Xathan's Brain

Xathan · November 25, 2011, 12:43:21 AM

[note=The Title]From IRC: SabrWolf: [the thread's title is] somewhat unfitting, given that your brain makes entirely no sense and is completely unorganized. So much so that a thread with even the slightest inkling of organization would give the uninformed a false impression of your brain.[/note]While working on Terra Macabre, I've had a ton of ideas – literally about 4 pages in Word – that fall into one of three categories: those that could not possibly fit into Terra Macabre, those that could fit but would radically alter the setting to the point where I'd have to start from scratch, and those that are mechanical/random in nature so wouldn't work. In short, the Xathan's list is a bunch of things that I'm going to be working on intently once I get Terra Macabre to a place where it's "Beta Complete" (something I'll be delving into later) and in the meantime would like to hear thoughts on and get to bouncing ideas around with the CBG so they can develop and get OUT OF MY HEAD so I can work on Terra Macabre more. :P This thread is going to be my "Random Idea Dumping Ground", sort of a staging zone for my random ideas and a place to put them while I focus on one primary project instead of my typical habit of just starting something new whenever a new idea pops into my head. :P

Anyway, here's the projects I've come up with:

Xeno Fantaseum: A closer to traditional fantasy setting than I've done in a long, long time – no elves in space, no non-Euclidean geometry, no cystalpunk. It will have elves. It will have lizardfolk. It will have giants. Here there be dragons. It will be inspired a lot by skyrim because I've been spending such a huge amount of time playing that damn game. What, then, makes it original or worth the time where there are dozens of other fantasy settings out there? Well, as the name implies, I'm bringing in a stronger element of the 'alien' and 'otherworldly' to this setting, providing (hopefully) unique takes on classic races/creatures and tropes to make them a bit strange and weird by our standards, but not the point where we get to the Incomprehensible Extremes you find in Terra Macabre. Secondly, many fantasy settings draw from a couple different mythologies – celtic in the instance of Cad Gaelor, Greco-Roman for Agra for two examples from our own forums off the top of my head and China/Japan for Rokugan for an example from a published setting. Xeno Fantaseum will draw its primary mythological basis from Judeo-Christian (including Islamic) mythology, including the faith that Judaism evolved from. In addition,

I'm going to be going high enough magic where you couldn't just plop XF in mideval Europe and adding enough aesthetic twists to keep it from being insertable into any other fantasy setting. That's all I'm going to post for now, otherwise it'll become irresistible to start developing it into a full fledged setting. In addition, inspired by Skyrim, I'm going to focus almost entirely on the interactions of 2 or 3 nations as opposed to the whole world, and leave it up to the DM to create entirely new parts of the globe if they so desire.

X-20: Reading Xeviat's thread's about his adaptation of 4E and looking over some old 3e/new Pathfinder rulebooks have made me nostalgic for the more classic, DnD style system. Designed to be compatible with almost any fantasy setting, the intent here is to combine my favorite elements of OGL d20 (which will be the backbone of this system), d20 modern, ideas drawn from 4E, and aspects (I made a pun!) of FATE, including Aspects and Consequences, with a dash of the flexibility of Green Ronin's True 20 (If you like MnM, True 20 is kind of a more classic class-based version of the same system) as well as the variability and level of awesome from Asura (the system, not the setting, since I can't make a setting with that type of awesome without just remaking Asura Xathan style – would have to use a different kind of awesome. :P)

It's called X-20 because it will be designed with Xeno Fantaseum in mind (Plus, my username is Xathan), but I'm not restricting it to that setting – if I do this right, it'd be completely possible to run Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Cadaverous Earth, Jade Stage, Agra, or really any Fantasy Setting within it, but especially those that are designed for use with existing d20 systems.

Terra Macabre IRC games: I shouldn't need to explain these – and once I get TM Beta Complete, I figure these will be the best way to expand TM.

