The Campaign Builder's Guild

This question was originally started by Señor Leetz in his Arga thread, but I wanted to expand on it without derailing his thread. So far, the two posts that related to it are located below.  So what do you think? Do you like the Dying Earth Subgenre? What do you like or dislike about it?

Quote from: LordVreeg

Quote from: Steampunk Knight
Now this is coming from the perspective of someone who has not yet had a chance to read your setting, but I would say drop it. I have never found it fun to read about or play in worlds that are dying, unless the goal of the adventure is to save said world. Now you have said that you were moving away from it already. If it doesn't feel right I wouldn't try to force it. Then again this is just me rambling on, but when I get a free moment I will sit down and review your setting.

I have to disagree here.
Dying earth and the shadow of the torturer come to mind, but there are hundreds more.  He'll, in some ways, middle earth was dying, and least for the demi humans...dying welds are pretty fascinating for me, at least.

So what makes it fascinating to you?

Surely all worlds are dying in one way or another?

The prospect of oblivion, the juxtapositions of decadence and austerity that often results, the delicious bleakness and melancholy, the combination of intense strangeness and haunting familiarity, the macabre gloom, the interplay of futility and hope.

As a GM, I implement this trope when I can conceive of a successful effort by the PCs at great personal cost to reverse the planet's fortunes or at least save its inhabitants.

The last campaign I ever ran in Dystopia involved an attempt by the players to infiltrate Penumbra and destroy the very seat of the IoValde's power, thus saving the world from Anathema, the fourth and final member of the cosmic godhead.

They failed. The world ended. There are no more adventures in Dystopia.

The cycle is an important concept in many relgions and in psychology.  (as is breaking a cycle)
we talk of political cycles, voting cycles, weather cycles, seasonal cycles...hell, it is everywhere.

And some of the best poetry and music deal with the inevitable end. Sometimes, as in Elric's case, the dying of the old world gives birth to something eelse, sometimes not.  But pathos is a powerful energy, and the idea of creatures living through the ending part of a story, dealing with the part of it they can, instills a huge amount of pathos to a setting.  Even the actions of the Gods are different...

I enjoy "the World is Slowly Dieing" campaign settings.

Steampunk Knight, no worries- I'm here with you in preferring gumdrops and glitter and hope and PROGRESS! to a glum dying world. See, e.g. Gloria. http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,65170.html; ebil http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,72315.html; Tatterdemalion http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,74722.html

that being said- Steerpike and China Mieville do it really well- they execute the dying earth genre and the gothic decay in a flavorful macabre fashion that excites the senses. For the genre to be done well, I think, it needs a dash of the fantastic and the grotesquerie so as to raise the ID in the soul, to excite the sense and to titillate, like a good horror novel--except whereas many horror novels focus on psychology or on pure shock, the dying world genre excites the feeling of existential dread that one also achieves from a good Lovecraft Novel. It makes one think of survival, of the self, of the tribe and it gets at people's primal instincts.

I like dying worlds.
I am honestly tired of the whole "fight the Great Evil"/"save the cheerleader, save the world" mantra. You do not have to save the world to be a hero. Everything does not have to be part of the greater cosmic scheme. The actions of ordinary people, anyone really, matter too.

The dying earth is as valid a premise as the renaissance earth, the industrial earth, or any other premise in between. These are simply ideas and periods that fascinate humans.
You choose to create a dying world because it helps bring about a specific tone that you desire for your setting. In this case, there will be a general sense of desperation-turned-passion and the characters often have to come face to face with the inevitablity of decline.
As a thought experiment, I feel it's interesting to explore how humans (and inhumans) would react when their whole foundation teeters on the edge of an abyss. Would we hang on to past glories? Turn on each other? Make the most of the little time left to us? Do we put our trust in the afterlife(s) promised to us by oh-so-many prophets?

Humans, as beings, are fascinating not because we are rational, but because we are irrational. The dying world is one of the few genres that actually explores human nature beyond the capability of traditional fiction.  

I can understand if it doesn't appeal to you (or a hypothetical someone), though. The danger with DE settings is that they have a tendency to revel in their own bleakness to the point where they forget there is anything good left in the world. For all the decay and ashes there needs to be elements of beauty and life to balance it out or it all devolves into rote horror.

