weapon stats

Kindling · May 16, 2011, 06:40:32 PM

Inspired by my fellow CBGers' various efforts, most of which are, by the way, great, I've decided to have a go at creating my own set of rules. For a long time I've held off doing this, as I love Iron Heroes so much I've never felt the need to "fix" it beyond the handful of minor house rules I use.

But just today I realised how odd the idea of hit points is.. so that's kind of the idea I'm basing my rules around - doing away with hit points.

So, my question is this; how to make weapons statistically different without damage being a part of things?

I have yet to decide on exactly how I'll be implementing armour, so they could have some kind of armour-penetration stat.
Also I'm thinking some lighter weapons might allow you to attack multiple times per round (probably only up to a maximum of 2 or 3)
My only real other idea, apart from obviously hafted weapons giving you reach, is to let you make an optional strength check to get an attack bonus. the different weapons would have different DCs for that strength check, and would give different bonuses if it succeeded, and some might give penalties for failure on the check.

Any other suggestions greatly appreciated.

Nomadic · May 16, 2011, 06:46:54 PM

It seems to me that some of the abstract concepts come across as a bit odd to you. You might consider completely rethinking things. For example you talk about weapons that can attack multiple times. There are alternatives to this. For example guildschool uses a rolling initiative where each time you take an action you add X to your initiative based on what you did and the person with the lowest current init goes next. Want to make a weapon able to strike very fast? Give it a low modifier so that it doesn't add much to your init. So a broadsword might have a speed of 8 and a dagger a speed of 2 which means the dagger can strike many more times than the broadsword on average.

I think what it comes down to is how simulationist you want to get? Abstract rules like those found in iron heroes are great for what they are designed for. But as you've noticed they have limitations. So the question becomes how real of a ruleset do you think you need and what can you fudge with abstract stuff like hitpoints.

Steerpike · May 16, 2011, 10:59:34 PM

Are you still using Iron Heroes as a base, or are you planning on scratch-building a system?

One option for a deadlier game without eliminating damage could be to implement the Vitality and Wound point system. I think if I were to start a new CE Iron Heroes game I might use Vitality/Wound. The other interesting variant is the Injury system, which still uses weapon damage but does away with hit points (it's pretty cool as well).

EDIT: The problem with eliminating damage (as opposed to hit points) in IH is how to deal with all of the class abilities that improve damage i.e. sneak attacks, berzerker rage stuff, archer and weapon master abilities, not to mention combat challenges and the like. Obviously if one eliminates hit points then armour DR and the Armiger class need to be rethought as well.

Now I really want to try an IH game using the Injury system...

Xathan · May 17, 2011, 01:12:45 AM

one thing that needs to be established is how you're going to handle damage - if not hit points, than how do you track damage? Once that's figured out, it's a lot easier to figure out how to make weapons different.

Kindling · May 17, 2011, 05:09:52 AM

@ Nomadic: Yeah, that rolling initiative thing from GuildSchool is pretty cool and I will think about maybe using something similar. It is still, essentially, just a way of saying one weapon is faster, the other is slower. What I'm asking for is other ways you might differentiate statistically between weapons other than speed, damage, and reach?
Also, with regards to realism vs. abstract, I'm definitely more in favour of the abstract. Obviously, as in any game, there will be elements of both (in my mind, complete abstraction would be as negative to fun as complete realism would be) but I'm definitely not crazy about realism as long as the game works and is enjoyable.

@ Steerpike: I'm going for something other than a modified form of Iron Heroes. I'd hesitate to say it's scratch-built, as it's more likely to end up an amalgam of ideas I like from already-existent systems, just put together to suit my tastes. Your points about how all the various feat and class abilities that increase damage are the main reasons I am creating something separate for this rather than trying to remove HP from Iron Heroes.
EDIT: Looking over the Injury rules again for the first time in a while, I don't actually see how they'd be that hard to implement in Iron Heroes. Possibly change the way that DR works from what they suggest and maybe give classes with higher HP a slight bonus to Fortitude or something, but then it would work fine. I might well try this myself next time I run a game.

