from the north would be warriors instead of actual barbarians.

I must say I'm not very fond of bards though. I just can't wrap my head around music giving that much of a boost. Sure, morale is important, but in the heat of battle a song isn't really that helpful... It seems off. I'm not saying you can't have musicians, just that I'd probably make them rogues or experts with perform ranks...

Agreed. As much as I like the idea of the Bard, the execution is poor in D&D. But as for the level/class conundrum, that's a bit down the road. What did you think of the take on the Dwarves?

I always thought the Bards music was magical in nature? I mean he becomes an arcane spellcaster...

As for number of NPCs, I think level 1 NPCs would be a bit more liberal, like a Sergeant might be a level 1 fighter, due to his great deal of experience.

And level 1 thieves would be like, the cities best thieves, where there might be like 1 level 2 or something.

The other thing is that there's a significant increase in strength/ability for each level gained, especially in casters.

The way experience works seems to be there should be something like 4-8 level 1s for every level 2 around, etc.

Hmm, your dwarf interpretation appears fairly classic still. Reminds me of dwarves as seen in Warhammer and Dragon Age; the greedy grudge-bearing dwarf is more of a trope than the lawful good dwarf if you ask me.

And even if the bard's music is magical, I'd still say it is a fairly odd ability (and not in the cool weird way; just scratching-your-head odd). I like the secondary abilities of bards far more; bardic knowledge especially.    

Leetz, I think you really want is the regular typical D&D setting told a different way, than a whole new setting.  If that made sense.

On the Wiki, I have an old setting called Ouroboros; it's not exactly what you want but it might agree with you.  Check it out.  The spirit of it was similar in terms of magic; potions that could heal "one point" worth of damage were not too uncommon, but everything else upwards was.  +1 swords (and their ilk) were named artifacts either in obscurity or well known, and the subject of inter-noble rivalry.  Scrolls took effort to prepare and were not something typically sold (few who could buy it could use it, few magical people wanted to share them, and typically scribed for a specific reason).  Things like that.

M.

EDIT:  And howcome no matter how much people try and alter the core races, dwarfs always stay the same?  Even TVTropes has commented on this.

@CC: The Dwarves are still trope, but like I mentioned, I'm really not trying to reinvent the wheel, just make a really nice one. Take the basic ideas of D&D and look at them in a darker, more mature, intelligent light.

@ the other CC, I will have to look into that, but it sounds nice.

Ah Kindred Spirit!

My disc world is my attempt at making a adult/mature/realistic 80s classic DnD Dragonlance/FR/Harn basterd child.

I found that it didnt become disticnt untill i started to reinvent the races. here is my stuff distilled for some inspiration. Copy and pasted.

The Race of Elf was created by the Lord of the Gods, the God/ess of Nobility, Law, Sky, and Community. His creations are the mortal personification of these ideals compared to the other races. Elves are as the first of the Races has always seen itself as superior to the other races, an innate arrogance born from their father and their long lifes. Elves see themselves as the nobility of the world and the other races as peasants. The Elves excel at nation building but each differs in their methods, as the Sun Elves believe in civilization built upon law, the Star Elves believe it should built upon community, while the Moon elves believe it should be built upon the backs of the lesser races. All Elven races have an attraction to the sky both during the day and at night, especially the Divine Portal known as Sun/Sol or Moon/Luna. As Elven Legend goes, after the Gods were banished from the Disc, the Elves looked to the sky and the Divine Portal for the return of their master. Through devotion to the Portal, only the Elves could hear the whispers comming through it from the King of the Gods and it was from these whispers that the Gods taught the Elves the secrets of magic.

