Removing the "Workday" from Gaming: How?

Xeviat · November 15, 2011, 08:55:30 PM

One of the faults of many games, be they D&D, WoW, and others, is the requirement of non-character based elements to be aligned to maintain balance. D&D has magic items, which need to be gained at the right time lest they overpower or underpower a character. D&D also has daily powers, and WoW has long cooldown powers, which end up requiring a set number of encounters or play time to achieve balance; in 4E D&D, a level 19 character has 4 daily powers from his class/path, not to mention items, which makes a single fight in a day "easier" than it could/should be with the use of all dailies.[note]This topic mostly deals with D&D, specifically 4th Edition. I drifted away from D&D for a while, but it's familiarity drew me and most of my players back. The thread will also include a lot of game theory talk, which is the majority of the purpose here. Please, no "don't play D&D" solutions, though I don't really expect that from this group. I brought the topic here because I feel it will be a better discussion than what the WotC forums may give me.[/note]

I feel I have found a way to deal with the magic item issue, but I'm not exactly certain how to deal with the daily issue. I have some ideas, but I wanted to discuss the issue broadly before getting down to the nitty-gritty. What do daily effects do for the game? How do they make the game better? I know how they make it worse, but what would I be removing by severely limiting them?

My rough draft for modifying the system is this:
- Encounter attack powers are pooled together and have a resource tied to their use. Some action will generate this resource.
- Daily attack powers are pooled together and become collectively once per encounter.

My justification is simple, but requires a few assumptions. At 9th level, a character has 3 encounters and 3 dailies (they cap off at 4 and 4 at level 19). They are supposed to face 3 to 5 encounters in a day. Thus, if someone parses their powers out, they can use 1 daily per encounter for the majority of their encounters. If we assume a standard encounter takes something like 7 rounds (which seems to be the timer I've encountered on fights that go well), we're dealing with 3 at-wills, 3 encounters, and 1 daily per fight.

If a character starts with 1 pp (power point) at the start of a fight, they can generate a point with every at-will they use. This could create a play style of alternating encounter - at-will - encounter - at-will ... or someone could build up some points for a combo across rounds; I would create some mechanic to "pay back" a character if they end the fight with pp.

I would also want that daily use per encounter to be keyed on sometype of threashold, so that characters have to earn it and not blow it at the start of the fight; it would be something like a Final Fantasy Limit Break.

Does anyone have thoughts on this?

beejazz · November 16, 2011, 10:52:59 AM

I always thought a better power organization system for a 4e style game would be at wills, auras/stances, and rituals. Just ditching per encounter and per day would go a long way towards removing any ideal number of encounters.

So there are powers that can be used at will (as opposed to modifications of standard attacks, so you can't pile damage and effects like you can in 3x sometimes... two weapon sneak attacks for example). Then there will be auras/stances you can only use so many of at once (so you start only being able to maintain one aura/stance, maybe one more every five levels) and that will sort of handle any and all (combat) spells with durations too. Rituals would just take a long time to use. They can be any powerful thing you want wizards to have that might break combat, or they can be things you want clever mages to be able to use in a fight they prepared for.

This might be a little more drastic a change than you're willing to implement though, if you're looking to use 4e's core and all the powers more or less as written.

SabrWolf · November 16, 2011, 05:28:06 PM

Just thoughts from a relatively inexperienced 4e DM:

I'm intrigued by the "Power Point" mechanic you're toying with for the At-Wills and Encounter powers. I find it interesting from a design point of view. However, will the players find it fun to play with? I'd say you should test that system out (outside of your campaign; part of a one-shot game?) before you implement it in your campaign.

About the Daily's however; I think you're going about your ideas the wrong way for this aspect of combat. Dailies usually give you a lasting ability (stances, persistent effects, auras, etc.) that you'll want to use early in combat to get the best bang for your buck. I'm not sure how you can fix that part of the system with the mentality you seem to take to the dailies (that if you use them too soon you're wasting them). Since it seems to be an erroneous assumption, you may want to rethink your stance on the dailies. Then again, maybe I'm not understanding how you want to treat the dailies.

