D&D Setting (The Meatloaf Setting)

O Senhor Leetz · January 23, 2012, 04:38:47 PM

Quote from: Xeviat
Seems like a fun project. Typical D&D, where your expectations are generally right. Something nice and comforting, easy to get into. I'll definitely keep an I on how this grows from here out.

Nice and comforting is the goal. Like a well-made meatloaf.

Xathan · January 23, 2012, 04:45:49 PM

I dub this the meatloaf setting. :P

Seriously, though, I like what I'm seeing. Very classic without being "Yawn, seen this before." Looking forward to watching it develop further!

O Senhor Leetz · January 24, 2012, 10:27:25 AM

An Ever-So-Brief History Just to Get Things Going (Really, it's not that long - don't run away!)

This setting, thus far, has turned out to be very Human-centric. While the other Races, Elves in particular, are important in the history and development of the world, they still take a back seat (for now). This quick historical blurb is written from the viewpoint of Humans, particularly the Humans that came from the West 1,114 years ago, made war with the Elves, and emerged victorious.

[note=The Humans]The Humans that came from the West are not the only Humans in the whole world, there are plenty of rumors, some truer than others, of strange, fantastic lands across the seas - but this should not be read as Magic Asia and Magic Africa. That being said, I am sure I will never get around to fleshing out these places. Ever.[/note]
The basic premise begins with the Humans fleeing from the West after losing a prolonged war against the Dragons. They left in a great fleet, as their Old Empire was literally burning around them. At last, they came across the Western Sea and found a seemingly empty but lush land.

After the majority of the Human refugees - some of the ships were blown off course or sunk during the voyage - founded what was to be known as the First Kingdom, they soon came into contact with the Elves, who were none too happy to see a barbaric, seemingly uncouth people inhabit lands they just fought so hard for. Ergo, the Elven Wars soon began.

[note=The Dwarves]Prior to the arrival of the Humans, the Dwarves and Elves fought their own terrible, bloody war, with the Elves barely emerging victorious and the Dwarves being driven far into their northernmost citadels. This, I hope, explains why the disparate and battle-weary Humans were in turn able to defeat the much more advanced Elves on their own turf.[/note]
Despite the Elves knowledge of the land and more advanced civilization, the Humans proved to be too prolific, tenacious, and ingenious to drive back into the sea. The Dwarves, from their snowy mountain holds also helped the Humans in the forms of weapons and knowledge, further tipping the balance.

After more than 700 years of varying states of war, a great truce was made between the Elves and Humans - the Elves were to retreat over the [Named Mountains] that ran just east of the coast to their vast forest realm of Sidherrealliar and the Humans were to stay on their side of the [Named Mountains] - I realize a map would be useful about now.

[note=The Little Folk]In addition to Elves, Humans, and Dwarves, Halflings and Gnomes also exist in the setting world and are known as the Little Folk. The Great Kin - Elves, Humans, and Dwarves - rarely pay attention to the Little Folk, and they are largely absent from history. The Halflings are nomadic travelers, traders, and thieves and the Gnomes are forest recluses who use their natural skill in illusion and knowledge of the wilderness to remain more or less un-findable. In fact, most of the Great Kin probably wouldn't be able to tell Halflings and Gnomes apart from each other if they had to.[/note]
After that, the history of the last 400 years takes a much more Human-centric focus, with only the occasional skirmish between Elves and Humans breaking the otherwise stable peace.

In addition to other things, I hope this history gives:

A decent explanation to why things are the way they are.
Adventure hooks in the forms of ancient Dwarven citadels, old Human castles, and archaic Elven fortresses
Possible future conflict between these formerly warring Races.
The slight, but terrible, chance that the Dragons may come from the West and finish what they started...

Xathan · January 24, 2012, 02:12:08 PM

Interesting stuff, and I'll do a line-by-line inquisitive review tomorrow, but I do have one immediate question: it sounds like you're going for monocultural races. Is that a design decision, or is it just that On This Continent races are monocultural, but elsewhere in the world you see a greater variation in cultures for races? (Props, btw, for not making humans the exception to the monocultural rume as far as I can tell - monoculture bothers me much, much less in a setting where humans are the exception, and every other race is monocultural.)

O Senhor Leetz · January 24, 2012, 03:16:54 PM

Quote from: Xathan Back Again
Interesting stuff, and I'll do a line-by-line inquisitive review tomorrow, but I do have one immediate question: it sounds like you're going for monocultural races. Is that a design decision, or is it just that On This Continent races are monocultural, but elsewhere in the world you see a greater variation in cultures for races? (Props, btw, for not making humans the exception to the monocultural rume as far as I can tell - monoculture bothers me much, much less in a setting where humans are the exception, and every other race is monocultural.)

[note]However, during the Elven Wars and the wars between the Dwarves and Elves even earlier, I suppose that the cultures were much more homogeneous than they are now. Foreign enemies would cause a Race to unite, despite the difference within said Race. But once the Elven Wars were over, the conflicts within each race were directed inward instead of outward.[/note]
As for the monocultures - yes and no.