@ Xathan: Well the initial idea is simply not to track damage - you are either alive and healthy enough to act or "out;" a state covering dead, unconscious, or otherwise unable to act due to wounds. Post-combat there will be some mechanic (as yet not properly thought out) to deal with whether you recover from being "out" or are actually dead.

Xathan · May 17, 2011, 10:54:53 AM

If you're not tracking damage, what determines if a character is alive and well or "out"? Some sort of saving throw-esque system? or something more complicated that I haven't thought of.

Either way, here's how I would handle - different weapons have different probabilities of either putting a player down or preventing the player from being put down. (daggers used to parry, greatswords hitting harder, etc). Those factors would distinguish them enough from each other to allow for a variety of weapons. Just a thought.

Steerpike · May 17, 2011, 12:52:15 PM

Yeah, I think the Injury system could be adapted to IH and vice versa without too much difficulty.

Other potential weapon values might include the weapon's accuracy, with smaller, lighter weapons probably having a higher accuracy rating and bigger, clumsier ones having a lower accuracy rating (to balance this, the lighter ones might be less 'deadly' i.e. less likely to put someone 'out').

For some reason the Mordheim injury mechanics are sticking in my head right now. In essence, in Mordheim (as in Warhammer/40k) everyone has a Wounds value, usually 1 but sometimes 2 or 3 (for warband leaders and big monsters, generally). Each time an attack hit you and dealt damage, you lost a wound. When you were at 0 wounds, each hit that dealt damage forced you to roll a d6 on a table. On a 1-2 you were just knocked down and had to forfeit your move next turn to stand up. On a 3-4 you were stunned and lost a full turn, or something like that. On a 5-6 you were 'out of action.' After each battle each 'out of action' character had to roll on the injury table to see if they were dead or suffered a head wound or an arm wound or whatnot.

Since there were rolls to hit and to wound, weapons didn't have damage values in Mordheim (again as in Warhammer/40k). Instead they did things like boosting your strength (your chance to wound someone), your liklihood to take someone out of action, your likelihood to penetrate armour (handled as a saving throw), etc.

The rules are quite simple and are available as a free PDF, and may be worth a cursory look. While Mordheim is a tabletop skrimish game it also has a lot of RPG elements - your characters acquired experience, had to purchase their own equipment with in-game currency they could find or win, and similar features.

EDIT: So generally weapon characteristics beyond speed, reach, and damage: armour penetration, deadliness (perhaps akin to a critical hit chance), accuracy.

Superfluous Crow · May 18, 2011, 07:38:12 AM

I had a combat system in the works at one point that tried to adress the common issue with weapons being two similar and only truly set apart by their magical properties. I wouldn't call the system simulationist, but it did include a few features that are uncommon in systems such as D&D.

Reach: this is already included on your list, but you can further than IH and D&D and treat swords as longer than knives. If you have some distance between yourself and the opponent can be put to good use, but get close and the dagger (or a fist even) is a far more effective weapon.
Heft: instead of thinking in damage, it might be pertinent to think in strength. A bigger weapon isn't more deadly to the touch, it just allows for a warrior to employ his own strength more effectively.
Balance: If your game includes any kind of maneuver/token system a well-balanced weapon will be considerably more effective, perhaps reducing the cost (or just not add any penalties). An unbalanced weapon on the other hand must be used more cautiously and with a good grip.
Drain: Swinging a big or complicated weapon is tiring and a Drain score might impose fatigue after a time. (perhaps an accumulative penalty to a fatigue save).
Penetration: Ability to go through armor, plain and simple.
Parry: Some weapons are just better for defensive purposes.

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weapon stats

Kindling

Nomadic

Steerpike

Xathan

Kindling

Xathan

Steerpike

Superfluous Crow