Vampires? Nope!

SDragon · November 14, 2006, 11:20:01 PM

Quote from: DeeLI like a good debunking. That was not a good debunking. That was debunking lite. That was setting up an idea of vampirism suitable for a child of six, and making that the target. Everyone who thinks at length about vampires - even just as an idle exercise - comes to that conclusion, although I'll grant you they don't usually do any involved math. Granted it's just an article, not the book itself, but still. Petit debunking is petty thinking. We can do better.

I have seen a number of interpretations of vampirism here. If we are to debunk the idea of vampirism, we must establish which theory we shall employ. (For our purpose, we shall not examine those people who are merely psychologically impelled to behave like vampires. We're talking about the supernatural version.)

That is, we might be. I am hereby offering a challenge to the CBG. One of the basic principles of science is disprovability; I propose we come up with a model of supernatural vampirism that might exist in the real world, and then disprove it.

Any takers?

the problem with this is, once we disprove our model vampire, we'll end up altering it to take into account what we used as evidence against it. then we'll just have to disprove it again. then it'll be altered. then disproved. then altered. then disproved. the lathered. then rinsed. then repeated yet again.

literature, i believe, has done a fair enough job at this already. why do we need to attempt the entire proccess by ourselves?

CYMRO · November 14, 2006, 11:45:42 PM

Costas Efthimiou. How do we know he is not a vampire using a traditional misdirection ploy to get us to let our guard down? The vampires do not want us to believe in them, it makes their job easier in the modern world.
Tricky little blood-sucking buggerers.

DeeL · November 14, 2006, 11:46:57 PM

Ummm... because... it will be pretty?

Iono, I'm tired. And debunking like that makes me tired all over. Maybe it's just time to take a nap.

brainface · November 14, 2006, 11:47:37 PM

when we get to the model of vampire that cannot be empirically disproved, we will have IRREVOCABLY proved the existance of vampires. And then we'll get to buy lots of garlic and never sleep soundly again.

beejazz · November 15, 2006, 12:28:44 AM

Quote from: DeeLAny takers?

A skin condition coupled with mental illness. No. Really.

There's a disorder of the blood that causes tissue damage on exposure to light. Folk remedy is bloodsucking. Compulsive habits (can't enter home uninvited, etc.) from mental illness. Corpse mutillation from similar mental illness (Had a brother who died of the illness. Kept the corpse on hand. When he saw it lying about all staked and decapitated, he killed himself. Probably self-immolation.)

And there's a sort of rudimentary vampire story. Supernatural elements might just be seepage from other floklore, or maybe just a convenient swarm of bats in the basement.

Wrexham3 · November 15, 2006, 06:35:50 AM

Quote from: DeeLThat is, we might be. I am hereby offering a challenge to the CBG. One of the basic principles of science is disprovability; I propose we come up with a model of supernatural vampirism that might exist in the real world, and then disprove it.

Or empirically disprove mathematics instead.

CYMRO · November 15, 2006, 02:44:25 PM

Quote from: Wrexham3
Quote from: DeeLThat is, we might be. I am hereby offering a challenge to the CBG. One of the basic principles of science is disprovability; I propose we come up with a model of supernatural vampirism that might exist in the real world, and then disprove it.

Or empirically disprove mathematics instead.

Costas Efthimiou's erroneous use of the Persian chessboard is agood place to start.

SDragon · November 15, 2006, 08:50:26 PM

Quote from: Epic MeepoIf even half of the folklore about villagers exhuming and staking bodies is true, then the same would be true of vampires. Granted, vampires don't die of old age, but back in the day, there was no shortage of superstitious peasants willing to dig stuff up and mutiliate it.

my question is, does this make vampires mortal? personally, i say yes, it does. if all those acts did grievous bodily harm (possibly even incapacitating bodily harm), but did not kill them, then they would be immortal. immortal, to me, means that one cannot die. mortal, to me, means that you can die.

any thoughts?

CYMRO · November 15, 2006, 08:59:28 PM

Quoteimmortal, to me, means that one cannot die. mortal, to me, means that you cannot die.

any thoughts?

Actually, mortal means you can die to most of us. ;)

Darkxarth · November 15, 2006, 09:01:54 PM

Quote from: Oxford English Dictionary (oed.com)The quality or condition of being immortal; exemption from death or annihilation; endless life or existence; eternity; perpetuity

Immortality means that, if kept in good health, one will live forever. Often, immortality is accompanied by immunity by mortal diseases and poisons, but not necessarily.[/quote]
Technically the Tolkien one wasn't an actual quote, just a summary of his explanations.

CYMRO · November 15, 2006, 09:07:28 PM

Quote from: Sidekick Boy
Quote from: Oxford English Dictionary (oed.com)The quality or condition of being immortal; exemption from death or annihilation; endless life or existence; eternity; perpetuity
Immortality means that, if kept in good health, one will live forever. Often, immortality is accompanied by immunity by mortal diseases and poisons, but not necessarily.

It ain't immortality if it has caveats.
You might as well say we are all immortal, unless something kills us...

Darkxarth · November 15, 2006, 09:12:20 PM

Okay, forgetting real life for a minute...

In D&D, everyone has a maximum age limit, right? So, immortality just means there is no "dying of old age". The only way to die then would be through a more violent means, such as: disease, poison, injury, disintegration, ticked off a god, etc.
Thus, immortality is different from invincibility.

CYMRO · November 15, 2006, 09:15:19 PM

Quote from: Sidekick BoyOkay, forgetting real life for a minute...

In D&D, everyone has a maximum age limit, right? So, immortality just means there is no "dying of old age". The only way to die then would be through a more violent means, such as: disease, poison, injury, disintegration, ticked off a god, etc.
Thus, immortality is different from invincibility.

Indefinite lifespan, maybe, but still not immortal if they can die.

Darkxarth · November 15, 2006, 09:20:54 PM

Okay, clearly that is where our disagreement lies.

To me...
Immortal = Indefinite lifespan
Invincible = Cannot Die
Invulnerable = Cannot be Injured

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but to you...
Immortal = Cannot Die

SDragon · November 15, 2006, 09:24:37 PM

(my original definition was edited, as pointed out)

Quote from: CYMRO ARBITER BRASSICI
Quote from: Sidekick BoyOkay, forgetting real life for a minute...

In D&D, everyone has a maximum age limit, right? So, immortality just means there is no "dying of old age". The only way to die then would be through a more violent means, such as: disease, poison, injury, disintegration, ticked off a god, etc.
Thus, immortality is different from invincibility.

Indefinite lifespan, maybe, but still not immortal if they can die.

this is my point exactly. going with OED, "exempt from death" is the same as "cannot die". going with dictionary.com, "unending life" exludes dying (or, in other words, the ending of life).

indefinate lifespan? yes. immortal? no.

and yes, invincibility is different from immortality; invincibility means you cannot be harmed (which includes not being able to die), whereas immortality means you cannot die (which does not include any inability to be harmed). in other words, you can break every single bone in an immortal's body, and mash up their brain until it has the consistency of thin pea soup- and i'm sure they'll feel the pain on that one- but you cannot kill them.

edit-

immortal = cannot die
invincible = cannot be harmed
invunerable = cannot be harmed by (IOW, is not vulnerable to) one or more specific method

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