Will there be sub-races amongst the non-Human races? Probably not.

But will there be different factions, kingdoms, organizations, and religions within each? Most definitely. The Dwarves are divided into family clans and often fight amongst each other over centuries-old insults and transgressions while the Elves are also divided into various tribes, each trying to sway the High King. And Humans are not a monoculture either, it's just that the setting focuses on one of many Human kingdoms, which may make it seem like they are.

However, at the moment this is a Human-centric setting, and to most Humans in the setting, the Elves, Dwarves, and Little Folk seem to have a monoculture, even if in fact they really do not.

Xathan · January 26, 2012, 04:38:05 PM

Quote from: Señor Leetz
However, during the Elven Wars and the wars between the Dwarves and Elves even earlier, I suppose that the cultures were much more homogeneous than they are now. Foreign enemies would cause a Race to unite, despite the difference within said Race. But once the Elven Wars were over, the conflicts within each race were directed inward instead of outward.

That makes sense - you can probably draw historical analogies to prove that this would happen. Glad to hear that's mostly in the past, though. :)

QuoteAs for the monocultures - yes and no.

Will there be sub-races amongst the non-Human races? Probably not.

As much as I love sub-races (which is far too much), I'm glad to hear that - unless they serve a purpose, they tend to provide only clutter.

QuoteBut will there be different factions, kingdoms, organizations, and religions within each? Most definitely. The Dwarves are divided into family clans and often fight amongst each other over centuries-old insults and transgressions while the Elves are also divided into various tribes, each trying to sway the High King. And Humans are not a monoculture either, it's just that the setting focuses on one of many Human kingdoms, which may make it seem like they are.

I love this, and would love to see more of it. I kind of figured part of it was that you were focusing on an isolated area at first, but having confirmation of that is nice. :)

QuoteHowever, at the moment this is a Human-centric setting, and to most Humans in the setting, the Elves, Dwarves, and Little Folk seem to have a monoculture, even if in fact they really do not.

Hah, so Humans are a bit racist. I'm a fan of that. :P

All in all, still loving this setting - it's warm and comfortable but still good, earning its name, and unlike some d20 settings (including mine) it doesn't try to be a kitchen sink. In other words: I like, want more. :D

O Senhor Leetz · January 26, 2012, 07:35:55 PM

Quote from: Xathan Back Again
QuoteHowever, at the moment this is a Human-centric setting, and to most Humans in the setting, the Elves, Dwarves, and Little Folk seem to have a monoculture, even if in fact they really do not.

Hah, so Humans are a bit racist. I'm a fan of that. :P

Haha, racist - once again, yes and no.

This isn't going to be a Forgotten Realms-esque setting where the great cities are multi-cultural and all the key races get along well and can meet at a tavern and throw down a few mugs of ale.

What I have in mind is that they so-called Great Kin (Elves, Dwarves, and Humans) each, for the most part, keep to their own respective kingdoms and lands, maybe trading occasionally, but for the most part, Races really don't understand each othe much. Humans might think that all Dwarves, men and women, have beards (they don't), Dwarves might think that Elves are immortal (they're not), and Elves might think that Humans only live for 20 or so years before they die (they don't).

As for the Little Kin (Halflings and Gnomes), they obviously have their own unique cultures and histories, but for the most part, the Great Kin really don't care too much about them, regardless of their capabilities.

As for the Half-Orcs and Half-Elves I'm still on the fence. Half-Elves are pretty obvious, but I think they're going to be very rare and very much outsiders. Orcs exist, but I'm not sure where yet. Maybe there could be rumors of a "violent, strange-colored people coming from the South."

And as always, thanks for the comments dude!

Xeviat · January 26, 2012, 07:49:03 PM

Quick question: are player groups going to be able to be multi-racial? Having the races be largely independent does mean multi-racial groups would have very interesting consequences and possible hurdles to overcome. I like that notion, and it does feel very medieval. In England, a Frenchman would stand out like a sore thumb, after all. Heck, even today, I work at Disneyland and you can tell the difference between a Southern Californian on their 80th trip to the park and a Japanese tourist on their 1st trip. As I'm apt to do, I'm thinking of stealing this, as it does strengthen that medieval feel.

O Senhor Leetz · January 26, 2012, 08:01:15 PM

Quote from: Xeviat
Quick question: are player groups going to be able to be multi-racial? Having the races be largely independent does mean multi-racial groups would have very interesting consequences and possible hurdles to overcome. I like that notion, and it does feel very medieval. In England, a Frenchman would stand out like a sore thumb, after all. Heck, even today, I work at Disneyland and you can tell the difference between a Southern Californian on their 80th trip to the park and a Japanese tourist on their 1st trip. As I'm apt to do, I'm thinking of stealing this, as it does strengthen that medieval feel.

I think adventuring parties will be the exception to the rule. Adventurers are already unique within society, even their own respective societies, so having multi-cultural adventuring parties in a way makes more sense than not.