Obviously, I like dying world settings. But I'm of the opinion that its a broad genre, and not all DWs are, or should be, presented in the same way.

Arga, I would say, is not so much about stopping the world from dying, but it is more of a mechanic that allows many different things to make sense. In my case, the dying of Arga represenst the natural decay and entropy of things as opposed to something that has been deliberately done and lets me play around with things like lots of dead empires, entropic magic (Phaen), and in my case a feeling of ruggedness and danger.

I do agree with SC in that some DW settings can be bleak to the point of "Who cares", as it seems like the ending of the story has already been written.

I don't mind "dying world" type settings, but I too often prefer more "hope and progress!" oriented settings. That said, being a fan of putting everything together means I don't mind putting the two of these together, as well. In Asura, I go less for the bleak overt "dying" motif but use a lot of similar imagery to create a sense that everything is spiraling out of control. However, the demise of one dying world will only lead to the birth of another, hopefully better, one. I like to think this is fitting, given the creators-preservers-destroyers motif that is frequent in the Asura cosmos.

Quote from: Steerpike
The prospect of oblivion, the juxtapositions of decadence and austerity that often results, the delicious bleakness and melancholy, the combination of intense strangeness and haunting familiarity, the macabre gloom, the interplay of futility and hope.

That is very will said.

Quote from: Sleipnir
As a GM, I implement this trope when I can conceive of a successful effort by the PCs at great personal cost to reverse the planet's fortunes or at least save its inhabitants.

The last campaign I ever ran in Dystopia involved an attempt by the players to infiltrate Penumbra and destroy the very seat of the IoValde's power, thus saving the world from Anathema, the fourth and final member of the cosmic godhead.

They failed. The world ended. There are no more adventures in Dystopia.

See that is a trope that I am all for. Yes the world can end, but there is still a chance, even if it is a small one to stop it from happening.

Quote from: LordVreeg
The cycle is an important concept in many relgions and in psychology.  (as is breaking a cycle)
we talk of political cycles, voting cycles, weather cycles, seasonal cycles...hell, it is everywhere.

And some of the best poetry and music deal with the inevitable end. Sometimes, as in Elric's case, the dying of the old world gives birth to something eelse, sometimes not.  But pathos is a powerful energy, and the idea of creatures living through the ending part of a story, dealing with the part of it they can, instills a huge amount of pathos to a setting.  Even the actions of the Gods are different...

See I don't have a problem with cycles. Yes the cycle may end and begin again, but it continues on.  My dislike of with parts of the Subgenre is with the stories where no matter what you do, or how hard you try there is no way to stop the end.

Much like Kirk, I don't believe in a no-win scenario.

Quote from: Light Dragon
Steampunk Knight, no worries- I'm here with you in preferring gumdrops and glitter and hope and PROGRESS! to a glum dying world. See, e.g. Gloria. http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,65170.html; ebil http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,72315.html; Tatterdemalion http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,74722.html

that being said- Steerpike and China Mieville do it really well- they execute the dying earth genre and the gothic decay in a flavorful macabre fashion that excites the senses. For the genre to be done well, I think, it needs a dash of the fantastic and the grotesquerie so as to raise the ID in the soul, to excite the sense and to titillate, like a good horror novel--except whereas many horror novels focus on psychology or on pure shock, the dying world genre excites the feeling of existential dread that one also achieves from a good Lovecraft Novel. It makes one think of survival, of the self, of the tribe and it gets at people's primal instincts.

When I get a free movement I will look at the links that you have provided. There are so many settings on here, it is a huge task to read them all, but I am attempting to do so.

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
I like dying worlds.
I am honestly tired of the whole "fight the Great Evil"/"save the cheerleader, save the world" mantra. You do not have to save the world to be a hero. Everything does not have to be part of the greater cosmic scheme. The actions of ordinary people, anyone really, matter too.

