X20 reboot

Xeviat · January 21, 2013, 11:59:54 PM

For instance, the BoIM maneuver system had "boost damage" as an option, which was +1 damage for every -2 to attack. Thus, "improved boost damage" was power attack: -1 to hit for +1 damage. Likewise, "knockdown" is a -20 penalty (remember, this is ontop of a normal attack), while the "Improved Trip" feat is (forgive me if I'm wrong) one attack for trip with a bonus, followed by an extra attack.

Also, the maneuver system had drawbacks. Provokes attack of opportunity fromt he target is a -5 penalty reduction (-10 if a successful AoO cancels the maneuver). Effects only is a -5 penalty reduction. Opposed check, and Reflective Attack all exist too: The standard trip maneuver in the PHB is built as "knockdown (-20), effects only (+5), opposed check (+5), Attack of Opportunity, target only (+5), and reflective attack (+5)". Improved trip removes the attack of opportunity, removes the reflective attack, and gives a bonus attack if successful; this can be reverse engineered into an "improved maneuver" feat.

Now, I'd advise prebuilding maneuvers, just like spells, so the game doesn't slow down.

sparkletwist · January 22, 2013, 03:12:26 PM

Wow, with those drawbacks, it takes a lot of the maneuvers that might be worthless and makes them almost too good. I mean, the rules even say as much, with a whole lot of "well you might not want to do this" and "don't let players do this all the time" and stuff like that. It honestly comes across as pretty mealymouthed and just one step away from "hey, let players do whatever they want, as long as it makes sense and doesn't break the game" which is... well... how D&D works anyway.

I personally really prefer the more reductionist approach to maneuvers of systems like FATE, where you basically just do something that fits the fluff of the moment, and then someone later on can "tag" the effect of that maneuver for a bonus, without getting into a lot of the gritty details of what exactly was done to whom and where. It is, admittedly, a little more dissociative, and might not suit a "crunchier' system like D&D.

Quote from: WeaveThe Rogue won't actually be as bad by virtue of people capping out at 6 (being the "skill monkey" gets progressively worse after level, like, 8, when spellcasters can just dominate folks or fly or whatever), but they also aren't great damage-dealers, even with sneak attack.

It's not that terrible, but sneak attack is absolutely essential.

A level 5 sword and board fighter (+5 BAB, str 20, -2 due to power attack) with flanking has a +10 attack bonus, as does a level 5 finesse rogue (+3 BAB, dex 20) who is also flanking, so I won't mess with factoring in hit odds and crits and such and just figure damage. They'll both probably be using d8 weapons. So, the fighter will be doing d8 + 5 + 4, or an average of 13.5 damage. The rogue, when he makes a sneak attack, will be doing d8 + 3d6, or an average of 15 damage. If he's got a small strength bonus adding to damage, it'll be more like 16 or 17. Of course, the rogue's damage becomes paltry when he can't make his sneak attacks, and Pathfinder removed some tricky (or, dare I say, sneaky...) ways you could get sneak attacks in D&D (grease spells, ranged attacks, and such) so there's that. If we assume the fighter does his damage every round, and the rogue only gets sneak attack half the time, that's 27 over two rounds for the Fighter, and only 20.5 for the Rogue, so you really do have to sneak attack.

Xathan · January 22, 2013, 11:33:41 PM

So general consensus on Fighters seems to be "They Need Fixing!" Figuring out how is the tricky part. Tons of good ideas here, and I need to chew on some of them - fraid I can't give everyone the reply they deserve here, but I'll do my best.

Hippopatamus, I like the idea of giving them their second attack earlier at a lower penalty - the question is, will my OCD let me do that for only one class? I'll try and see how that works for me - hopefully I can resist that, and it works out.

Xeviat: I like the maneuvers but have trouble seeing how that wouldn't become a balance nightmare. I'm going to be putting that into a "for later" category - I want to add them, but feel doing them early on will bog me down. If I do, I'd go with your suggestion they be pre-built to prevent too many balance issues...which means I'd be making a whole knew spell list. I'm actually reminded more of Arcana Unearthed's Martial Maneuvers, which might fit better.