And I like the Frenchman analogy, that hits the mark. I had a mental image of a Dwarven mule train coming into to town for their yearly trade and it being a very, very big deal. All the kids get to see the funny Bearded Folk!

EDIT: I'm fairly content with the way that races panned out, but now I should probably start thinking about how to make the Classes of D&D work with this setting. Suggestions?

EDIT EDIT: And by Classes, I'm referring to Fighter, Rogue, Wizard, Paladin, and Cleric, the five that make the most sense in the area I'm currently imagining. Prestige Classes are also a go, but tailored, once again, to the immediate area of the setting.

Xeviat · January 26, 2012, 08:16:02 PM

One thing that would feel very classic, but also not be confining, is if you made different magical traditions the "property" of different races. If elves train wizards, dwarves train druids, and humans train clerics (all for instances), but any race can be them when it comes to adventurers, you could spice things up. Go back to the 2E race/class lists maybe, or something like that.

I'll go dig through more of this thread, because I haven't digested it fully, and see what I can suggest. But based on what I have read, I think elves should very much not be clerics anymore, since they forsook them in the past.

Which classes were you hoping on going with? I'd recommend the 3EPHB set, but that's only because of my ever-growing fondness for them.

O Senhor Leetz · January 26, 2012, 08:23:53 PM

Quote from: Xeviat
One thing that would feel very classic, but also not be confining, is if you made different magical traditions the "property" of different races. If elves train wizards, dwarves train druids, and humans train clerics (all for instances), but any race can be them when it comes to adventurers, you could spice things up. Go back to the 2E race/class lists maybe, or something like that.

I'll go dig through more of this thread, because I haven't digested it fully, and see what I can suggest. But based on what I have read, I think elves should very much not be clerics anymore, since they forsook them in the past.

Which classes were you hoping on going with? I'd recommend the 3EPHB set, but that's only because of my ever-growing fondness for them.

I was toying with that myself, but I think I may make the restrictions more along the lines of fluff than crunch. For instance, Dwarves can be Wizards, but it's going to need a good backstory.

As for Classes, I'm right with you on the 3E set. I edited an earlier post and mentioned I wanted to focus on Fighters, Wizards, Clerics, and Rogues for the immediate setting are, as, to me at least, Classes kind of bring with them "cultural prerequisites" - Sorcerers need a history with lots of strange bloodlines, Druids need a society or culture with a tradition of nature worship, etc. But, as I develop this area, I will be more than willing to fit in other Classes if they work. But, just like the Race-Class issue, a player can be anything anywhere as long as it makes sense.

Xeviat · January 26, 2012, 11:03:57 PM

Yeah, I wasn't saying to make it in the crunch, just that there are "no" dwarven wizards that aren't PCs or hugely big-deal npcs.

You could definitely go with just the core four. I only proponent the other 7 (actually, I like to sub out the sorcerer and port in psion and soulknife) because I like the culture they have in D&D. You can very much create your own cultural hybrid classes. Really, Bard, Paladin, and Ranger don't fit into every setting. Barbarian and Monk can just be specialist Fighters and Rogues. Not hard. What is hard is imagining a setting without Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard.

O Senhor Leetz · January 26, 2012, 11:19:55 PM

Quote from: Xeviat
Yeah, I wasn't saying to make it in the crunch, just that there are "no" dwarven wizards that aren't PCs or hugely big-deal npcs.

You could definitely go with just the core four. I only proponent the other 7 (actually, I like to sub out the sorcerer and port in psion and soulknife) because I like the culture they have in D&D. You can very much create your own cultural hybrid classes. Really, Bard, Paladin, and Ranger don't fit into every setting. Barbarian and Monk can just be specialist Fighters and Rogues. Not hard. What is hard is imagining a setting without Cleric, Fighter, Rogue, Wizard.

I was always a big fan of the original four too, but I think I'm going to leave the Core 3E Classes in, but in varying levels of presence. Monks are obviously rare to point of non-existant, but I can see Rangers and Paladins easily fitting in, depending on the culture, as well as Bards and Sorcerers to a lesser extent.

But I'm going to steer clear of the psychic Classes, as I think that will clash heavily with the quasi-realistic Medieval vibe I'm aiming for.

Xeviat · January 26, 2012, 11:33:54 PM

No problem; the psychic classes really have little place in traditional fantasy anyway; the psion steps on the wizards toes too.

O Senhor Leetz · January 26, 2012, 11:46:05 PM

However, I was debating about splitting the Arcane spell-list between Sorcerers and Wizards (on the other hand, as I've mentioned, I don't think Sorcerers are going to have a key role in the current area of the setting), giving the Sorcerer more artillery type spells and the Wizard more utilitarians. It always bothered me, more so than normal, that Sorcerers and Wizards, while both spellcasters, and who theoretically draw their power from entirely different sources, manage to cast the exact same spells. WotC even took some time to differentiate Clerics, Druids, Rangers, Paladins, and even Bards, but Wizards and Sorcerers - same exact spells!

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