Races that aren't just human stereotypes

Drizztrocks · February 07, 2012, 09:31:04 PM

Heys guys, i've been lurking forever, but this thread drove me to come out of the creativity closet.
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I love what you're doing, and if I commited to a setting I would approach it in a way very similar. I understand
the desire to explain things scientifically in the setting, not to mention its fun.
Dwarves
Dwarves evolving from badgers is a great idea. You have alot of room to make them different from humans, because they evolved from a fundamentally different animal. Emotions we take for granted like envy, disgust, curiosity and pride might not apply to badger-dwarves. Any resemblance to humanlike emotions might only be due to exposure to human culture. This would not only make dwarf culture substantially different from that of humans, but explain the usual fantasy tropes about dwarves. Humans would see dwarves as just short, stubborn humans who pay no attention to the outside world. In reality, dwarves might not be able to even comprehend certain human emotions that lead to human habits that become pillars of our culture (dressing and behaving to attract the opposite sex, the pursuit of new ideas and technologies, the need for socialization and peer approval). Certain things common with humans, like jumping, might seem ridiculous to a race of stocky burrowing people, if they're even capable of it.

Obviously you wouldn't want to make them to alien, or they would just be badgers that look like naked little people.

Halflings
Halflings pyschology being very close to human's could work better then you might think. Certain things might be identical, like general social patterns and day night cycles. They would be driven by the same things: sexual attraction, curiosity, desire to better one's place in society. And I imagine physically they are very similar to humans, except much shorter and more agile, longers limbs and digits, and a jaw adapted to breaking through hard nutshells and fruitskin. They might have a strong digestive system from digesting some rougher fruits. Maybe they can eat other plant matter like leaves and grass, even if it isn't favored. This would make it very easy and cheap to feed a group of migrant Halflings.
The prehensile tail, diet and height would be the things that divide humans from halflings. You have alot of potential for racism and social injustice, especially if Halfling migrant workers and refugees take alot of human jobs. And again, it lets you explain a fantasy trope. Humans consider Halflings to be natural tricksters and thieves, when in reality oppression has driven them to poverty and forced them to have to sneak and steal to survive. Its not hard to imagine (given their natural talent) guilds of Halfling thieves leading large scale heists on wealthy humans. They might be justified, but they also strengthen human resentment of their people.

Just curious about a few other things: do you have another thread for information on this setting? What system will you use, if at all? What do the tritons look like, what do they use to get around the ocean? Have you thought about elves?

Superfluous Crow · February 08, 2012, 05:14:34 AM

Most of my races are built around a semi-philosophical concept and often end up being rather strange. For an example, see the ongoing construction of my Yghreb race in the Broken Verge thread (spelled Verse in the thread title for confusing and pun-ish reasons). They are basically primitive adaptive shapechangers who can change to survive in (almost) any environment, but their superior physique helps them little in the cities. Their entire culture and psychology being focused on the idea of survival, they are now trying to blend into human cities by masquerading as humans. For them it's about more than just looking different though, as their entire body is changing and evolving to become incrementally more human-like. Essentially, they are destroying themselves to survive, which is sort of the central paradox of their race.
It's like a retooled version of transhumanism - would humanity really have succeeded if we had to become machines to succeed? The Yghreb are so consumed by the thought of racial survival that they are blinded to the fact that they won't be their own race anymore by the time they succeed. Or are they the ones being reasonable, making a sacrifice for the greater good of their people and their families by giving up their very identity? Looks matter little to them since they originally all looked different anyway, never adapting in quite the same way.

Xathan · February 08, 2012, 11:46:59 AM

I love the alternate evolutionary histories of various races - if you want to sit down and brainstorm on that at some point, I'd be more than happy, since I've taken a ton of time on "speculative biology." (BTW, if you're not familiar with it, Halflings actually existed at some point in history)

I do think dwarves evolving from badgers is really interesting - but you need a transitional step. Going from a badger to a less-hairy humanoid that is essentially upright is a huge jump. Same applies for tritons - fish that developed into humanoid forms and are the only example of such are difficult to swallow with the new sci-fi-ish approach you're taking. That being said, I think this allows for even more cool creatures - you'd need badgers and "fish" (might want to pick a particular type) that evolved into something that served as a transitional phase, similar to the relationship humans have with apes. You don't need "monkeylike badgers" or "Apelike fish" - you just need some class of creatures that would reasonably represent creatures that follows a similar evolutionary path prior to gaining intelligence. This isn't hugely difficult to justify - exactly 2 groups of creatures (the Theropods and the Hominids) attempted bipedalism as a mode of movement, and those are 2 of the biggest evolutionary success stories in terms of rapid proliferation (if not necessarily survivability, since the avians are the only remaining Theropods and only one species of hominids remains today). Going this route will also help you develop the psychology of the race - if badgers began going bipedal as part of building dens in caves they discovered, so they could reach moss/creatures on the ceiling, and began using their powerful forearms (originally intended for digging) to also manipulate objects and fight, that would leave some interesting psychological artifacts (I'd assume - I'm not so good with the psychology)

