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My ultimate challenge: a "goodass" character

Started by Kalontas, November 22, 2011, 05:58:55 PM

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Kalontas

November 22, 2011, 05:58:55 PM
What I recently posted on the Wizards' boards, reminded me of one certain thing I always wanted to do as a writer. Mainly, do something I described there as a "goodass" character. By that I mean a character who can be "badass" (i.e. cool), but without being anti-heroic or really a bad character. I want a character which is cool, kicking ass and taking names, not afraid to use his boomsticks and can run out of bubble-gum every once in a while, but he's still a hero of the downtrodden and protector of the innocent. A benevolent, kind character who knows when and who to kick out. And not even "white" character on "white and black" morality scale - more of a "bright and gray" morality. Now, how does one really do it?

Many things can make a character "cool" for your average reader. One thing certainly important is his appearance - while pure human knights in shining armor quickly get boring, you can get a character who's an alien with weird skin color and even weirder forehead, who wears some really unique pieces of clothing. Or he can spout "kickass" catch-phrases that would still make him distinct and cool enough. Or... a whole lot of things.

The question is: what makes a character cool and "badass" for you, and can it work with a benevolent, kind character?
That guy who invents 1,000 campaign settings a second and never finishes a single one.

Stargate525

#2
November 22, 2011, 10:03:25 PM
Captain Carrot from Discworld
Harry Dresden, though he gets pretty dark...

I think the big one is that he's not the sort of fluffy do-gooder that Superman is. He just... does it. With Superman, it always seems like a forced thing. To make him cool and also good, he would have to do those things without thought, just... because.
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Kindling

#4
November 23, 2011, 03:15:01 PM
What definition of anti-hero are you using?
all hail the reapers of hope

Kalontas

#5
November 23, 2011, 03:20:02 PM
Quote from: Kindling
What definition of anti-hero are you using?

What I was meaning (which is perhaps, I admit, not the perfect fit for what everyone else has under that) is that bad ass characters have the problem of often being bad, and being an ass. They often tend to be brutal and, for a want of a better word, jerks who don't really care for anyone. The character I want to create is supposed to be capable of doing awesome, extraordinary stuff, but without being an a-hole.
That guy who invents 1,000 campaign settings a second and never finishes a single one.

Xathan

#6
November 23, 2011, 03:56:50 PM
I think that good-ass characters are often more "badass" than the "Badass" characters. Take, for example, the gun-fu expert - Neo from the matrix. Picture that famous lobby scene where he and Trinty kill an entire room full of guards with assault rifles while doing badass stunts and such.

Now tell me, who is more awesome - the person who does what they did, or the person who fires the same number of bullets and takes down the same number of guards without permanently injuring or killing a single one, shots that disarm, deal soft tissue damage that will heal, ricochet a piece of stone off the wall to strike them in the temple and knock them out, etc.

So I'd say an awesome goodass character would be someone who can take down the same number of people as a badass and do it with the same amount of style...yet leaves everyone alive to return to their families and consider their life choices after the fight is over.

That, to me, would be the ultimate goodass character.
AnIndex of My Work

Quote from: Sparkletwist
It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
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[/spoiler]

SabrWolf

#7
November 23, 2011, 04:03:50 PM
Quote from: Xathan Of Many Worlds
So I'd say an awesome goodass character would be someone who can take down the same number of people as a badass and do it with the same amount of style...yet leaves everyone alive to return to their families and consider their life choices after the fight is over.

I'd say that the Ultimate Good-Ass is gonna get killed (or at least retaliated against) eventually for being so nice to the people who he doesn't kill. Which, in the case of the retaliation anyway, is great fuel for stories, but is not so great for keeping your old sentimental, life preserving, mentalities.

In that way, Good-Ass characters will eventually become the GREATEST anti-heroes ever.

...

If everything plays out the way I suspect they will that is.

Kalontas

#8
November 23, 2011, 04:27:44 PM
Quote from: SabrWolfI'd say that the Ultimate Good-Ass is gonna get killed (or at least retaliated against) eventually for being so nice to the people who he doesn't kill. Which, in the case of the retaliation anyway, is great fuel for stories, but is not so great for keeping your old sentimental, life preserving, mentalities.

In that way, Good-Ass characters will eventually become the GREATEST anti-heroes ever.

...

If everything plays out the way I suspect they will that is.

Would your average mooks be so vengeful, though? If you play them as just meat-shields who get injured (but not killed) during their service, they will either run away (thankful for surviving another day in service of BBEG), or slowly recuperate, hopefully not meeting the hero anymore. For them, it would be just another bad day - because not every mook is a villain.

But that was indeed a very cool thought, Xathan.
That guy who invents 1,000 campaign settings a second and never finishes a single one.

SabrWolf

#9
November 23, 2011, 04:40:48 PM
Are your "random mooks" so simple that they can't have feelings of their own?

