The Campaign Builder's Guild

Hello all, it's Xev again. Sorry I've been away from the more artistic areas of the board; school started and I started a new job. But for one reason or another, I've had a real head for numbers lately.

As a DM, I have four goals. My first and foremost goal is to make my games fun for my players; all other goals come second to, and are derived from, the first. The second is to make every aspect of the rules, be that classes, skills, feats, or even combat maneuvers, equal in value to one another; equal, not identical (in balancing every aspect of the game, players are equal, and thus are not outshined by others). My third goal is to make the game as realistic, but still simplistic, as possible; I believe that the more realistic the game is, the more real the players will believe it is, and thus the more realistic and informed they will act. The fourth goal is to perfect my writing and collect material for my novels.

Today's dose of Xeviat Brand Crunchy Goodness deals with the first three goals. Mostly it deals with the second, but the first and third play heavily into it.

Answer me this: if you're playing a big beefy fighter or barbarian, how fun would it be to punt a goblin, perform a pile driver on an ogre, or throw a thug into his thuggish friends? If you're like me, probably a good deal of fun. But the rules currently don't allow this without getting heavily into supplemental rules.

My second question is this: How many times have you seen someone bullrush someone, or overrun someone? Bullrush is seen more often than overrun, but only really when cliff, Combat Brute, or Storm Trooper are involved. Your experience may be different from mine, but I see trip and grapple used more than bullrush and overrun.

So I got to thinking about how to improve Bullrush. My first idea was to remove the "have to follow the target" aspect of it; I can shove a smaller person much farther than five feet (and they fall on their ass 9 times out of 10 ... don't ask). Then I started to think about sports, and how I can kick or bat a ball very far. Then I thought about kicking a small animal, but stopped when my conscious told me I was being bad ...

Anyway! ... I recently categorized most of the feats in all of the WotC books I have access to. I noticed Mighty Blow and Knock-Back and another feat that was identical, but better, than Mighty Blow. I started to ask if such an action was really so difficult to perform; or rather, does such an action require great skill to perform (we all know you'd need to be a tough SOB to hurl someone).

So between baseball, kitten kicking, and all the other horrible stuff that swirls around the collection of nerves and fat I call a mind, I decided ultimately to implement three different throwing rules (and while I was at it, improve Bullrush and Overrun). So without further wait (or further horror), here are the rules I just wrote today:

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(Note, new or altered text is in RED)

BULL RUSH
You can make a bull rush as an attack or as part of a charge (see Charge, below). When you make a bull rush, you attempt to push an opponent straight back instead of damaging him, or you may attempt to knock a foe away with an attack. You can only bull rush an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Initiating a Bull Rush: First, you make an unarmed touch attack against the defender. Doing this provokes an attack of opportunity from the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don't provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.)
Second, you and the defender make opposed Strength checks. You each add a +4 bonus for each size category you are larger than Medium or a â,¬'4 penalty for each size category you are smaller than Medium. You get a +2 bonus if you are charging. You may accept a +4 bonus if you have movement remaining and will move with the defender. The defender gets a +4 bonus if he has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.
Bull Rush Results: If you beat the defenderâ,¬,,¢s Strength check result, you push him back 5 feet, plus an additional 5 feet for each 5 points by which your check result is greater than the defenderâ,¬,,¢s check result. (Note: The defender provokes attacks of opportunity if he is moved. So do you, if you move with him. The two of you do not provoke attacks of opportunity from each other, however.)
Once moved, the defender must make a Balance check (DC equals the amount they failed their strength check by) or fall prone. This balance check suffers the normal penalties for terrain, as usual for the balance skill.
If you fail to beat the defenderâ,¬,,¢s Strength check result, your opponent is not moved.
Knock-Back: [/i] Rather than attempting to move an opponent with a push, you may attempt to knock a foe away with an attack. Performing a knock-back is a full-round action that provokes an attack of opportunity, during which you make a melee attack roll against the defender. (If you have the Improved Bull Rush feat, you don't provoke an attack of opportunity from the defender.)
In addition to dealing damage normally, a successful attack forces the defender to make a Strength check (DC equals damage dealt). The defender gains a +4 bonus for each size category it is larger than Medium or a -4 penalty for each size category it is smaller than Medium. The defender also gets a +4 bonus if it has more than two legs or is otherwise exceptionally stable.
If the defender's strength check fails, the results of the knock-back are the same as a bull rush.

GRAPPLE
If Youâ,¬,,¢re Pinning an Opponent
You can attempt to damage your opponent with an opposed grapple check, you can attempt to use your opponentâ,¬,,¢s weapon against him, or you can attempt to move the grapple (all described above). At your option, you can prevent a pinned opponent from speaking.
You can use a disarm action to remove or grab away a well secured object worn by a pinned opponent, but he gets a +4 bonus on his roll to resist your attempt (see Disarm).
You may voluntarily release a pinned character as a free action; if you do so, you are no longer considered to be grappling that character (and vice versa).
You canâ,¬,,¢t draw or use a weapon (against the pinned character or any other character), escape anotherâ,¬,,¢s grapple, retrieve a spell component, pin another character, or break anotherâ,¬,,¢s pin while you are pinning an opponent.
Throw Opponent: After pinning an opponent, you can attempt to throw them violently to the floor, drop them against your knee, or otherwise cause them considerable pain. If you maintain your pin for one full round, or if you can make multiple grapple checks in a round, you may throw your opponent with your next grapple check. To throw an opponent, make an opposed grapple check. If you win, you move your opponent into an adjacent square, where they fall prone and take damage equal to twice your unarmed damage dice plus 1.5 your Strength modifier. In addition, if you win by 5 or more, you may move your opponent an additional 5 feet for every 5 points your grapple check exceeded theirs. If you lose, your opponent is moved to an adjacent square, and you are no longer grappling them.