Of course, that's only if this sort of thing is something you're into. If you don't want those kind of creatures, it's perfectly valid to say "The related species, aside from the ones that are intelligent, are now extinct" and be done with it. That's just my kind of thing :P

beejazz · February 08, 2012, 12:02:59 PM

I'm kind of liking the idea of the tool using badgers you've got there. But the bugs on the cave ceiling has me wondering whether dwarves would have developed two-foot-tongues, and whether grubs and the like would remain in their diet.

Something a little dwarfier might be that they stumbled into deep cavern complexes and had to begin building dens instead of just burrowing. To evade predators. So collecting rocks after digging for the sake of building shelters would be the early tool use. Engineering is in their blood, as is a level of dwarfy xenophobia.

Diet would be pretty central to whether they moved around or settled down as well. Building dwarves need an excuse for something like agriculture early on.

Xathan · February 08, 2012, 12:18:26 PM

Quote from: beejazz
I'm kind of liking the idea of the tool using badgers you've got there. But the bugs on the cave ceiling has me wondering whether dwarves would have developed two-foot-tongues, and whether grubs and the like would remain in their diet.

It depends on order of evolution - if they had developed enough intelligence/manual dexterity where very primitive tool use was possible, sticks wrapped in spider silk would be a quicker way of getting at bugs on the ceiling than evolution eventually giving them a two-foot-tongue: for real world examples, look at the anteater and the chimpanzee. The former evolved a two foot tongue because it couldn't manage tool use, while the latter peels sticks to poke down anthills. Two ways of solving the same problem, but since chimpanzees were intelligent enough to figure out such a basic tool, they didn't need to evolve the longer tongue to do so.

QuoteSomething a little dwarfier might be that they stumbled into deep cavern complexes and had to begin building dens instead of just burrowing. To evade predators. So collecting rocks after digging for the sake of building shelters would be the early tool use. Engineering is in their blood, as is a level of dwarfy xenophobia.

Great example of early tool use, and gives a solid reason for permanent settlements for a burrowing race - especially if there were enough predatory animals that could burrow through loose soil.

QuoteDiet would be pretty central to whether they moved around or settled down as well. Building dwarves need an excuse for something like agriculture early on.

I like both of these points, especially the latter. The one example we have as truly sentient life (humanity) started off nomadic and eventually developed agriculture because it was easier - even if the Dwarven diet consisted only of grubs (which would be really, really cool) - agriculture and "bug farming" would develop, barring an external reason to stay mobile. Since a stable civilization kind of goes hand-in-hand with advanced technology, I'd advocate that agriculture would develop, if for no other reason than convenience.

Xeviat · February 12, 2012, 03:27:22 AM

Lots of stuff to comment on; that's what I get for taking a vacation, huh?

Survivorman

Which emotions do you think they may have not developed? Animals do show a range of emotions, but we could be projecting that upon them, as you say. I chose badgers, and not wolverines, because badgers are semi-social, but they're definitely not as social as primates. I'm up for suggestions on that one. Their drive to invent the new could be lower, while possibly having an inflated drive to perfect; they prefer to stay in the same place generation after generation, lacking what seems to be human's drive to explore. Why travel out when you can travel down.

Eating bugs would be a pretty shocking difference, and it would allow for very strange farms; instead of farming grain like humans, they'd probably farm some sort of quick growing plant to fertilize grub gardens. But we did go from being scavengers and opportunists to hunters; chimps eat ants, we don't eat many, after all.

On halflings, I am growing on the idea of having them be very similar, though with some twists in gender dynamics. Focusing on how they fit in with people will highlight their small differences. Their other differences do seem to be largely cultural, though I am going to stand behind giving them a wonky "fight or flight" response (to mimic the halfling's common "save vs. fear" bonus); halflings do not naturally experience irrational fear, they are not frightened by things bigger than them, and they're better able at getting their adrenaline pumping willfully.

I do have some threads, but most of them are old. The most recent restart is here, Endless Horizons. Elves are getting the fairy treatment; the Sidhe are the fey people of Avalon, human's analogs on this alternate plane. Long ago, some Sidhe were trapped on Terran, and over generations they became linked to Terran's plant-life and became today's Elves.

