Systems other than d20

Lmns Crn · October 03, 2006, 01:26:20 PM

I've gradually become disillusioned with the class-and-level model of gaming. I have really thought over the idea of abandoning it for quite some time, but I don't really want to write a system from scratch. Curious about other options, I asked some people about other game mechanic systems.

One of the more interesting responses I got was The Window. I've spent the last half hour reading through the system in its entirety (yes, it's that concise), and I'm pretty intrigued by its freeform nature.

Two things:

1. Give it a readover, and let me know your impressions. Personally, I'd love to try it out sometime.

2. Talk about a few other alternative systems you have experience with. Personally, I'm looking for something that goes well with the Jade Stage, but that doesn't mean we have to limit this discussion along those lines. Far better to have a good sense of what's out there, what's available.

Xathan · October 03, 2006, 01:49:08 PM

Reading over window, I have mixed reactions. Part of the problem with the system is a concrete reward system - there is no concrete way to advance your character. While that is not nessicarily a bad thing, it still does limit the enjoyment for some people. The other problem is internal balance - there is no reason someone can't discribe a character in such a way to have d6's for most of their abilities, or even more realistically d8 (for those of you who are reading this but haven't read windows yet, lower rolls are better, and a d6 means you will never fail in a skill check. Average abilities are d12, meaning you have a 50% chance of succeeding.) However, the system does offer amazing flexibility and forces the actors (Window's term for players) to think creatively. Another flaw I see with it is the realities of handling a fantasy environment: if you are playing a magic wielding swordsman, who is a world renowned swordsman (d6) and a average ability mage (d12) and you wanted to strike your foe with a blade created and guided by your magic, would you roll a d6, a d12, or would you roll a d12 twice to deterimine if you were able to create and use the blade, and then the d6 on the opposed roll to see if you hit, or what? I'm going to give the system a more throughough look over, but my initial conclusion is that the system is excellent for a troupe of experienced actors with a storyteller who is quick on his feet mentally. I'd really have to try it out before I judge it any futher.

As for other systems, I've played a lot. I really like the World of Darkness system by White Wolf, which offers a lot of flexibility and openess and does encourage storytelling more than number crunching, but it would require making an entirely new system for each world, which is more effort and time than most people have. The Exalted system, again by White Wolf, has similar benifits and flaws. Mutants and Masterminds is a wonderful, flexible, and mostly OGC system that only uses a single d20. The flaw in the system is that people become rediculously powerful rediculously quickly, and it is structured mainly for a superhero game: other games don't work nearly as well with it. (exclusing fantasy and sci-fi with superhero-like elements.)

Xathan · October 03, 2006, 02:02:45 PM

And I just found the optinals section of the system. Now I have even less objections to Windows. :)

Soup Nazi · October 03, 2006, 02:22:41 PM

Often the choice of gaming system, comes down to the type of game one actually wants to play. Certain systems work better for certain styles. I myself loved Ars Magica (1st edition; I am not familiar with any of the editions that have come since) for any type of high magic fantasy game, while Castle Falkenstien (not the gurps version), for victorian age/steam punk), WoD works fantastic for any modern setting (even those not based in horror), and the old school CoC (the percentile based one; not d20 for the love of all that is unholy), is marvelous for almost anything with a dark sinister feel.

I have come to realize over the years, that learning and teaching new gaming systems requires the full support of your players, and if they are not particularly interested in making the time investment, its not worth bothering. I have also found that it is crucial for the system one is implimenting, for the players to have full access to it, which often makes published settings (which everyone can buy a copy of) far easier to teach than anything one can homebrew (no matter how good it might be). For an experienced player, it is so much easier to be able to read the material at their own pace, and figure out the system on their own (with guidance as needed), than it is for you to teach them without their own reference.

Like Alex said, WoD is great, but it requires support material, because the core rules do not actually tackle anything supernatural, and Exalted (while also quite good from a rules perspective) is so completely intertwined with the setting, that the rules make no sense what-so-ever if you try to divorce them from the pre-published campaign setting.

On the plus side you can usually find Ars Magica (which I think you might fall in love with Crayon), on ebay for almost nothing. It was written by the same guy who eventually wrote Mage the Ascention, and Vampire the Masquerade (but it predates White Wolf). It won numerous Origins Awards back when it came out, including game of the year, and functions much like 1st ed Mage the Ascention, without being tied to the metaplot of the old world of darkness.

Something to consider at least.

-Peace Out-

Captain Obvious · October 03, 2006, 02:22:55 PM

I like the Toon system. d6's and d66's only. No levels or classes. You can make anything almost. This opens up the abillity to powergame, but since it'sa comedy setting, no one does. And there is no experience, but you can gain points to add to your skills or to gain new Schticks (special abbilities) by good roleplaying, completing important adventure bits, and being funny (for this last bit, the rule was that if you can make the Annimator [DM] or some players laugh significantly through something you do, you get an equivalent amount of new skill points).