TRIP
You can try to trip an opponent as an unarmed melee attack, or with a flexible or hooked weapon. Exceptionally skilled combatants can send opponents flying with proper leverage. You can only trip an opponent who is one size category larger than you, the same size, or smaller.
Making a Trip Attack: Make an unarmed melee touch attack against your target. This provokes an attack of opportunity from your target as normal for unarmed attacks.
If your attack succeeds, make a Strength check opposed by the defenderâ,¬,,¢s Dexterity or Strength check (whichever ability score has the higher modifier). A combatant gets a +4 bonus for every size category he is larger than Medium or a â,¬'4 penalty for every size category he is smaller than Medium. The defender gets a +4 bonus on his check if he has more than two legs or is otherwise more stable than a normal humanoid.
If you win, you trip the defender. Additionally, if your strength check exceeds the defender's check by 5 or more,  you may move them up to 5 feet for every 5 points your check exceeded theirs.
If you lose, the defender may immediately react and make a Strength check opposed by your Dexterity or Strength check to try to trip you. Your opponent cannot move you with a counter-trip, except for making you prone.
Avoiding Attacks of Opportunity: If you have the Improved Trip feat, or if you are tripping with a weapon (see below), you donâ,¬,,¢t provoke an attack of opportunity for making a trip attack.
Being Tripped (Prone): A tripped character is prone. Standing up is a move action.
Tripping a Mounted Opponent: You may make a trip attack against a mounted opponent. The defender may make a Ride check in place of his Dexterity or Strength check. If you succeed, you pull the rider from his mount.
Tripping with a Weapon: Some weapons can be used to make trip attacks. In this case, you make a melee touch attack with the weapon instead of an unarmed melee touch attack, and you donâ,¬,,¢t provoke an attack of opportunity.
If you are tripped during your own trip attempt, you can drop the weapon to avoid being tripped.

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I haven't tested any of these yet, but my more rules savvy players are very excited about the prospects. What have you to say?

i actually had a mage use reduce person for the very purpose of the thread title.....

I like it; I'd love to see that orc barb with a str of 20 finally start chuckin' gobbers and stunties.

Why does the "drop into an adjacent square" do so much damage, though? It's like an automatic critical hit with a two handed weapon. I think that it should hurt more than a standard unarmed attack, but I think that double damage as well as 1.5 times str could be too much.

Also, I'd like to see the "knock back" become a standard action. Maybe through a feat or a certain rank in a skill? Class ability? In any case, I think it would be cool to see a big guy running around tossing the wee ones.

Perhaps rules for knock-back with weapons in standard combat could also be implemented. Not for every attack, a dagger slash wouldn't knock you back, but maybe just with a certain large amount of damage done with a bludgeoning weapon, or maybe on a critical hit with any bludgeoning weapon. Maybe... any weapon that's bigger than you (i.e. a halfling getting hit with a large orge club or a two-handed medium sledgehammer, or a human getting slammed with a large ogre sledgehammer). I just wanna see people get tossed around more in combat. What's the point of having twelve foot tall dudes if someone doesn't get airborne?

I didn't want to base knock-back on a damage threshold, because different amounts of damage mean different things. I also didn't want it to only apply to critical hits, becaues it is something you can either do or not (though there's a point where any attack should force the check; after all, it is very difficult to kick a ball without making it move).

Knock-back could be made a quicker action by a feat, definately. I made it a full-attack to help balance it, since it's dealing damage normally.

As for being "dropped into an adjacent square" with the toss function of grapple doing so much damage, it's not being dropped. You're slamming the foe into the floor. Imagine grabbing someone's head and slamming it into a wall; will that deal more damage than your first?

And it's only double the dice, which only gets crazy for a monk. But considering setting this up requires two grapple checks, which could have been used to damage them with each, you're actually doing less damage with a toss than normal grappling (though, in its defense, you are also controlling the opponent better).

To answer the thread's title:
"Well, its a good thing we're playing Iron Heroes!"

In response to what you have posted:
For Bull Rush, I believe this is (at least partially) already covered under the Awsome Blow feat.  If you haven't already, I would suggest taking a look at it.  Otherwise ok.

For Grapple, since d20 Modern is the only system to have rules for this, I would say it looks pretty good.  Not very realistic, mind you, but pretty good.