Have you never seen a trusted lieutenant who was "taken care of" (taken out of a fight, in a semi-permanent way) in a long running game/tv show/movie series/book serial/etc. that didn't come back bigger and stronger than before for revenge?

Why can't a mook do that?

I'd do it. I actually might have already done it in a game I've run at the table (can't remember for sure tho). It's not about what is "typical" in a game that's gonna impress your players and make a long lasting impression. It's what's "atypical" that'll really get your players/readers/viewers to lock on to your stories.

The Mook (as he has become named in my mind) will TOTALLY come back to haunt the Goodass.

Just you wait and see.

Kalontas

#10
November 23, 2011, 04:48:15 PM
Quote from: SabrWolf
Are your "random mooks" so simple that they can't have feelings of their own?

Have you never seen a trusted lieutenant who was "taken care of" (taken out of a fight, in a semi-permanent way) in a long running game/tv show/movie series/book serial/etc. that didn't come back bigger and stronger than before for revenge?

Why can't a mook do that?

I'd do it. I actually might have already done it in a game I've run at the table (can't remember for sure tho). It's not about what is "typical" in a game that's gonna impress your players and make a long lasting impression. It's what's "atypical" that'll really get your players/readers/viewers to lock on to your stories.

The Mook (as he has become named in my mind) will TOTALLY come back to haunt the Goodass.

Just you wait and see.

There are "trusted lieutenants", and then there are just people who happen to be serving the BBEG. Of course, an important and dangerous character who was spared but comes back is always a strong motiff, but how many of those there can be? Not everybody has that kind of personality. They may bear a grudge (or prejudice) for the rest of their life, but rarely will they act on it, like any typical foot soldier.
(Besides, a spared enemy who comes back, vengeful, is just a trope that might be used for a goodass character)

The idea Xathan planted actually reminds me of a scene in Terminator 2. Arnie stands in that building with a bunch of cops trying to take him down. He's about to kill them all when he remembers how John Connor told him to not kill people. Arnie manages to incapacitate all of them, with 0 fatalities. Now that _was_ a badass scene, perhaps even above "remember when I said I'll kill you last" for Arnold.
That guy who invents 1,000 campaign settings a second and never finishes a single one.

Xathan

#11
November 23, 2011, 07:05:06 PM
Here's my take on this:

I think Sabr's right. The Mooks (not all, of course, but some), even though who aren't particularly powerful or big or whatever, will eventually come seeking revenge - it's a trope we see often enough in Superhero comics to believe is likely.

And that's what makes the Goodass character so awesome. He knows this. And he just doesn't give a flip.
AnIndex of My Work

Quote from: Sparkletwist
It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
Appendix I: Open Game License Version 1.0a
The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.
1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.
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4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.
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7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.
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11. Use of Contributor Credits: You may not market or advertise the Open Game Content using the name of any Contributor unless You have written permission from the Contributor to do so.
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14 Reformation: If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable.
15 COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Fudge 10th Anniversary Edition Copyright 2005, Grey Ghost Press, Inc.; Authors Steffan O'Sullivan and Ann Dupuis, with additional material by Jonathan Benn, Peter Bonney, Deird'Re Brooks, Reimer Behrends, Don Bisdorf, Carl Cravens, Shawn Garbett, Steven Hammond, Ed Heil, Bernard Hsiung, J.M. "Thijs" Krijger, Sedge Lewis, Shawn Lockard, Gordon McCormick, Kent Matthewson, Peter Mikelsons, Robb Neumann, Anthony Roberson, Andy Skinner, William Stoddard, Stephan Szabo, John Ughrin, Alex Weldon, Duke York, Dmitri Zagidulin
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
Spirit of the Century Copyright 2006 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue, Fred Hicks, and Leonard Balsera
Xathan's forum posts at http://www.thecbg.org Copyright 2006-2011, J.A. Raizman.
[/spoiler]

Drizztrocks

#12
December 03, 2011, 09:59:21 AM
Good Jet Li from The One?  Good-asses in these stories mentioned, like Neo and Jet Li, are normal moral-guided people thrown into bad situations, and in those situations they retain their goodliness. Unless you're doing something like that, it'll be a pretty unrealistic character, since you don't want him to be a Paladin of Justice in shiny white armor. You're average decent person doesn't go out and beat up villains and save villages just out of the average goodness of his heart. Just like you're average creep doesn't go be an evil villain.

Drizztrocks

#14
December 03, 2011, 11:21:42 PM
Quote from: Steerpike
Anyone here seen the Walking Dead (especially the HBO series)?  I think Rick is the perfect example of a "goodass" character whereas Shane is the perfect example of a "badass" character.

   I guess you could say that, but can you in all honesty say Rick is as cool as Shane? Shane can be a real asshole, but that's part of what makes him cool. That's the challenge with making an awesome good character.
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