Mare Eternus Discussion

Nomadic · December 23, 2011, 04:26:57 PM

Quote from: Black Market Xathan
QuoteThe Gerrag arrival in The Expanse was completely unknown by the Nicu, Maeri, and Kroa yet the event itself quite literally shattered an entire world.

To clarify, it sounds like the Gerrag are aliens that had their entire planet crash-land into the Expanse. If that's the case, then holy hell, how did any of them survive that? Did they know it was coming? What happened to the chunks of their homeworld? (I could see a Gerrag city built upon one of those...). And how far away did this world land where no one else noticed it? How big a planet are we talking here? How long ago did they arrive?

Yes their homeworld was a drifter world in one of the outer currents. When it swung past The Expanse it got ejected from the current, stopping when it decided to ram another world. The collision resulted in tremendous earthquakes, flooding, and within very short order the world itself cracking apart. Alot of people died as they had no idea what was about to happen. They perhaps saw the approaching world in the last minutes but they would have had little time to do anything but flee to safety. The shattered remains still exist today and yes they have a city within one of the unflooded portions of one of the pieces. Regarding distances Outssi is on the fringes of The Expanse, it's very easy to not get noticed out there due to how far away from everyone else it is no matter how large you are. Their arrival was while the Kroa were still alive so we're talking Pre-Veiran Plague. They've been around for over a thousand of our years.

Quote from: Black Market Xathan
QuoteLike the Aerlin, the Gerrag have largely stayed to their own waters with only small groups setting out on their own. In the case of the Gerrag this is more an issue of distance and isolation than anything else.

This part doesn't seem to jive with the initial impression we get from the Gerrag upon their arrival. If they're a militaristic expansionist nation, why are they staying within their own waters? Is it out of a fear of provoking other cultures too early? Are the small groups scouting parties? Are they building up?

I'm actually going to wait on the answers to these before I go further in my commentary/questions - the answers here will shape how I respond to rest. :)

The Gerrag aren't militaristic. Their expansion is driven by economic and scientific exploration. In fact the Pearl Way is far more militaristic than Outssi. Modern Gerrag military is used largely to protect their borders, keep the peace, and protect prospecting or research groups with enough coin to hire guards. Gerrag waters also references something that is slowly yet steadily expanding. They've basically hit the limit on how much territory they can realistically claim. Their population isn't large enough to continue their initial explosive expansion. The map doesn't show it well but The Expanse is something like 25,000 miles from end to end. Outssi itself is larger than Russia length and width wise.

Quote from: OmegaLimit
I have to say I'm also a fan of the Gerrag. I like the inherent diversity and the idea that they're so obsessed with a search for truth. Your description of their dress and architecture reminds me of the recent discovery that Greek/Roman architecture, sculptures, etc. were actually very colorful and flamboyant. I'm also getting a kind of early 1900s America feel from them with the isolationism. I'll also be waiting for your response to Xathan before I can ask a bit more.

Glad to hear that you like them. Their isolation isn't really a cultural isolationism, it's literally driven by distance. They are over six thousand miles away from the nearest nation that is open to trading with them. The Pearl Way itself is over ten thousand miles away. Their nearest neighbors (the free Tilei) want nothing to do with them. They do a bit of trading with the independant worlds of Zendakol and the other surrounding regions and Gerrag convoys do make it all the way out to Merdi and The Hub from time to time but the distance has resulted in a very distinct culture separate from that of the other resident members of The Expanse. It would probably be like China compared to Europe during the middle ages. A strange faraway land.

Hibou · December 23, 2011, 04:36:55 PM

Mmm. I must've misunderstood the description. The distance isolation is a whole other kind of awesome. Now that I think about it, it puts a lot of potential in to re-imagine that kind of feel of the strange, faraway land in a totally awesome infinite ocean. I am excited to see more.