The Micro-Settings and Setting Concepts: I have a ton of ideas that go in two directions: Settings that would not merit the full attention of a setting like Terra Macabre or Xeno Fantaseum but I feel are interesting enough to at least get a couple dozen hours of work in on to get them to Beta Complete, and ideas that I have no particular setting to attach to, but would love to develop in a vacuum to cannibalize for other settings or just for fun. These are, in no particular order:

Some of these include..

Atlas Sunk, a setting inspired by Light Dragon's Gloria, Bioshock, Dresden Codak, and Fallout 3 and the setting of a brief IRC game I'm running that I'd like to do a bit more with.

When the West Was Weird, a fantasy western setting that draws from my last attempt at such a setting with some elements stolen from other examples of this rather underused genre and a second setting to use X-20.

The Mirrored Dream, which will actually be a subsetting of Terra Macabre and be that setting's equivalent to H.P. Lovecraft's Dream Lands.

World of the Living Dead, a setting that takes place after the "zombie"/undead apocalypse and focuses on humanity surviving within a post-apocalyptic wasteland...with ZOMBIES!

Verdant Apocalypse, a revival of an old setting of mine where we invert the typical post-apocalyptic wasteland idea and instead it's a post-apocalypse that deals with plant and animal life going haywire to bring about the End of the World (TM).

Mages at War, just a fun look at one way military technology and strategy could develop within a classic tolkienian/vangcian fantasy world.

Aftermath, a style of gameplay that takes tabletop gaming and turns it into RPG where you're trying to build and unify a nation from the ashes of a Dying Earth.

Nightmare's Stirring, a horror setting where slashers, demonic possessions, and the other tropes of the classic horror films are real, and men and women across the globe fight a secret war against them – a war they are losing.

Dystopia Denied, a setting in the near future that takes elements of Cyberpunk, Orwell's 1984, and the Matrix where groups of individuals have learned to tap into their innate [Power Source] abilities and wage a secret war against the omnipresent System.

That's where I am right now. More will be added later on, and any and all thoughts are appreciated. :D

Kalontas · November 25, 2011, 07:30:41 AM

Quote from: Xathan Of Many WorldsSecondly, many fantasy settings draw from a couple different mythologies – celtic in the instance of Cad Gaelor, Greco-Roman for Agra for two examples from our own forums off the top of my head and China/Japan for Rokugan for an example from a published setting. Xeno Fantaseum will draw its primary mythological basis from Judeo-Christian (including Islamic) mythology, including the faith that Judaism evolved from. In addition,

I'm going to be going high enough magic where you couldn't just plop XF in mideval Europe and adding enough aesthetic twists to keep it from being insertable into any other fantasy setting. That's all I'm going to post for now, otherwise it'll become irresistible to start developing it into a full fledged setting. In addition, inspired by Skyrim, I'm going to focus almost entirely on the interactions of 2 or 3 nations as opposed to the whole world, and leave it up to the DM to create entirely new parts of the globe if they so desire.

Reading that kind of stuff makes me think Olam is not really so unique in any aspect other than it being my response to the overwhelming bleakness of most settings. I mean, it shares the big Hellenic influence with Agra, and now it would share the Judeochristian stuff with XF. And then I remember that making it a "distorted fantasy Earth" makes it nothing more than an offspring of Forgotten Realms.

That makes me realise I have to work harder on elements that make it different. On elements that wouldn't make it "Forgotten Realms, just done through my lens" or "Agra, if its author based more parts on other countries". It makes me feel I have to mix the cultural elements harder if I want to make it special.

Otherwise... ahem... my thought on this? Eh... cool stuff?

sparkletwist · November 25, 2011, 06:14:50 PM

Quite a few interesting ideas here! :D

As I'm sure you (and quite a few others around here) are quite aware, I'm all about mashing things together. Most of these ideas are interesting little flashes of inspiration, but probably wouldn't stand themselves as full fledged settings-- at least, not without more development, such as, oh, mashing them together with some of these other little kernels of inspiration. After enough mashing, something really good will probably result. So I'd encourage mashing together wherever possible, for example, the world of Atlas Sunk could be people escaping from the Verdant Apocalypse or the Aftermath, or maybe something like Nightmare's Stirring is taking place back east at the same time as When the West Was Weird, or, well, you get the idea.