Tritons are a bit shorter than people and very torpedo shaped; they're round chested, to conserve on surface area. They have large eyes that appear to be entirely pupil (the rest of the eyeball is under skin). They have smooth mucus-y skin, though they have scales when they're young. They have large frilly gills on their necks, like some salamander's have. They have a large mouth, with no cheeks (lips open along the jawline, like a lizard or a frog), and many small sharp teeth which favor cutting (they interlock and overlap).

Tritons used to swim everywhere, but as they progressed they began to make ships. I'll post more in an Ecology article soon, as I'm almost finished with each race's starter page.

As for systems, I am planning on using D&D, but I'm waiting to see how 5E looks. Either way, I'll probably be altering the classes to fit with my world's elementalism.

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Super Crow
That's a really interesting way to handle shape changers. So their shape changing is actually working on their neurology too, not just their bodies?

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Xathan, I'd love to brainstorm with you. Hit me up on AIM or facebook, or here. I have to create tons of new animals for my setting, and I've only begun to scratch the surface with things like After Man and The Future is Wild.

I will definitely have a transitional step, but there is also the genetic tinkering of the ancients to consider. Either way, most cats, dogs, and bears died out before now, and I figure rodents and mustelids would be prime candidates to replenish those niches. Wolverines that have more of a gorilla-like structure would be terrifying, as would more bearlike ones at that. I do like the implications on their building and tool use. Being burrowers, bipedalism would definitely have evolved from tool use, and not the "standing hypothesis" that I'm familiar with for humans; standing would serve little purpose in burrows, unless they were venturing into natural caves or living in the burrows of larger creatures. But turning powerful digging arms into arms used for moving rocks to create more impenetrable dens (to protect them from worse burrowers) could have lead to their clans growing bigger and social relationships becoming more important.

Tritons are going to present the most interesting fodder for creating new animals. I think going all the way back to fish would be best for Tritons, as amphibians don't live in salt-water. It may be easier to justify an amphibian returning to the sea and then evolving, but either way we are going far back the evolutionary tree to create a new intelligent hominid. I could go either way, having them come from fish or come from amphibians. I don't want them to be sharks, though ... but that could pass. Sharks have been around for a very long time with little change, though; but then again, all fish and amphibians are that way.

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Beejazz
Definitely, on many points (except the tongue one, lol). I like learning to fortify their dens as a reason for the evolution of hands, and then larger social groups could lead to larger intelligence. This does mean I need some pretty nasty burrowing predators, maybe those bear-like wolverines. I also like the idea of them settling down and building largely underground farms (though without magitrophic life, they're still going to need use something from the surface to fertilize those farms). Hunting and Gathering did get us humans pretty far, after all.

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On agriculture, I do like the image of dwarf farms looking very different. Maybe they could grow rooty vegetables and fast growing weedy plants; the roots are for feeding something pig-like (rich food), and the weeds are for fertilizing their mushroom/bug farms (poor food). I don't have to keep them largely carnivorous, but I want the races to have different diets (and I currently have 3 carnivores, 2 herbivores, 1 lacto-ovo omnivore, and quite a few other omnivores).

Agriculture is such an early technological advancement that I cannot see any way for any of the races to lack it. Now, maybe humans figured it out first, but I'd think the others would learn it quickly. They'd probably do it differently, based on their dietary needs (carnivores would be concerned with making what their herds eat), or cultural (elves replant orchards when trees in their ancient forests died, or maybe they'd learn how to graft trees).

Xathan · February 12, 2012, 03:01:57 PM

Quote
Xathan, I'd love to brainstorm with you. Hit me up on AIM or facebook, or here. I have to create tons of new animals for my setting, and I've only begun to scratch the surface with things like After Man and The Future is Wild.

I love both of those. I have a copy of After Man (got lucky and found it an estate sale, I wish they'd reprint the damn thing) have you actually read it? There's a few good blogs dedicated to speculative evolution and an entire forum I need to go back to dedicated to it. As for chatting, I'll poke you on AIM if I see you, but as a general rule if I'm on here I'm also in IRC.

QuoteI will definitely have a transitional step, but there is also the genetic tinkering of the ancients to consider. Either way, most cats, dogs, and bears died out before now, and I figure rodents and mustelids would be prime candidates to replenish those niches. Wolverines that have more of a gorilla-like structure would be terrifying, as would more bearlike ones at that. I do like the implications on their building and tool use. Being burrowers, bipedalism would definitely have evolved from tool use, and not the "standing hypothesis" that I'm familiar with for humans; standing would serve little purpose in burrows, unless they were venturing into natural caves or living in the burrows of larger creatures. But turning powerful digging arms into arms used for moving rocks to create more impenetrable dens (to protect them from worse burrowers) could have lead to their clans growing bigger and social relationships becoming more important.