Nomadic · December 30, 2011, 04:56:05 AM

Finally started working on the rules section, added some basic ideas on where I want to go with this as well as how I view certain situations playing out.

http://www.thecbg.org/index.php/topic,67936.msg212438.html#msg212438

Nomadic · January 04, 2012, 06:27:31 AM

Added some more Nicu insults as well as started a section for players giving basic information that they would most likely know as a member of a particular area or species. Should hopefully give players a rough idea of what information their character would probably know regarding themselves and their culture.

LordVreeg · January 04, 2012, 08:42:06 AM

You are doing an amazing job of avoiding the pitfalls of other settings and setting/system mixes...mine included. You have a very clear vision; and the work so far on the crunch, while barebones, is clear as heck.

I also think that the macro view of basic informartion that different racial groups would know is a great way to go. I Alos like the fact (not overlooked, btw) that you are doing this also culturally, not merely racially.

Nomadic · January 04, 2012, 05:33:57 PM

Quote from: LordVreeg
You are doing an amazing job of avoiding the pitfalls of other settings and setting/system mixes...mine included. You have a very clear vision; and the work so far on the crunch, while barebones, is clear as heck.

I also think that the macro view of basic informartion that different racial groups would know is a great way to go. I Alos like the fact (not overlooked, btw) that you are doing this also culturally, not merely racially.

Thanks Vreeg. I've been working hard to focus on developing people as cultures instead of species/races. I've come to realize that species is going to have some cultural influence but that in such a mixed setting a big part of culture is going to be based on location and common nationality. A Yrvaian Maeri from the Pearl Way is going to be closer culturally to their close allies, the Lynaran Nicu, than an Ikaedian Maeri.

Xathan · January 22, 2012, 01:10:36 AM

At request: Gerrag Schooling and The Shrine of the Perfect Mind

QuoteThe foundation of formal Gerrag schools was born from the Wisaria Orausu, The Shrine of the Perfect Mind. They were initially simple collectives, shrines for the collection and protection of knowledge.

I like the terminology here - the word shrine has some major religious connotations, and the Gerrag seems to have an emphasis on knowledge that borders on the religious, which is fun and interesting. How deep does that emphasis go? How much do Gerrag "worship" knowledge?

QuoteIt was here that Gerrag Wisards maintained their tomes and here that they taught their pupils. Potential Wisards were brought up in the knowledge and traditions of the Wisaria within the walls of these temples of learning.

"Tome" is a broad word - is it just magical books, or any large important books? Or some other element I'm missing?

QuoteThe shrines were open to the public who were free to seek knowledge from the stored books and learned sages of the temple. The great knowledge of the shrines drew interest from numerous groups and before long all manner of people were flocking to them in search of understanding. They became mixture of library and school for the local populace and the number of members within the Wisaria Orausu greatly increased.

This actually confuses me a bit. I get the idea behind the shrines, but the sense I got was that they were for the "protection of knowledge" - which seems to run contrary to allowing public access to them. Were the public only allowed to see some bits? Were they only able to observe while under guard? Were they not able to directly see the books, but see them through some other medium to not risk them?

QuoteModern Wisard Shrines maintain this tradition of enriching the populace around them though they have since drifted towards a more formal and structured system. Their great libraries still exist though the rarest of their knowledge is often closely guarded out of fear of thievery or vandalism.

What's the line between rare knowledge and open knowledge? If they're open to enriching the public, why don't they just copy down the rare knowledge so they can disperse it more? What keeps rare knowledge rare?

QuoteAny person may use them though care is to be taken as the destruction of a repository of knowledge is a deep sin within the Wisaria and met with swift punishment.

How is this monitored? What is the punishment?

QuoteIn addition to these libraries the Wisards maintain lecture halls, great open rooms where they teach those interested in the particular Wisards knowledge. In exchange for knowledge Wisards traditionally demand compensation from ones own capabilities. A farmer may offer food to the temple while a carpenter agrees to repair something for them in the future. Even the unskilled may request teaching in exchange for general labor (in fact this is one of the key things that led to the Tilei enslavement).

I love this bit, but how did it lead to Tilei enslavement? Because they built up too big a debt?