The dying earth is as valid a premise as the renaissance earth, the industrial earth, or any other premise in between. These are simply ideas and periods that fascinate humans.
You choose to create a dying world because it helps bring about a specific tone that you desire for your setting. In this case, there will be a general sense of desperation-turned-passion and the characters often have to come face to face with the inevitablity of decline.
As a thought experiment, I feel it's interesting to explore how humans (and inhumans) would react when their whole foundation teeters on the edge of an abyss. Would we hang on to past glories? Turn on each other? Make the most of the little time left to us? Do we put our trust in the afterlife(s) promised to us by oh-so-many prophets?

Humans, as beings, are fascinating not because we are rational, but because we are irrational. The dying world is one of the few genres that actually explores human nature beyond the capability of traditional fiction. 

I can understand if it doesn't appeal to you (or a hypothetical someone), though. The danger with DE settings is that they have a tendency to revel in their own bleakness to the point where they forget there is anything good left in the world. For all the decay and ashes there needs to be elements of beauty and life to balance it out or it all devolves into rote horror.

Your right you, don't need to be the part of a greater cosmic scheme. It is when the actions are somewhat futile it was I really don't like. It is a personal dislike of mine, but at the same time I do happen to like stories about how people face death. It is a little hypocritical I know. But even in death, a person has still had a chance to do something that will continue on past their end.

I think it is the bleakness that is what I dislike the about some of those worlds. No happiness or joy. You are correct that you really have to balance all of the elements in order to avoid that.

Quote from: Señor Leetz
Obviously, I like dying world settings. But I'm of the opinion that its a broad genre, and not all DWs are, or should be, presented in the same way.

Arga, I would say, is not so much about stopping the world from dying, but it is more of a mechanic that allows many different things to make sense. In my case, the dying of Arga represenst the natural decay and entropy of things as opposed to something that has been deliberately done and lets me play around with things like lots of dead empires, entropic magic (Phaen), and in my case a feeling of ruggedness and danger.

I do agree with SC in that some DW settings can be bleak to the point of "Who cares", as it seems like the ending of the story has already been written.

Interesting, I really need to sit down a review your setting.

Quote from: sparkletwist
I don't mind "dying world" type settings, but I too often prefer more "hope and progress!" oriented settings. That said, being a fan of putting everything together means I don't mind putting the two of these together, as well. In Asura, I go less for the bleak overt "dying" motif but use a lot of similar imagery to create a sense that everything is spiraling out of control. However, the demise of one dying world will only lead to the birth of another, hopefully better, one. I like to think this is fitting, given the creators-preservers-destroyers motif that is frequent in the Asura cosmos.

Again another setting I have to sit down and read through.

Quote from: Superfluous Crow
<snip>
I can understand if it doesn't appeal to you (or a hypothetical someone), though. The danger with DE settings is that they have a tendency to revel in their own bleakness to the point where they forget there is anything good left in the world. For all the decay and ashes there needs to be elements of beauty and life to balance it out or it all devolves into rote horror.

This. I can agree with LD, Steampunk Knight, and Sparkle that "hope and progress" are my more preferred elements of design, but I'm careful not to dichotomize the two. I like having mixtures of "yes, there's progress being made," and "the world as we know it is dying," to really liven up a setting. I think it's important in latter-affiliated settings that the bleakness and decay doesn't override the experience and create a sense of hopelessness. I'm a sucker for the sappy endings, but even I want there to be losses involved in getting there.

That said, my opinion of Dying Worlds is decidedly mixed. I'm generally slow to warm up to them... I think far too many of them revolve around the idea that the world is cast in shades of grey and black and brown; I want a dying world with color and vibrancy and a general lack of the term "wastes" or "wastelands" (I'm guilty of this myself).

Quote from: WeaveI think far too many of them revolve around the idea that the world is cast in shades of grey and black and brown; I want a dying world with color and vibrancy and a general lack of the term "wastes" or "wastelands" (I'm guilty of this myself).

I'm trying for some of this in the Cadaverous Earth... not sure if I always succeed.  I want patches of colour - bilious greens and sanguine crimsons, anyway.

@Steerpike: I always saw the CE as a "dead Earth" settings, as opposed to "dying Earth."

Yeah, I guess that's sort of the idea!  "This is a world no longer merely dwindling, no longer dying, but rather become a great corpse peopled by maggots and worms, the fester-spawned parasites of a Cadaverous Earth..."

But it's still closer to a dying earth style world than any other fantasy sub-genre, I'd say.