The Campaign Builder's Guild

'Starting Packages', that is, ready bought basic characters, would be useful to have for new players (Starting package: Sorcerer has such and such hit die, such and such saves, such and such spells and such and such skills and you don't need to change anything else) as an example for character creation and also to be used, possibly, in starting games.

Classless levelless 4 prez!

Quote1. What kind of feel are we going for? Gritty and dark, light and fluffy, historical/mythological, high fantasy, hardcore monster bashing, something else entirely? This affects all kinds of things like hit points/wound points, combat systems, critical hits, healing, type and prevalence and power or magic, and so on.

2. What kinds of players are we aiming at? There are optimizers, powergamers, munchkins, wargamers, manga fans, history buffs, tortured artistes, etc. They all want slightly different things from a game.

3. How much crunch are you looking to have? Some players don't want to wade through tech trees, prerequisites, XP costs, or the details of spell casting. They just want to make a character and go on with life. Other players don't feel fulfilled unless everything about their character is spelled out in gory detail.

4. Just how similar to SRD d20 do you want it to be? The more similar it is, the easier it will be to teach your players, and to attract new ones. But then the more you'll be stuck with d20 artifacts like BAB and save progressions, base classes, feat selections, particular class abilities like evasion or rage. The more different, the more freedom you have to make the game the way you want it to be. But also much more work involved in statting out spells, monsters, equipment, GP costs, XP costs, making new spell lists, etc.

1 - it should be a generic system that can fit any of these types, so no one gaming feel should be our goal. I do however think we should aim for more realism in our system than the D&D one has, so I'm voting away from massive amounts of HP and armor with no reduction on damage taken.

2 - Again, it should be simple enough so that it's not tailored to one division of gamers. We're obviously not going to create multiple subsets of rules to play with for the CBG System, but the one we do shouldn't have disencouraging restrictions if it doesn't need them.

3 - I think all we really need is the actual game rules for everything. We won't have to go and design functions and effects of everything because a lot of things will be similar really. As I said earlier, monsters, NPCs, and even items can be built using the point system we have envisioned, so once we lay down the rules for abilities, movement, combat, magic, and experience, and develop the point system and the costs of everything, most of our job is complete (unless I'm forgetting something).

4 - I think we should try to make it as different as possible. My personal opinion is that it should look like it is based partially on d20 (probably because it is), but different enough that it is very clearly its own game and not a variant. This might end up being done very quickly when we start making our own representations of combat bonuses, penalties, and resistances, sacking monsters that we don't really need to portray (there are a LOT of these, many of them could be designed with small modifications), get rid of the arcane/divine magic divide, and remove the alignment system in favor of some sort of system such as a Reputation, Allegiances, Honor, or Corruption (or something).

QuoteI spent some time playtesting and helping to design Ysgarth, and I always felt the biggest two problems we had were reducing the learning curve so new players could pick it up faster, and balancing things out to prevent the optimizers from dominating the game. The two problems fed off each other - those people who knew the game well, knew what combinations had high levels of synergy and could create real combat monsters, while newbies and casual players had a hard time even putting together competent characters.

The high levels of flexibility in the system meant that you could fairly easily capture a wide variety of characters. But only a few types of characters were mechanically competitive with the one-dimensional minimaxed hedgehogs. So all that flexibility just went to waste from a practical standpoint.

I have confidence in the increasing cost of talents in a tech tree preventing combat dominators based on their XP. The idea I'm getting right now is that a talent costs so many points to buy, increases in cost to keep improving the higher it goes, and usually requires so many points into it before its improved versions and resultants can be bought, which will also cost more. I'm seeing it kind of like a large, universal Diablo 2 skill tree, where you buy a skill to get access to the ones after it or just improve it if you like it, and instead of requiring a certain level to purchase the next greater skill you need a certain number of points in each of the ones that lead to it. The biggest difficulty here that I can see would be making sure that while greater skills are obviously better, their predecessors aren't left in the dust the moment the greater ones become accessible (perhaps just through the sheer advantage in point cost?).

Also, the only other really big problem I see with a tech tree skill system (once we get the point costs all balanced out and such) is just having a really big list. Even that may be alright, we'll just be using a lot of spoilers for sections and subsections.

QuoteWhy do we have to aim for something? What is this project, a serious venture or just something we want to do?

I want to do it, because I want a new system that has all of the cool features of my favorite systems without the downsides that seem a little unreasonable (and I'm not saying this from a munchkin perspective).

QuoteStarting Packages', that is, ready bought basic characters, would be useful to have for new players (Starting package: Sorcerer has such and such hit die, such and such saves, such and such spells and such and such skills and you don't need to change anything else) as an example for character creation and also to be used, possibly, in starting games.

Starting packages are definitely a must-have, but what you just said sparked a thought in me. Should we even use dice for hit points? Should we use d20 dice at all? I've been thinking maybe that the use of d6's only would be cooler, maybe simpler.

I think that's everything I wanted to say for now.

Is randomness in chargen (dice functions) a good idea in a point-buy system? What if you roll a 1? I say 3 + tough mod (see my ability spread, above: Dexterity, Agility, Strength, Toughness, Luck).

Is randomness in chargen (dice functions) a good idea in a point-buy system? What if you roll a 1? I say 3 + tough mod (see my ability spread, above: Dexterity, Agility, Strength, Toughness, Luck).
*double post*
*computer sux*

Yeah, actually, that would certainly move away from the D20 system... I mean... we could call it the 'D6' system instead :P.
We could use the 'HP = 3 + Con Modifier' thing, with it adding another 3 + Con modifier's worth for a cheap cost (less than even skill points) and saves being similar, although not as cheap. Of course, this is all depending on what abilities we keep. Who agrees with Cymro's ability scores?