When it comes to systems, though, I'm a little less liberal with the mashing-together. A lot of times, you only end up introducing redundant mechanics, or severely complicating things that should be simple. For example, if you take a basic FATE-like system, and tack on a bunch of crunchy and precise combat, you end up with... well, my initial, snarky response would've been that you end up with Burning Wheel... but what I mean is, you end up with something that feels too mushy and full of FATE-like tools to be truly simulationist, but also too crunchy and precise to allow RP and storytelling to drive the game like FATE does. Be careful of trying to merge too much together, because you end up adding needless complexity rather than play fun.

Not to derail this with talking about my own stuff, but I'll confess that a few of your ideas would work pretty well as Asura games. The [Power Source] in Dystopia Denied could very well be Prana, and the Asuras could be the threat that the authoritarian state faces. Stuff like Mages at War would also work pretty well, especially if the focus is on the PCs getting to lead the way in various epic battles of awesomeness. And such things. :grin:

Magnus Pym · November 25, 2011, 11:05:40 PM

I agree with sparkie`s mashing idea.

The Verdant Apocalypse with Mages at War, Aftermath and Nightmare's Stirring could give a powerful overall result. Mages have been fighting each other, creating the Stirring and Apocalypse and then the Aftermath initiative takes place.

Steerpike · November 25, 2011, 11:39:51 PM

[ic=Xathan of Many Ideas]Atlas Sunk, a setting inspired by Light Dragon's Gloria, Bioshock, Dresden Codak, and Fallout 3 and the setting of a brief IRC game I'm running that I'd like to do a bit more with. [/ic]This one sounds really cool! Are you playing it on a different site, or did I somehow miss the post for this? I take it it's underwater, at least in part??

sparkletwist · November 26, 2011, 12:45:05 AM

Quote from: SteerpikeAre you playing it on a different site, or did I somehow miss the post for this?

There was no post, and more or less no planning. Some of us (Xathan, Weave, Sabr, and me) were sitting around and talking on IRC and Xathan suggested an impromptu game.

Xeviat · November 26, 2011, 02:25:22 AM

Quote from: Xathan Of Many WorldsX-20: Reading Xeviat's thread's about his adaptation of 4E and looking over some old 3e/new Pathfinder rulebooks have made me nostalgic for the more classic, DnD style system. Designed to be compatible with almost any fantasy setting, the intent here is to combine my favorite elements of OGL d20 (which will be the backbone of this system), d20 modern, ideas drawn from 4E, and aspects (I made a pun!) of FATE, including Aspects and Consequences, with a dash of the flexibility of Green Ronin's True 20 (If you like MnM, True 20 is kind of a more classic class-based version of the same system) as well as the variability and level of awesome from Asura (the system, not the setting, since I can't make a setting with that type of awesome without just remaking Asura Xathan style – would have to use a different kind of awesome. :P)

It's called X-20 because it will be designed with Xeno Fantaseum in mind (Plus, my username is Xathan), but I'm not restricting it to that setting – if I do this right, it'd be completely possible to run Forgotten Realms, Eberron, Spelljammer, Dark Sun, Cadaverous Earth, Jade Stage, Agra, or really any Fantasy Setting within it, but especially those that are designed for use with existing d20 systems.

Interesting, because I was calling the work I was doing on my system "Xev-20", so I think fate has brought us together (see what I did there?) I'd love to work with someone on a "classic" system, though I will push for 4E as more of a base system (mainly 4E monster design, with X+level as the basic formula for expected stats).

Xathan · November 26, 2011, 12:03:32 PM

I've been crazy busy between planning the next session of my IRL game and working with a friend last night, but wanted to pop by to thank everyone for the feedback and let you guys know I'm reading, thinking, and will be responding (likely tomorrow/monday).

One brief note: Steerpike, it was a totally random, spur of the moment type thing - I made up the game on the spot. :P However, I fully intend on getting the logs up and a post up, since there are 4-5 unclaimed PCs running around and the possibility of new NPCs appearing, and I'd love for more people to join if they're interested before the next session. :)

Thank you all again!