Sparkle: Some of those are going in as feats, and Preternatural Focus as a class skill makes perfect sense as opposed to just being a feat, since it's good for every fighter. I'm also thinking weapon focus and weapon specialization are gained as bonus feats automatically by every fighter (in addition to regular things at particular levels) and apply to a group of weapons (swords, maces, bows, crossbows, etc) as opposed to a single weapon to broaden their focus.

Talking about weapon focus gave me an idea as well - any weapon wielded by a fighter that has focus in that weapon could be used to inflict a condition (vs a fort save DC = 10+Fighters Attack Bonus) instead of damage. Things like bleed, dazed (big old mace to the head), slowed (arrow to the knee)...stuff like that. It'd be a special "Fighter Only" portion of those feats. Thoughts?

Kindling: I'm hesitant to directly boost BAB, worried about getting into "I never miss" territory - I don't want people with +10 BAB on top of everything else running around, y'know?

Weave: I am 100% behind adding a few more bonus feats to monks, but I feel rogues function pretty well as is, so long as they can manage to sneak attack (as sparkle's math shows). Of course, once things have been beefed a bit more we'll see, but for now I'll keep the class as is. As for Paladins, I'll probably adjust their new heals to not be as good when used to self-heal to keep them from becoming too monstrous. ;)

As for Fighters, I honestly considered splitting the class into three - melee dude, tanky dude, and archer - but decided against it. I do like the idea of adding some of their trees to the class - maybe at levels when they don't gain a regular fighter bonus feat, they get a "useful to every fighter but still fighter focused" bonus feat?

Some more (non-fighter) stuff to come in next couple of days, largely depending on how busy work is (I get most of my writing done these days between calls.)

Weave · January 23, 2013, 04:10:36 PM

Quote from: sparkletwist

Quote from: WeaveThe Rogue won't actually be as bad by virtue of people capping out at 6 (being the "skill monkey" gets progressively worse after level, like, 8, when spellcasters can just dominate folks or fly or whatever), but they also aren't great damage-dealers, even with sneak attack.
It's not that terrible, but sneak attack is absolutely essential.

A level 5 sword and board fighter (+5 BAB, str 20, -2 due to power attack) with flanking has a +10 attack bonus, as does a level 5 finesse rogue (+3 BAB, dex 20) who is also flanking, so I won't mess with factoring in hit odds and crits and such and just figure damage. They'll both probably be using d8 weapons. So, the fighter will be doing d8 + 5 + 4, or an average of 13.5 damage. The rogue, when he makes a sneak attack, will be doing d8 + 3d6, or an average of 15 damage. If he's got a small strength bonus adding to damage, it'll be more like 16 or 17. Of course, the rogue's damage becomes paltry when he can't make his sneak attacks, and Pathfinder removed some tricky (or, dare I say, sneaky...) ways you could get sneak attacks in D&D (grease spells, ranged attacks, and such) so there's that. If we assume the fighter does his damage every round, and the rogue only gets sneak attack half the time, that's 27 over two rounds for the Fighter, and only 20.5 for the Rogue, so you really do have to sneak attack.

Maybe it's just my experience, but I've more often seen fighters with bastard or greatswords than, say, a longsword or something. d8 is about the highest damage dice a rogue can get (might be wrong on that), but d8 is pretty midrange for a fighter.

Sneak Attack is certainly essential; there's no doubting that. I didn't mean to imply SA was somehow bad - the rogue as a general package is bad. SA does wonders for them, but it's not enough. Then again, I'm also not one to advocate rogues being super bursty damage-dealers, rather just being really scoundrel-ly acrobats and thieves, so I'm not convinced SA or their damage is actually a problem - it just doesn't contribute strongly enough to make them all that relevant later in the game despite having a mechanic that would imply so.

I had seen an alternative use for the speciality at skills by allowing them to use skills to mimic spells effects - like a rogue (and only a rogue) could roll well enough on, say, a diplomacy check to use the spell suggestion on them, or for Stealth to actually have them go invisible, or something. I thought it was pretty cool, but it'd need a fair DC and a set number of times per day they could utilize it. I don't know if that's something you;d be interested in, Xathan, but I might be able to go digging for you!