For Trip, the text you added about tripping with a weapon is superfluous.  Not only do the weapons themselves mention it already, but the Trip entry itself already mentions it.  As for the part about Tripping an Opponent and having them go flying, well... this is where I'm going to have to go in favor of reality.  Tripping just couldn't send people flying, at least not with only what you listed the requirments as.

Awesome Blow requires the character/monster to be Large or larger. Since a human can kick a cat and send it flying with no training, I didn't think such a maneuver required skill (as a feat would imply); it only requires ability (represented by having a high strength).

I forgot that grapple had rules for it. My only misgiving for what I wrote is that it takes BAB into account; perhaps it should be an opposed strength check with the appropriate modifiers instead?

I didn't add text about tripping with a weapon ... the only text I added is red. That's the trip entry right out of the SRD, with my changes.

As for not being able to move someone with a trip, that's what a hip throw is. With propper mommentum, you can send someone flying.

Perhaps without proficiency, it might be best to have the throwing distances 5 feet per 10 you beat their strength check by (because there's always the chance someone could roll a 1 and you roll a 20, thus you move them 15 feet, a difficult prospect). But this is one of those cases of making the rules balanced for the PCs, letting them do what could realistically be done, perhaps not in a 100% realistic manner.

But I stand by my belief that throwing someone takes ability, not skill. Skill can help, and sure there will be feats to improve these.

I'd appreciate an indept look at the mechanics I made; they could always use polishing.

Why not work the throw damage off of falling damage? It seems a bit more realistic than unarmed damage. So for every 10 feet thrown, the person takes an additional 1d6 damage. The base damage to the throw would just be an unarmed strike. Also, I think that with the throw action, it would make sense to invert the size mods. Being smaller is an advantage when throwing someone, as you can use your body as a fulcrum easier.

Not a bad idea, helix. I guess it depends on the speed at which you fall, and the speed at which you are thrown. But I guess they're close enough for game purposes.

I will have to disagree with the inversion of the modifiers. The reality of that short kid tossing the bullies being ignored, I definately want to give the bonus to the orc chucking the kobold or the ogre chucking the elf, not the other way around. It just seems... right.

They're not close enough at all Helix and Velox; interestingly enough, I had originally thought about doing that.

The problem is that falling acceleration on Earth is 1 foot per second per second; Wizards has determined that a character will fall 600 feet in the first 6 seconds of a fall, and 1,200 feet every round after that. I'd need someone who is much more skilled in physics to determine how fast someone will fly when thrown by a D&D character (considering a 10 ft. throw will happen instantaniously, as the other character doesn't lose their actions).

Even still, my reasoning for using unarmed damage as the base is this: what's the difference fundamentally between me "throwing" my fist at you, or me throwing you into a hard surface. Technically, it will hurt you more to be thrown or pushed into a hard surface (in dirty fights, people typically wrestle and try to bash each other's heads on the floor). Mechanically speaking as well, 1d6 per 10 feet is poor damage; theoretically speaking, being able to regularly beat your opponent's strength by 10 means you have at least a +10 strength bonus-ish, and you'd be better off with an unarmed attack (1d3+10) instead of throwing them for 1d6 damage; granted, I'm probably very wrong in that case, since 1d3+str is much lower than 1d20+str, but the 1d3+str isn't opposed by your enemy's 1d20+str.

I'm glad to see interest in this is back. Please, lets keep talking shop, I'd like to make these work well and realistically (currently, I'm a bit worried about the fact that I have BAB applying to a grappling throw; it should probably be an opposed grapple check followed by an opposed strength check now that I think of it).

QuoteThe problem is that falling acceleration on Earth is 1 foot per second per second; Wizards has determined that a character will fall 600 feet in the first 6 seconds of a fall, and 1,200 feet every round after that.

had[/i] to comment :)

As for as how far a dnd character could throw someone? I'm not working out the physics, but "not very far" is probably a realistic answer. How far could you throw a 100 lb weight, even in the most convenient throwable configuration? An olympic athlete could do better, i'm sure, but even then, i think we're looking at something measured in single digits.

this article may help, if you're looking at physics:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shot_put
olympic athletes can throw a 16 lb shot-put about 75 ft. I think that means 160 lbs would go about 7.5 ft?

So the throws should probably be 5 feet for a successful check, +5 feet for every 10 you beat their check? We're not talking entire realism here, just enough so that you can suspend disbelief.

And thanks for the correction, I thought 1 ft. per second seemed low. As to my understanding, an olympic weight lifter was clocked in around a 23 str in D&D, so with size bonuses/penalties and massive strengths, we could allow a little more than that.

Shiny!

I'm not too hot on flinging people with trip weapons, but I can kind of see it.

The bull rush though is brilliant.

So what do you do with the esisting feats the 'kinda' do this?

As the board regulars know, I'm more than willing to change the way things currently work. The fact that feats like Knockback and Awesome Blow require you to be larger than PCs makes them basically worthess. But as we've seen in popular fiction, especially TV and Cartoons, characters knock others away often. Yes, it should be easier for larger characters ... and that's why it's still in the system.

As for trip weapons, I was using trip comparing it to a hip throw; trip weapons complicate matters, but one could imagine tripping someone at just the right momment that they're sent sprawling in one direction or another.