The Race of Man was created by the God/ess of Luck, Love, Money and Travel. Her creations are mortal personifications of these ideals compared to the other races. Dwarves, Humans, and Ogres are all superstitious creatures who belive in luck, Ogres fear bad luck, while Humans embrace good fortune, and Dwarves belive one comes with the other. The races of Man are all passionate creatures, who show emotion openly. Even the stoic Dwarf, as their love and passion is masked behind devotion and loyalty, Humans embrace the whole range of love from lust, to jealousy, and utter hatred. Ogres can barely contain their primal emotions. All races of Men are suffer from Greed, Dwarves hoard their wealth, Humans strive to obtain more through capitalism and manipulation, and Ogres will take from those they see as weaker than them. Though Dwarves live sedentary lives in their holds, every Dwarf must satisfy their worldlust and spend tens to hundreds of years traveling far from home as a part of obtaining adulthood. Humans have notoriously spread themselves all over the Disc, but its the Ogres who, indiviually still live nomadic lifestyles either traveling wild or civilized lands for most of their life.

The Race of Folk was created by the God/ess of learning, magic, writing(runes), and building. The Gnomes and the Pixies are seen as the favored children of this group. Gnomes are the technological masters of the Disc, with inventions devoid of magic that rival the late renaissance and Pixies are living vessals of magic each born with innate magical ability. However the Hobbyts were not blessed with knowledge in magic or science like their brothers, for they were given wisdom. Hobbyts are notorious for staying out of trouble, off the world stage, living peaceful and fulfilling lives with friends and family. Hobbyts however are underestimated and under appreciated in the world. Both their brothers see them as failures, while the other races either try to take advantage of Hobbyts or at best ignore them as inconsequential.

Created by the God of War, Strength, Glory, and Protection, the Race of Gobs are not a race of nation builders. This is not to say Orcs, Bugbears, and Goblins are uncivilized, however they are not social creatures and do not build well. Orcs are the worlds best soldiers, fearless and relentless. They march towards conflict weather it involves them or not. This has caused orcs to commonly become mercinaries, body guards, or soldiers fighting for another. When there is no conflict of others to join, Orcs will gather in numbers large enough to create their own conflict. If Orcs are the consummate soldiers, then Bugbears/Hobgoblins are natural born hunters and stalkers. However they are notorious loners, and rarely gather in large numbers. Like Hobbyts they blend into the cultures of other races well. The Goblins are malitious little creatures that are more defensive in nature than their big brothers. Goblins are fearful of being alone, and seek large groups for safety and protection. A goblin will fight ferociously to protect its group. As pack creatures Goblins are the most social of the Races of Gobs and due to their small size always seem to support the underdog or the helpless.

The Planar races come from the four prime planes that revolve around the Disc. From the Plane of Law, the original home of the Great Old Gods, comes the Soulforged the Gods final creation and servitor. Some would say they lack free will, however the soulforge claim they were mearly created complete and do not hunger for anything in life. Created by the combined power of the Elemental Lords, Dopplegangers lack purpose and a sence of self. However since they were not created by the rigid gods of law, their bodies share they creators chaotic nature, and can change their body shape at will. From the Plane of Good and Evil, born from the first act of free will, come the Assimar and Tiefling respectively. The Assimar are created when a mortal devouts their life to the concepts of Good, Charity, and Love. On rare occasion this person is reborn as an Assimar. However the Tieflings are mortals of another race that has made a pact with a devil or demon. They are then reborn as a Tiefling.

and on to the wiki to get back to work...

That's a lot of good stuff Lath, but I really don't want to get even that in depth with back-stories and creation stories.

As far as I'm concerned, the history of the Setting goes back ~2,000 years, when Man came across the Great Western Ocean after some great catastrophe (perhaps they lost a war to Dragons?). Upon arrival to the current physical area of the Setting, the Elves made war with the newcomers. The Dwarves had since long retreated to their deep citadels. A 1,000 years of on-again, off-again war was waged between Man and Elf until a great accord was struck. The Elves kept the great forest that covers who knows what, Man kept the lands the conquered upon the western coast of the new continent.

Keep in mind, this is just the history for the immediate area of the setting. Along the coast, both north and south, different bands of Human refugees landed, some fought more than others, some fought little. This lets the world's borders be pushed easily, plus dropping rumors of far away lands is always fun. I'm still deciding on whether to make the current area more north or south.

As for creation stories, I'd like to keep anything from being known to be true. Within each race, not just humans, different religions and beliefs should spring up.