Your logic is sound is all I can say for this right now, don't have anything to add or questions off the top of my head, I'll see if I can come up with some.

QuoteTritons are going to present the most interesting fodder for creating new animals. I think going all the way back to fish would be best for Tritons, as amphibians don't live in salt-water. It may be easier to justify an amphibian returning to the sea and then evolving, but either way we are going far back the evolutionary tree to create a new intelligent hominid. I could go either way, having them come from fish or come from amphibians. I don't want them to be sharks, though ... but that could pass. Sharks have been around for a very long time with little change, though; but then again, all fish and amphibians are that way.

If you want a simple route, a mammal that returned to sea would be easiest. If you're starting from scratch, all the way back to fish/amphibians that returned to sea, here's a second option: mollusks (particularly some kind of 4 tentacled cephalopod) that developed a cartilage and then finally calcium skeleton and gradually developed bipedalism when they were living an amphibious lifestyle. It's one of my favorite tricks to use, and gives you a whole new category of life to play with for interesting magical beasts/aberrations. (Details on the fish thing we'd have to discuss over a chat program, too many details there, but that way could still work very well.)

Xeviat · February 12, 2012, 07:12:29 PM

I bought After Man on amazon actually, it's right by my desk. I didn't know about a forum and blogs, though, so I'll cruise for those.

I don't see a mammal returning to sea to be the triton since tritons follow an amphibious larval development. I suppose a mammal could revert to a marsupial bent and have their eggs hatch before fully developed. Evolving cephalopods for a new family of creatures, though, would be cool, as they're very intelligent and only need to start evolving larger brains and social constructs to be kick started into becoming something more.

I'll see if you're on to chat fish, though. I forget how to get onto the IRC, though.

sparkletwist · February 12, 2012, 08:57:51 PM

Quote from: XeviatI forget how to get onto the IRC, though.

On the little top toolbar, click "IRC." Alternatively, just use this link.

It'll ask for a nickname, and have your forum name preloaded, which is probably what you want anyway. Click "Connect" and you'll automatically join.

Xathan · February 13, 2012, 12:06:39 PM

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I do have some threads, but most of them are old. The most recent restart is here, Endless Horizons. Elves are getting the fairy treatment; the Sidhe are the fey people of Avalon, human's analogs on this alternate plane. Long ago, some Sidhe were trapped on Terran, and over generations they became linked to Terran's plant-life and became today's Elves.

I missed this post and just want to say something - this is the first thing I've disliked. When every other race is getting the speculative evolution treatment, Elves as a fey race feels just...out of place. Why not have them evolve from mongooses, which would explain the agility, or a rodent (or rabbit), which would explain the ears and vision, or even a cat, which would cover all three of those traits. Or, for a non mammalian option, an arthropod with book lungs whose exoskeleton retreated under skin to form an endoskeleton and antennas became more closely related to/appearing like ears, with the extra set of limbs either still being present or atrophying from lack of use to the point where they'd only be visible via x-ray vision. Having them spend some time in Avalon post evolution would add an interesting twist here, giving them that Fey aspect as that plane altered them even further, but the core of the race still followed normal evolutionary rules like the rest of the core race.

beejazz · February 20, 2012, 11:28:31 AM

Just had a cool idea for the dwarves. They fish.

There's an intersection between the ocean and the underdark, with caverns that are flooded and drained with the tides. Many species that wouldn't otherwise become amphibious (there are your weird invertebrate monsters in all the caves) to avoid being stranded.

One example being trolls evolved from sharks. They've got huge noses and no eyes, navigating by smell. They've got short arms and legs, but jaws like (I think) goblin sharks, which can shoot forward after prey (and tear meat in small spaces where they can't wiggle side to side). Trolls aren't adapted to sunlight or fire, and can dry out quickly, leading to overworlders thinking that they turn to stone in the sun.

And there you've got the enemies dwarves had to stack stones against. Though the stones might be somewhat less useful against the occasional giant echinoderm.

Drizztrocks · February 22, 2012, 10:46:38 PM

Quote from: Xeviat
I bought After Man on amazon actually, it's right by my desk.

How much did you pay for it? I just checked and its like $60 for a used copy.

Superfluous Crow · February 23, 2012, 07:35:27 AM

I have no significant comments to make at this moment, but I just wanted to say that...
blind goblin-shark cave trolls = pure awesome

Xeviat · February 23, 2012, 10:30:57 PM

Quote from: Survivorman
Quote from: Xeviat
I bought After Man on amazon actually, it's right by my desk.

How much did you pay for it? I just checked and its like $60 for a used copy.

On consulting my bookshelf, I have "Future Evolution", not "After Man". I is sad.

I also like goblin-shark cave trolls.

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Races that aren't just human stereotypes

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