HippopotamusDundee · January 23, 2013, 09:46:57 PM

As far as Rogue possibilities go, altering the movement system so 5-foot steps are allowed only while unencumbered and unarmoured unless you are a rogue (who can take them in Light armour and with Light encumbrance) might help. Also folding the split movement action of Spring Attack so it's just a rogue ability might help.

Xeviat · January 23, 2013, 10:21:00 PM

I'd advise against using 3E's BAB's; just have everyone grow at +1 per level, and have warriors (former bab+1/level classes) get a +1 bonus at first level. When you're only dealing with six levels, the differences are small (+6, +4, +3), but the rogue would really be helped out by getting any boost they can.

Then again, rogues rarely attack normally. They attack with flanking (+2 to attack) or vs. flat-footed (no Dex), so perhaps their low attack bonuses don't affect them much.

As for Hippo's spring attack suggestion, many systems just have that as part of the rules. Heck, I can peak out from behind a wall, fire a nerf gun, and then hide.

Xathan · January 24, 2013, 12:21:04 AM

Xeviat: I'm keeping BAB as is, because changing everyone to a +6 at level 6 has some serious implications that would require major rebalancing:

1) one of the few things that keep casters in check is the need for touch attack rolls. WIth the extra BAB, those touch attacks would need to be all reworked.

2) If I'm trying to keep the fighter from falling too far behind, boosting it up where a wizard/cleric/etc will be close to as good as a fighter with a weapon the fighter doesn't have the right feats in (or at least, will be 15% closer) kind of kills that.

3) It'd mean everyone would get an iterative attack, which I want to keep as a perk for the pure martial classes (Fighter/Paladins/Barbarians and any related classes)

4) It makes Dex the most ultimate of the ultimate stats ever with weapon finess, allowing it to cover pretty much all rogue attacks at even 10% higher.

5) Pathfinder tied BAB to HD (low gets 1d6, medium gets 1d8, high gets 1d10 or occasionally 1d12) and I like how natural that feels to me.

6) I feel like everyone gets same BAB/saves/skill points type systems feel a bit too homogenous.

7) Above all else: I'm lazy. I really don't want to spend hours and hours fiddling with every little class and system trying to get everything perfect balance. In fact, this seques nicely into a little rant:

[spoiler=WARNING: RANT IN HERE]I BELIEVE BALANCE IS A SACRED COW

True balance, 100% every class is balanced in terms of damage output and such over the course of most fights, is something RPGs always seem to strive for. And I think it drives RPG writers to become Mike Mearls: after all, the easiest way to make sure everyone is special is to make sure no one is. I'm fine with the fact that in some situations the Wizard will shine more than the Fighter, the Rogue will outshine the Cleric, the Cleric will outshine the Wizard, the Fighter will outshine the Wizard. (Which is part of why I'm so willing to rework the fighter, because the fighter rarely gets those moments, especially compared to the higher damage dealing barbarian and the better meatshield paladin). But rogues are masters of subterfuge and sneaking and all that. If they underpreform in combat statistically compared to some other classes...I'm okay with this. If I'm playing a rogue, I'm not worried about my DPR (damage per round) - I'm worried about my ability to scout, stealth, find traps, steal, etc. And sure, i want to be able to at times creep up behind a guy and one shot him with a well timed sneak attack, but if I fail to match another class in how much damage I'm doing...not a huge problem unless there is a vast gulf. That's part of why I like the level 6 cap - sure, the wizard can turn invisible which totally overrule rogue stealth, but can only do it for about half a minute, whereas I can sneak all day long. When I'm comes to balance, I'm more worried about "Does class X fail to do what it should do best?" Does the wizard fail as a caster? Does the sorcerer fail as a caster that feels at least slightly different from the wizard? Does the Fighter fail at being the badass normal with a weapon? Does the rogue fail at being a sneaky underhanded dude? (I feel the answers to that are No, Slightly, Yes, No, in order.) So keep the feedback coming and I do love reading the statistical damage output of rogues vs fighters vs wizards vs X and all that...but keep in mind that such tweaking will come later on once I've gotten a workable beta of a system together. The other area of balance I'm worried about are godmode combinations - things that give you ulimited spells in a single round or pun-pun or hulking hurlers throwing around planetoids or any other build that breaks the game entirely.[/spoiler]

Hippo: Doing so seems god on the surface, but totally gimps any Fighter that wants to use a reach weapon...and we're avoiding gimping fighters, or at least trying to. Giving Rogues a limited spring attack as a trick they could pick up (perhaps one that reduces the chances of attacks of opprotunity to make up for a slower movement speed) seems like a good idea - one I'd fold into the rogue bag of tricks.