Steerpike · November 26, 2011, 04:14:04 PM

Ah, gotcha! I may be able to join depending on when it happens.

Xathan · November 26, 2011, 09:24:51 PM

Okay, now time for that more targeted reply I promised. :)
@Kalontas: Glad to hear that this got you thinking - always good to know my post was helpful. :)

@Sparkle and Magnus: the plan was to use these settings for future mashups, but those exact combinations I'd never have thought of - and a ton of them would be a blast to do. I think I'm going to develop these settings as per the original plan, and then get the mashing hammer out - thank you both a ton for the combination ideas. :D

Sparkle, I definitely see your point on the setting stuff and I'm going to be doing my best to avoid that. I fully admit that the danger of X-20 becoming a convoluted mess is there, and if that happens I'll be sad but I'm not going to be wed to this system - the idea here is to see if it can be done, regardless of if it should. If the experiment fails, hopefully I'll at least have fun trying, and maybe inspire something else for someone else. :P I'm counting on you (and Sabr and Xeviat and LC, since those are the three biggest crunchmasters I interact with here) to call me on it if this becomes way too much. Incidentally, the end of this post will have details of the specifics for this system mashup for your consideration. :)

As for those two working really well in Asura...that's so very, very true. While I wouldn't presume to set something IN someone else's setting, there's a very good chance that Dystopia Denied and Mages at War (especially the former!) is going to use a slightly tweaked version of the Asura system - largely tweaked to slightly alter how prana powers work to achieve a less magic feel and a more matrix-y feel. :P

@Xeviat - hah, and I thought bad puns were exclusively my job. :P I'd love to turn this into a more collaborative project, but I want to stick to a closer OGL d20 system for steadier legal ground and because there's more in the classic d20 system I like than in 4E - but if you're interested, check the spoiler at the end of this post for more details.

@Steerpike - I hope you can join us!

...and actually, that spoiler is now.

[spoiler=X-20]

The big thing I started with was a list of likes and dislikes from the systems I'm stealing from, and I figured I'd share these

d20 3.5:
Likes

Each classe feels completely unique
Classes are versatile
Covered by the OGL
Has a very classic, familiar feel to it
Skill/feat spending flexible and choices matter
Rolling weapon/spell damage instead of fixed values

Dislikes

Rigid casting structure/vancian magic
Obvious "teirs" to classes
Levels 1-5 are dull and levesl 15-20 are too godly
Most interesting stuff only comes at higher levels
Challenge Rating a nightmare to calculate and monster/foe design overly complete
Hit points too abstract
Most of the time, best option is to do a very basic attack action or cast a basic spell - more complex actions have very complex, difficult to follow rules to accompany them
Save or Die, Permanent Level/Ability score loss, and XP costs

d20 Modern
Likes

Most of the same as above
Massive damage thresholds provide more concrete (though overly harsh) impacts to damage
Class matters for both attack and defense
All classes much more modular

Dislikes

Copy past everything from above
Massive damage being save or die
Base classes really just springboard for later Advanced classes and feel dull and overly generic

4E
Likes

Monster and encounter design simpler, elegant, and smooth
Characters get awesome abilities from the beginning and cannot be menaced by a housecat or particularly vicious piece of cheese at level one
At will powers make each class able to do their unique thing from the beginning
Got rid of some above problems with 3.X
Skill list simpler and more refined
No risk of getting 1 HP for leveling up
Prestige/paragon/epic classes don't stop you from being what you were, just add to it

Dislikes

Pretty much everything not mentioned above
What, you want some specifics?
Fine
Every class is now Vancian
Daily abilities, especially for non-mystic classes - "This sword swing is so awesome I can do it once each day
Very strong focus on grid/miniature use
Feels very MMO
Rigidly defined roles
Class design is horrifically complicated and most come across the same
Multiclassing
Paragon Paths/Epic Teir Paths forced
All classes feel the same or very similar, use exact same mechanics, and you forget old abilities (I learned this new skill so totally forgot how I did something before)
I could go on, but won't