QuoteWisard teachings are often steeped in their lore and beliefs but nevertheless immensely valuable. All manner of things may be learned from basic maths to complex medicine, each discipline being the focus of a Wisard who has devoted their life to its study and understanding.

How much does this lore and beliefs color their teachings? how much of it impacts what they discover? Is the scientific method (or some approximation of it) known and used? What are these beliefs?

QuoteComplete understanding however is only found through apprenticeship. Those wishing to become Wisards must apprentice under a master of their trade from whom they learn in exchange for running errands, maintaining their masters house, preparing meals, and any other mundane tasks required. Before one may become a full fledged Wisard they are then sent out, tasked with retrieving some new knowledge and returning it to their shrine. The apprentice of a master chef might seek out a new recipe while the apprentice of a Musician may return with a previously unknown song. Such searches can take many years and Wisards on these journeys of knowledge can be found all throughout The Expanse.

Sounds like a great hook for a character - a prospective Wisard seeking knowledge. So are you only truly considered to have mastered an art if you are a Wisard of it? Is Wisard a title like Doctor or PhD, where you can be a Wisard Cook, a Wisard Carpenter, and Wisard Underwater Basket Weaver?* Or does Wisard refer to something specific? Does becoming a Wisard mean you have to accept the previously mentioned beliefs, or are there some who do not - or are those who do not accept the beliefs but are Wisards considered heretics? Also, what does Wisard actually mean, since I figure spelling it differently than Wizard was a deliberate choice?

*This being ME, I suppose all basket weavers are underwater.

Nomadic · January 22, 2012, 02:21:35 AM

Quote from: Xathan Back Again
At request: Gerrag Schooling and The Shrine of the Perfect Mind

QuoteThe foundation of formal Gerrag schools was born from the Wisaria Orausu, The Shrine of the Perfect Mind. They were initially simple collectives, shrines for the collection and protection of knowledge.

I like the terminology here - the word shrine has some major religious connotations, and the Gerrag seems to have an emphasis on knowledge that borders on the religious, which is fun and interesting. How deep does that emphasis go? How much do Gerrag "worship" knowledge?

QuoteIt was here that Gerrag Wisards maintained their tomes and here that they taught their pupils. Potential Wisards were brought up in the knowledge and traditions of the Wisaria within the walls of these temples of learning.

"Tome" is a broad word - is it just magical books, or any large important books? Or some other element I'm missing?

QuoteThe shrines were open to the public who were free to seek knowledge from the stored books and learned sages of the temple. The great knowledge of the shrines drew interest from numerous groups and before long all manner of people were flocking to them in search of understanding. They became mixture of library and school for the local populace and the number of members within the Wisaria Orausu greatly increased.

This actually confuses me a bit. I get the idea behind the shrines, but the sense I got was that they were for the "protection of knowledge" - which seems to run contrary to allowing public access to them. Were the public only allowed to see some bits? Were they only able to observe while under guard? Were they not able to directly see the books, but see them through some other medium to not risk them?

QuoteModern Wisard Shrines maintain this tradition of enriching the populace around them though they have since drifted towards a more formal and structured system. Their great libraries still exist though the rarest of their knowledge is often closely guarded out of fear of thievery or vandalism.

What's the line between rare knowledge and open knowledge? If they're open to enriching the public, why don't they just copy down the rare knowledge so they can disperse it more? What keeps rare knowledge rare?

QuoteAny person may use them though care is to be taken as the destruction of a repository of knowledge is a deep sin within the Wisaria and met with swift punishment.

How is this monitored? What is the punishment?

QuoteIn addition to these libraries the Wisards maintain lecture halls, great open rooms where they teach those interested in the particular Wisards knowledge. In exchange for knowledge Wisards traditionally demand compensation from ones own capabilities. A farmer may offer food to the temple while a carpenter agrees to repair something for them in the future. Even the unskilled may request teaching in exchange for general labor (in fact this is one of the key things that led to the Tilei enslavement).

I love this bit, but how did it lead to Tilei enslavement? Because they built up too big a debt?