Also, i love the fact that is you want to do something that is physically impossible, you have to fail a Smarts check first (i.e. not realise you're running over a canyon).

Lmns Crn · October 03, 2006, 02:35:12 PM

Quote from: DementiaReading over window, I have mixed reactions. Part of the problem with the system is a concrete reward system - there is no concrete way to advance your character. While that is not nessicarily a bad thing, it still does limit the enjoyment for some people.

The other problem is internal balance - there is no reason someone can't discribe a character in such a way to have d6's for most of their abilities, or even more realistically d8 (for those of you who are reading this but haven't read windows yet, lower rolls are better, and a d6 means you will never fail in a skill check. Average abilities are d12, meaning you have a 50% chance of succeeding.)[/quote]However, the system does offer amazing flexibility and forces the actors (Window's term for players) to think creatively.[/quote]Another flaw I see with it is the realities of handling a fantasy environment: if you are playing a magic wielding swordsman, who is a world renowned swordsman (d6) and a average ability mage (d12) and you wanted to strike your foe with a blade created and guided by your magic, would you roll a d6, a d12, or would you roll a d12 twice to deterimine if you were able to create and use the blade, and then the d6 on the opposed roll to see if you hit, or what?[/quote]I'm going to give the system a more throughough look over, but my initial conclusion is that the system is excellent for a troupe of experienced actors with a storyteller who is quick on his feet mentally. I'd really have to try it out before I judge it any futher.[/quote]I'm basically really intrigued, and I want to try it out, for sure.

Epic Meepo · October 03, 2006, 02:49:02 PM

While the Window is a noble effort, I'd have to say I'm not too sure about its merits. The whole idea of replacing numbers with adjectives that just happen to have numbers attached to them is rather asinine. Also, I don't measure paperwork by how much information I must record, but by how many times I must reference a character sheet during play, and since you have to check your competence in various skills and adjust your health as you take damage, the Window is about par for the course when it comes to referencing paperwork.

The Window, like most free-form RPGs, does allow for more description and less reliance upon rules-lawyering to resolve actions. But using fewer rolls during play does not necessarily free one from any of the inherent drawbacks of RPG rules in general. So long as results are determined by random rolls, the system is necessarily shackled by the laws of probability. If I'm going to play a game where probability influences the course of the story, you'd better believe I want a rules set where the probabilities have been rigorously analyzed and properly nuanced.

Too many free-form RPGs assume that mechanics with simplified probabilities somehow equal satisfactory action resolution, but I usually find the opposite to be true. A system of action resolution by random number generation only works well when you carefully consider how the numbers will impact your story, thus avoiding unanticipated pitfalls. Anything less is like baking a cake with random ingredients because taking the time to read the recipe takes time away from the actual experience of cooking; yes, you get more actual cooking done, but you're much more likely to find that something you do leads to an unexpected and unfavorable result.

When it comes to free-form roleplaying, I've always been of the opinion that one should just do some actual free-form roleplaying, not kinda-sorta free-form roleplaying with kinda-sorta probabilitic rules. If you want rules, go all out and define things clearly. If you don't want rules, go all out and drop rules altogether. When I'm playing free-form and have a character who's good with a sword and okay with magic, I can generally figure out how often he should succeed when using either without needing to assign dice to anything. Based on other knowledge about the character, I also have a feel for how often he'll be injured in combat, and I can figure out when, during the course of the narrative, it would make sense that he sustains injury. The only real free-form RPG is improvisational acting/storytelling; anything else is just a wimpy rules set that fails to live up to its full potential.

Lmns Crn · October 03, 2006, 03:10:59 PM

QuoteThe whole idea of replacing numbers with adjectives that just happen to have numbers attached to them is rather asinine.

I'm not sure asinine is the word I'd use. I mean, no, they didn't eliminate numbers. But it is a step toward ensuring that the numbers are derived from the characters, and not the other way around.

As for the rest, I'll chalk it up to a difference in playstyles. Obviously, the Window (and systems like it) are not for everyone. Personally, I am comfortable including probablity without placing probability under the microscope, but I fully except that not everyone agrees with me there. I don't know that unexpected results equate to unsatisfactory results, or that more complex probability systems are more effective. Maybe they are. But I know d20 isn't quite what I'm looking for all the time, and I'm willing to give other options a try.

snakefing · October 03, 2006, 04:08:10 PM

I'll take a look at this in a little, but just a quick question.

Have you ever looked at FUDGE? I've not played it, but it is fairly straightforward and over the years I've heard from a number of enthusiasts.

Epic Meepo · October 03, 2006, 05:44:32 PM

Quote from: Luminous Crayon...they didn't eliminate numbers. But it is a step toward ensuring that the numbers are derived from the characters, and not the other way around.