QuoteStarting packages are definitely a must-have, but what you just said sparked a thought in me. Should we even use dice for hit points? Should we use d20 dice at all? I've been thinking maybe that the use of d6's only would be cooler, maybe simpler.

See my post at the top of the page.
I see no reason for hit dice.  WP can be a function of the COn type ability, WP can be a function of that ability times whatever mods/feats seem appropriate.

Quote from: Golem011Yeah, actually, that would certainly move away from the D20 system... I mean... we could call it the 'D6' system instead :P.
We could use the 'HP = 3 + Con Modifier' thing, with it adding another 3 + Con modifier's worth for a cheap cost (less than even skill points) and saves being similar, although not as cheap. Of course, this is all depending on what abilities we keep. Who agrees with Cymro's ability scores?

You know *my* opinion. No need for the redundancy of three dexterities, and perception comes dangerously close to a mental stat. Will could be handled by "toughness" because... that's just where it's at. My dexterity division makes sense because (firstly) manual dexterity and gross dexterity are separated and (secondly) because accuracy is already handled by manual dexterity. Archer =/= Acrobat.

I have a suggestion for magic (although it may be a bit early.)

I don't think we should have levels of spells. Instead, MP (Mana Points, or Spell Points, or whatever) should be derived from a certain ability score (after paying enough points to GET casting, that is). Spells could have any number of functions, damage types etc chosen from a long menu; for instance, you want a damaging spell. You see that there is a 'damage' option on the first menu, and from that you must choose a type of damage. You choose fire, and then move on to area, range etc of the spell. This isn't priceless, though, the spell can cost varying amounts of levelling points to create and varying amounts of MP to cast (a single-target fire 1D4 touch spell would cost less points to create and less MP to cast than a cone-shaped force 1D6 spell).

I say recharge times. You buy a spell. You can use it every x number of rounds. We've got enough points in character creation already! And likewise for levels. Spells should be handled like combat abilities or what have you. Every one unique... none of this systematic crap where they all draw from some "pool".

QuoteYou know *my* opinion. No need for the redundancy of three dexterities, and perception comes dangerously close to a mental stat. Will could be handled by "toughness" because... that's just where it's at. My dexterity division makes sense because (firstly) manual dexterity and gross dexterity are separated and (secondly) because accuracy is already handled by manual dexterity. Archer =/= Acrobat.

Accuracy is a function of being able to hit a target.
RL example:  I am a deadly shot with a longbow.  I qualified Expert with the M16 in the Army, every time.  I have the manual dexterity of a camel when it comes to delicate work, like mini painting.
My ability as an acrobat is limited, far inferior to my accuracy with any type of weapon.

QuoteI have a suggestion for magic (although it may be a bit early.)

I don't think we should have levels of spells. Instead, MP (Mana Points, or Spell Points, or whatever) should be derived from a certain ability score (after paying enough points to GET casting, that is). Spells could have any number of functions, damage types etc chosen from a long menu; for instance, you want a damaging spell. You see that there is a 'damage' option on the first menu, and from that you must choose a type of damage. You choose fire, and then move on to area, range etc of the spell. This isn't priceless, though, the spell can cost varying amounts of levelling points to create and varying amounts of MP to cast (a single-target fire 1D4 touch spell would cost less points to create and less MP to cast than a cone-shaped force 1D6 spell).

Spellcraft, as a feat thingy, would be a prereq for spells abd rituals, or so it seems to me.

Yup. So, no magic stat, just a (wait for xxx rounds until you can cast this again) thing. Sounds good to me.

Quote from: beejazzI say recharge times. You buy a spell. You can use it every x number of rounds. We've got enough points in character creation already! And likewise for levels. Spells should be handled like combat abilities or what have you. Every one unique... none of this systematic crap where they all draw from some "pool".

I had though of such for combat type spells.  

Here's MY abilities (say yay or nay): Str, Man. Dex, Gr. Dex (Mandex and Grdex would most likely be the annotations), Tns, WPwr. Or, Strength, Manual Dexterity, Gross Dexterity, Toughness, Willpower.

QuoteSee my post at the top of the page.
I see no reason for hit dice. WP can be a function of the COn type ability, WP can be a function of that ability times whatever mods/feats seem appropriate.

Yeah, this sounds good to me. We'll still need dice for combat I think, though.

QuoteYeah, actually, that would certainly move away from the D20 system... I mean... we could call it the 'D6' system instead  .
We could use the 'HP = 3 + Con Modifier' thing, with it adding another 3 + Con modifier's worth for a cheap cost (less than even skill points) and saves being similar, although not as cheap. Of course, this is all depending on what abilities we keep. Who agrees with Cymro's ability scores?

No offense to Cymro or anyone else, but I don't think 3 dexterity-related scores is a good idea, even if it does seem realistic. That's just too much to worry about when spending starting points. Agility and Accuracy, or something like that, works for me. I like Beejazz's array of Dexterity, Agility, Strength, Toughness, and Luck, maybe with a 6th score called Mana or the like (if we choose to do it that way). An interesting twist would be to see a willpower equivalent be handled by Luck.

I think we should have a Mana score, but have it be unique in that you can't put points in it until you buy the ability to cast spells.

Whoops, I'm too late on the Mana thing. I like the sound of recharge better to be honest, but even so should we put a part of the character sheet stating how fast a character recharges? Maybe with the expenditure of points recharge times can be reduced?