QuoteWisard teachings are often steeped in their lore and beliefs but nevertheless immensely valuable. All manner of things may be learned from basic maths to complex medicine, each discipline being the focus of a Wisard who has devoted their life to its study and understanding.

How much does this lore and beliefs color their teachings? how much of it impacts what they discover? Is the scientific method (or some approximation of it) known and used? What are these beliefs?

QuoteComplete understanding however is only found through apprenticeship. Those wishing to become Wisards must apprentice under a master of their trade from whom they learn in exchange for running errands, maintaining their masters house, preparing meals, and any other mundane tasks required. Before one may become a full fledged Wisard they are then sent out, tasked with retrieving some new knowledge and returning it to their shrine. The apprentice of a master chef might seek out a new recipe while the apprentice of a Musician may return with a previously unknown song. Such searches can take many years and Wisards on these journeys of knowledge can be found all throughout The Expanse.

Sounds like a great hook for a character - a prospective Wisard seeking knowledge. So are you only truly considered to have mastered an art if you are a Wisard of it? Is Wisard a title like Doctor or PhD, where you can be a Wisard Cook, a Wisard Carpenter, and Wisard Underwater Basket Weaver?* Or does Wisard refer to something specific? Does becoming a Wisard mean you have to accept the previously mentioned beliefs, or are there some who do not - or are those who do not accept the beliefs but are Wisards considered heretics? Also, what does Wisard actually mean, since I figure spelling it differently than Wizard was a deliberate choice?

*This being ME, I suppose all basket weavers are underwater.

Well we already discussed this online but here's basically my answers for the above so that others can see them.

1) The Gerrag don't worship knowledge, the Wisaria do. Their worship of it is the very core of what they are so it is everywhere for them.

2) By tome I basically mean anything written, just a literary choice.

3) The Wisaria looks to protect and collect knowledge, it also sees this knowledge as worthless unless used for the greater good so they spread it to the everyman. However having said that they do keep careful watch over things like their books. You can visit their archives and research things but you are going to be closely monitored. Newer members of the shrine often find themselves roped into helping and watching people who come to the libraries.

4) I mistyped I think by knowledge I was thinking more books. They do copy their books but the rare originals are very carefully protected and you aren't going to get your hands on one without being a long time member of the Wisaria and having an excellent reason.

5) Well as I said up above the libraries are carefully watched. Destroying knowledge is one of the gravest offenses you can commit. Punishments usually involve things like burning the offenders hands or beating them with a cane and so forth. Very serious crimes (like someone who sets a library on fire or hosts a mass book burning) result in the sinful being stuck inside something much like the Sicilian bull and roasted to death. You don't mess around with the Wisaria.

6) The Tilei were in the eyes of the Gerrag savages, dumb cousins that needed learning. So they started taking them in (often through coercion) and taught them as Gerrag. Wisaria believes that knowledge is a valuable gift (which is why they require services or goods in return for their teaching) and this was used as an excuse to pretty much enslave the Tilei. It started as simply repaying their debts but as time went on these Gerrag did everything they could to make as many Tilei as they could permanently indebted to them. We're talking christian crusader/muslim extremist level bull they were pulling on them in the name of their beliefs while having little interest in following the Wisaria (being mostly interested in slaves/getting rich). Not all the Gerrag took part or agreed with it, and not all of the Tilei were enslaved but it drove a deep wedge between the two sides (as well as a number of other wedges between the various Gerrag groups themselves).

7) Alot. I haven't yet worked out the details of their beliefs but suffice it to say that the Gerrag would be far and away the most advanced group in The Expanse if not for the traditions of Wisaria. As it stands they're on about level ground with The Pearl Way. The Pearl Way is more skilled in very concrete technologies (especially those useful for trade and warfare) like engineering and chemistry while Outssi is superior when it comes to things like anatomy/medicine, philosophy, math, etc. Overall they're pretty close technologically to each other. The scientific method is used but it's been warped a bit by their beliefs (kind of WH40k tech priest style though far less extreme).