FATE
Likes

Aspects and consequences
Maneuvers and temporary aspects make doing things other than attacking very easy and intuitive
Cleverness rewarded, not punished
Ability to make declarations give players a degree of control
FATE points
Anything else I don't mention in the dislikes

Dislikes

Skill pyramid feels very artificial
Weapon damage fixed
Very small list of stunts/powers player has access to
...uhhh...I guess I'm not a huge fan of being able to roll negative results.
Stress track just a boring way of waiting for consequences to come up
Lacks a certain "classic" feel
That's it, and some of those were stretching - FATE is awesome.

So that's the perspective from which I'm approaching this. There's one thing I want to add: my thoughts on how Hit Points should work. Right now what I'm thinking is you have hit points, totals smaller than DnD. Using something similar to Massive Damage - although a much lower number so it would crop up more frequently - you would have to take consequences when one of two things happen - to avoid your hit points dropping to 0, which is likely expected, and to avoid getting taken out if your Massive Damage Threshold is exceeded. That makes consequences crop up in combat on a more unpredictable basis, making combat more tense, but still also allow the "countdown doomsday clock" feel of stress tracks.
[/spoiler]

sparkletwist · November 26, 2011, 10:49:03 PM

Quote from: Xathan Of Many WorldsAs for those two working really well in Asura...that's so very, very true. While I wouldn't presume to set something IN someone else's setting

Hey, if another GM wants to do something with Asura, especially one that I know can handle it like you, who am I to protest? :D

Superfluous Crow · November 27, 2011, 01:41:53 AM

Why do you consider hit points to be better than stress tracks? More variability? I don't disagree, just curious.

Despite trying hard to find something I disagreed for the sake of constructive criticism, I largely agree with your both sound and detailed analysis of the above systems, with the exceptions, perhaps, being a few of the FATE drawbacks (I am pro-negatives!) as well as the comments on "system classicism" which I'd rather avoid than seek out (but that's probably because I'm currently playing a "classic" system ^^ ).

EDIT: on the matter of negatives, I'd rather face the risk of rolling a negative number than having a permanent penalty, which seems to be the way D&D et al. prefers. Nothing sucks more than a negative ability bonus...

Xathan · November 27, 2011, 02:32:02 AM

Quote from: sparkletwist
Quote from: Xathan Of Many WorldsAs for those two working really well in Asura...that's so very, very true. While I wouldn't presume to set something IN someone else's setting
Hey, if another GM wants to do something with Asura, especially one that I know can handle it like you, who am I to protest? :D

Wow, I'm flattered. :D And that's something I've never seen done on the CBG, someone running a game or building a mini-setting within someone's setting. I might (when I have the time to again, hopefully soon) catch you on IRC and discuss that with you - putting Dystopia Denied in an area of Asura could be incredibly interesting. And nothing says I can't do it in a more modern, matrixy setting AND a different version in Asura. :P

[quoteSuperfluous Crow]Why do you consider hit points to be better than stress tracks? More variability? I don't disagree, just curious.[/quote]

Bingo. A stress track is static and it's very apparently where the damage will appear on it - in fact, after being hit once, you will almost always immediately know if a consequence is a factor or not every time you're hit - and it's pretty easy to figure out in advance if that's the case. With hit points, every single hit could potentially invoke a consequence and you can't be sure if that's a factor until damage is rolled - but you also know that if damage never rolls high enough, if your hit points get low enough it will still matter, so it has that same countdown effect of a stress track, so it's kind of best of both worlds.

QuoteDespite trying hard to find something I disagreed for the sake of constructive criticism, I largely agree with your both sounded and detailed analysis of the above systems, with the exceptions, perhaps, being a few of the FATE drawbacks (I am pro-negatives!) as well as the comments on "system classicism" which I'd rather avoid than seek out (but that's probably because I'm currently playing a "classic" system ^^ ).

The sounded and detailed analysis comment is right now tied with Sparkletwist's comment about trusting me to develop something for Asura in terms of things that made my night. :D And I haven't played in a classic system in ages, so that's probably why we differ in that regard. :P

As for negatives...