Superfluous Crow · November 17, 2011, 02:28:52 AM

I can't relate this directly to a 4E mechanic, but I have toyed with balancing powers by giving players a fixed amount of "power slots" (or whatever) and then having them decide whether they want to fill those up with passive powers immediately or save them for instantaneous offensive powers.

Let me provide an example. This system was originally designed for a telekinetic class. He had, say, 5 slots. They were always there. Using a power didn't remove the slot or leave it unusable until the next day. Instead, each slot just represented a discrete amount of the power he had available at any one point in time. Let us say he has two powers: a telekinetic deflection field and the ability to pummel a guy from afar with pure force. Now, he can use as many slots as he wants on the defensive power, but the more slots he uses on the deflection the less power he would have left to attack with. Say he wants to attack two opponents or hit an opponent who is outside his range; he'd have to give up on a bit of his shield so that he had more energy for offensive powers.

This simple mechanic (which is remniscent of both aura/stance systems and power points) can be regulated and modified in a number of ways.
You could make it so that freeing up power slots takes more or less time to change how quickly a player can adapt his combat style. You could even have passive powers/feats modifying this!
Another thing I implemented was the "burning" of slots. Essentially, some abilities allowed you to delete a slot (temporarily) in return for a more powerful effect. I found this an interesting and intuitive take on the overcharging paradigm of spells and abilities.

Hope this is of some use even though it wasn't specified using 4E terminology.

Xathan · November 17, 2011, 01:20:33 PM

Quote from: SabrWolf

About the Daily's however; I think you're going about your ideas the wrong way for this aspect of combat. Dailies usually give you a lasting ability (stances, persistent effects, auras, etc.) that you'll want to use early in combat to get the best bang for your buck. I'm not sure how you can fix that part of the system with the mentality you seem to take to the dailies (that if you use them too soon you're wasting them). Since it seems to be an erroneous assumption, you may want to rethink your stance on the dailies. Then again, maybe I'm not understanding how you want to treat the dailies.

Going to second this viewpoint - most Dailies function at their best as an opener, not a closer, to combat, though their are exceptions to that rule. One thought would be dividing dailies into two categories - those that have a lasting effect are openers and points to use them generate between encounters and degenerate each round, while those that have a more immediate, non lasting impact use the limit break system you described.

Of course, I'm of the opinion that the 'don't use 4e' option is the best - and with the changes you're proposing, you might as well stat out a compete overhaul of the system rather than trying to tweak. Since you're a fellow fan of MnM, I'd love to see a hybrid system (possibly using the system you describe for daily, encounter, and at will powers) that brings 4e hitpoints and abilities with MnM flexibility and less grid-style combat together.

Barring that, another option to consider would be bringing many 4e classes in line with psionics (all at will but boost able) might be easier to manage and solve your dislikes more easily.

Xeviat · November 18, 2011, 12:49:20 AM

I'm aware most work best as an opener, and I just don't really like that paradigm. My idea for dailies would be each character would have a pool of the dailies they know. Once per encounter, they can use one of those dailies. I also like the idea of encounters scaling as you gain levels and letting you learn more, but not getting more per encounter. You'd be limited to 4 encounters and 1 daily per encounter, but they'd be drawn from pools.

Xathan, doing the psionic pp style thing is actually something I would love to do. I have many ways in mind to do it; characters start with 2 at-wills, and they gain a new at-will every so often so they can develop and progress. Then, possibly, instead of each having their own boost individually, they could learn different boosts. Or just do it straight up like Psionics.

I am thinking of M&M type stuff. One idea would be to have a D&D style character generation (certain number of points for ability scores, certain number of points for other things, attack and defenses go up with level).

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Removing the "Workday" from Gaming: How?

Xeviat

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SabrWolf

Superfluous Crow

Xathan

Xeviat