8) It is not a title it is merely a member of the Wisaria. They do have titles ranging from the newest apprentices all the way up to the grand masters in charge of the shrines. I will take some time to detail these soon. And yes being a member requires following their beliefs though having said that their beliefs are pretty simple and straight forward and a number of religions do not conflict in any way with them. The Wisaria is fully accepting of members who also look to other religions for spiritual growth provided they do not neglect their own duties to knowledge. As for the meaning it comes from Wisaria Orausu which means Shrine[Orausu] (of the) Perfect Mind[Wisaria]. They are followers of the perfect mind.

As an aside Wisard isn't pronounced like it looks. I talked this over with Xathan and we hammered out a better spelling (which I will be editing in)... Weisardth (Weigh-zawth[soft th]) and Weisaria Orausu (Weigh-zaia Oh-raw-soo).

Nomadic · January 23, 2012, 03:07:19 AM

Ok well I've finally decided to commit to running a game in this (something I've talked about alot but not actually sat down and said I will do this). This first game is going to be fluff focused so I think to start we'll being the classic no-stats theater style. If it's successful we may move to a simple rules system to add a little crunch for future games (I was thinking of using the Asura system).

Anyhow I think the critical thing is to start laying out information important for characters to know. I will do a bit more fleshing out of the races and cultures as well as some more development on major religions and factions. This should give a solid background to work from so that all involved can get a solid grasp on the feel of the setting. In addition I'm going to start detailing technology.

I think the list of things that are critical will be something like:
- Racial and cultural overview
- Major religions
- Major factions
- Linguistic concepts (insults, slang, various languages)
- Recent Expanse history
- Common technology

Once we get closer to the game I'll do some further detail of the area the game will be taking place in (local cultures, places, languages, minor religions and factions, local history, persons of note in the area, etc) so that the players will know what just about anyone in the area would probably know. At that point we can see about finalizing plans for this.

sparkletwist · January 23, 2012, 02:30:36 PM

Quote from: Nomadic(I was thinking of using the Asura system)

I would be happy to help with this, if I can. :)

Nomadic · January 23, 2012, 04:04:47 PM

Quote from: sparkletwist
Quote from: Nomadic(I was thinking of using the Asura system)
I would be happy to help with this, if I can. :)

I could certainly use the help once it gets to that point. I think it will be best to do the first game as rules free so that I and everyone else can get a feel for the kind of roleplay that will develop out of this. The next step will be to introduce a simple rules system that is in line with the kind of setting this is (since my rules system isn't done yet). Since Asura also focuses on the importance of rule of cool it has a rules system that will fit ok for that. At that point we can utilize it to see how crunch will start to affect things (primarily my running of the game but also how using rules will slow down or change things).

Nomadic · January 25, 2012, 01:20:38 AM

Just added a new fleshed out section on the Weisaria Orausu (under religion) for any who want to read it. My next target will be doing the Maeri Wandering Way ancestor worship as I already have alot of information on that up.

LordVreeg · January 25, 2012, 09:09:33 AM

Quote from: Nomadic
Just added a new fleshed out section on the Weisaria Orausu (under religion) for any who want to read it. My next target will be doing the Maeri Wandering Way ancestor worship as I already have alot of information on that up.

will try to get a look this weekend, after the sale from hell.

Nomadic · January 25, 2012, 05:40:46 PM

Quote from: LordVreeg
Quote from: Nomadic
Just added a new fleshed out section on the Weisaria Orausu (under religion) for any who want to read it. My next target will be doing the Maeri Wandering Way ancestor worship as I already have alot of information on that up.
will try to get a look this weekend, after the sale from hell.

Awesome would love to hear from you. In the meantime I shall start compiling my notes for the Wandering Way.

Xathan · January 26, 2012, 04:31:48 PM

One thing I have trouble with in reading Mare Eternus (as a relative newcomer) is that I fairly often find myself struggling to find where the new information is - would you be able to include the new information in a spoiler in the post where you announce that you've updated for ease of review? :)

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