QuoteEDIT: on the matter of negatives, I'd rather face the risk of rolling a negative number than having a permanent penalty, which seems to be the way D&D et al. prefers. Nothing sucks more than a negative ability bonus...

See, prior to reading the edit I figured negative rolls were something we'd have to agree to disagree on. Now that I've read it though, you have a damn good point there - I'd much rather risk rolling negative than always having a permanent penalty to something. I'm going to have to mull over this - if it's possible to avoid both a permanent penalty and negative rolls, that'd be my ideal (I'd love to eat my cake and have it too), but if it looks like for the sake of balance one or the other is going to be a must, I'm now leaning much more towards negative rolls as a risk than permanent penalties.

Though after I typed that, I realized that I will admit to myself negative ability bonus' are nice for the factor of being able to play a character that is sub-par in some area - some of the PCs I've had the most fun interacting with had a negative in Charisma, Wisdom, or Intellect, (one of my current PC's has a charisma penalty in a game that's 50/50 social and combat, and it's nice having to work around having the handcap of "I'm a socially awkward teenager with a big chip on my shoulder) and one of the most fun games I've heard about but not played in was a DnD game a couple friends of mine were in where every character had a free 18 in one stat...but also had to take a 6 in another. It might turn out that eating my cake and having it too will end up being negative rolls AND the option - never mandatory, always a choice of the player - to have a negative ability bonus. In short, a negative ability bonus you have to take because you rolls stats poorly is never fun, but one you chose to have for the character can be a wonderful thing. :P

Superfluous Crow · November 27, 2011, 03:33:56 AM

It should indeed be viable in any system to play a character with sub-par stats, but games like D&D punish you unnecessarily harshly for it. In a game where most rules and difficulties seem to be geared towards a character with a +2 bonus, a -1 or less can be devastating (especially since most of D&D is about "beating the game/challenge/task"). The D&D ability scores are rather granular, which is why this is a problem, and a +-1 difference means more than it should. Lower variance around the average score would be preferable.

Another tendency I have observed when it comes to low ability scores is that players with low stats tend to become "stat clowns". Basically, their utter lack of competence in some field causes them to take it to ridiculous levels for the sake of comic relief - the low-cha orc always says the wrong thing at the wrong time, the low-wisdom wizard always forgets things, and the low-str cleric always fails miserably at the simplest tasks. This is probably why your friends enjoyed the game they played so much, because this can occasionally be hilarious. But it can also be too much, and often it gets out of hand, breaking the suspension of disbelief, drawing people out of immersion, causing exasperated fellow players to groan in dismay etc.

Ideally, your character should be able to be bad at something without being the most incompetent person ever to grace this earth.

sparkletwist · November 27, 2011, 01:56:56 PM

Quote from: Xathan Of Many WorldsAnd nothing says I can't do it in a more modern, matrixy setting AND a different version in Asura.

Well, nothing except the fact that you don't want to try to have too much going at the same time. :)

Quote from: Xathan Of Many WorldsI'd much rather risk rolling negative than always having a permanent penalty to something.

I don't think where the "negative" comes up actually matters. It's just a question of offsets.
In d20, you roll a die with a positive integer and add a value centered around 0 to it.
In FATE, you roll a die with a value centered around 0 and add a (usually) positive integer to it.
One basic approach could be changed to the other just by offsetting some numbers.

What does matter is that FATE uses 4 dice and has a strong bell curve, whereas d20 uses a strictly linear probability. There is, as such, a lot more chance of outlying weirdness on d20 dice rolls. I think this factor, not any kind of "permanent penalty", is what can make d20 seem more wild and harsh.

Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worldsif it's possible to avoid both a permanent penalty and negative rolls, that'd be my ideal

If you want to avoid both permanent penalties and negative rolls, then play FATE with "Terrible" as 0 and "Mediocre" as +2, and with d3s instead of fudge dice. Add 10 to any static value that you're rolling against. It won't change anything in the end, but it will get rid of negative numbers. :grin:

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