I don't know that unexpected results equate to unsatisfactory results, or that more complex probability systems are more effective.[/quote]I know d20 isn't quite what I'm looking for all the time, and I'm willing to give other options a try.[/quote]
I do agree with that sentiment.

I'm just iffy about the Window; it hasn't convinced me that it has any features that make it more useful than X (where X is any other free-form RPG). To impress me, a free-form RPG needs to do something really clever, because I'm comparing its rules to no rules at all. Given a mature gaming group, no rules almost always win over scant rules.

SA · October 04, 2006, 10:45:13 AM

These days, I use four systems:

D20, although only when DMing Iron Heroes, as I am personally not a fan of the system. In my mind, the very idea of "levelling up" seems almost counter-intuitive to the idea of experience.

GURPS; I've only just started using it, and it can require a lot of bookwork, but its realism is unparalleled, and for the gritty, harsh games I often run it's an appropriate vehicle.

NOBILIS, which really only works for the specific setting it is presented with, but is also diceless without being ruleless. Besides, the setting is frickin' shweet!

And straight-up totally freeform diceless roleplaying, which may be necessary for Tammurand, as I doubt any ruleset will ever succeed in providing a framework for the insanity that the setting contains.

Elven Doritos · October 04, 2006, 11:10:25 AM

As (Xathan? Dementia? Aw,screw it) Xathan said, Mutants & Masterminds accomplishes this pretty well, and it's a relatively balanced system that allows for high-octane excitement and virtually any play style for fantasy and superheroic gaming-- it has its own limitations, but it's a solid system.

You can adjust the 'power level' of an individual game to fit your needs, whether you want low-powered realism or extremely high-powered (and I mean it-- you can do almost anything with enough of the character-creation points, including lift upwards of 50,000 tons, travel well beyond lightspeed, and much much more).

The combat system focuses on non-lethal combat, but it also features rules for lethal damage. It's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's something worth at least looking at.

Thanuir · October 22, 2006, 06:38:45 AM

Window is not particularly good at what it does. Shows its age.

Risus, by S. John Ross, is like Window, but better. T works for genres other than pure comedy with minor tweaks.

FATE, by the Evil Hat Productions, is a good, yet quite rules-light, game. Aspects are especially ingenius.

Anydie, by me, is another simple RPG.

As is Pair o' Dice. By "Shimeran" from RPG.net, whose name I don't know.

khyron1144 · August 20, 2008, 04:22:46 AM

I've played a lot of systems at least once.

Ones I'd go back to if I could find anyone to play with:

original World of Darkness. The new one's got pretty shiny books, but the old one has more books in my library and a better level of system memoorization on my part. I can honestly create a Vampire: the Masquerade character from memory without consulting books, until I need to actually check what level X in discipline Y does.

DC Heroes. It doesn't do any genre other than superheroes well, but superheroes it does really well. It's classless and skill-based. Power selection is so wide that it's not hard to adapt any character you're familiar with from comics into the system's terms, even non-DC ones (Spiderman has Cling and Precognition with certain limits for the Precognition, just to throw out a random example).

Pre-3e D&D. Okay, you either love it or hate it. I love it. Every unholy abomination from 3e is absent. While powergaming and min-maxing are possible, the insane character optimization that 3e's combination of feats, expected magic equipment per level, and open multiclassing encourage is gone.

SilvercatMoonpaw · August 20, 2008, 08:43:21 AM

I'm a little confused on something: Do you hate d20 because it uses a certain die type, or because you associate it with class-and-level systems? Mutants&Masterminds is d20 without classes and levels (it has something called Power Level, but that's just a way of determining relative ability between characters and is not an advancement scheme). Unfortunately this is the only system other than 3.5 D&D that I've played and so it's the only one I can recommend from experience.

In my opinion "story-centric" low-rules systems like Window miss an important point about collaborative story building and its story-centric nature: it's better not to define a character's capabilities too much until they actually come up. Having played very freeform games for quite a while now I can actually say that this is an important aspect of what happens: the situations that their original abilities could be used in never come up, but they have to respond to what does happen and often require some reworking of their capabilities. When said capabilities are predefined and unchangable you have lost any possibility of changing them to conform to the needs of the story. This is a limitation that I believe all games systems should be accutely aware of.

Another thing is that I actually like it when systems somehow define my character for me. I've started to find this whole "background your character out" mentality to be a little stifling: when I first meet a character in a story do I know anything about them? Probably not. Instead they unfold as the story progresses. I prefer to play my game characters that way because then I can fit them to the needs of the story rather than sitting around waiting for a situation to come up which I can tie my background to.

The Campaign Builder's Guild

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Systems other than d20

Lmns Crn

Xathan

Xathan

Soup Nazi

Captain Obvious

Lmns Crn

Epic Meepo

Lmns Crn

snakefing

Epic Meepo

SA

Elven Doritos

Thanuir

khyron1144

SilvercatMoonpaw