Weave: I'd love to see that system. Either I could fold it into rogues, or I could make it part of another, later class, or make it something that could be picked up by legendary characters...please, do share!

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Now, I know I promised feats and post 6 advancements, but I realized I first need to go over existing feats more to have a better idea what basis I'm working from - I typically make skill monkies or casters, so my feat knowledge is...not as extensive of my knowledge of other areas of the rules. So that's going to be delayed some. However, some samples of things I intend on doing with feats:

All Legendary Feats can be taken once you've already reached level 6.

Feats such as acrobatic, stealthy, awarness, will all get a legendary version that gives you a minimum roll for that skill - each feat can be taken twice, meaning that when rolling the affected skill you treat any roll 1-4 as a 5 at teir one and then any rol 1-9 as a 10 at teir two - essentially meaning you always are taking 10. (The first rank of this cost 5000xp, the second costs 10000xp - it's not a cheap thing to manage)

A Legendary Fighter feat as part of the weapon focus chain means that, with that group of weapon, your minimum roll is a 5 - and you never fumble.

A Legendary Fighter feat that opens some manuvers suitable to your favored weapon catagory as per Xeviat's suggestions.

A Legendary feat that gives you access to those tricks sparkle mentioned on page 1 for fighters - and only fighters can do them in heavier than light armor. (The Veteran Adventurer feat).

A Ranger feat that gives you that minimum attack roll fighters have when going against a favored enemy.

An Arcane Caster feat that lets you get a single level one spell at will.

A divine caster feat that lets you heal an ally whenever you apply a buff to them.

Feats that let you pick up additional rogue tricks.

Sorcerer/Bard feats that give you an extra spell known (These build in teirs - you have to have this feat 3 times for a level 1 spell to get it for a level 2 spell)

Multiclass Feats to create some late-game gishes and support gishing - although plenty of classes will gish it up.

And more!

Weave · January 24, 2013, 04:11:57 PM

I'll see what I can find, Xathan!

Also, in response to your rant: I'm sure I triggered some of that incidentally, and I apologize for that. I firmly share your beliefs about "true balance" being boring and something that shouldn't be striven for, and I think that, aside from being a little dull every now and then, the Fighter is well-balanced as is. He serves a role of front-line combatant better than most, and while spellcasters get loads more versatility, they still need someone/thing between them and the big bruiser their trying to turn into a frog. I was trying to illustrate that the monk and rogue were, debatably, underpowered despite the fact and may need a boost to make them a little better at what they generally do - my goal was not to compare DPR or other statistics, and it got close to becoming that.

Anyways, I have faith you'll take this in a good direction based on what I've seen. Good luck!

Xathan · January 24, 2013, 11:24:00 PM

Quote from: Weave
I'll see what I can find, Xathan!

Also, in response to your rant: I'm sure I triggered some of that incidentally, and I apologize for that. I firmly share your beliefs about "true balance" being boring and something that shouldn't be striven for, and I think that, aside from being a little dull every now and then, the Fighter is well-balanced as is. He serves a role of front-line combatant better than most, and while spellcasters get loads more versatility, they still need someone/thing between them and the big bruiser their trying to turn into a frog. I was trying to illustrate that the monk and rogue were, debatably, underpowered despite the fact and may need a boost to make them a little better at what they generally do - my goal was not to compare DPR or other statistics, and it got close to becoming that.

Anyways, I have faith you'll take this in a good direction based on what I've seen. Good luck!

Actually, the rant wasn't directed at anyone in particular or triggered by anything. I just was getting myself far to stressed about individual class balance and had to do that to avoid panicking and dropping the project altogether. I hope I didn't offend or scare anyone off...I just needed to make sure I keep myself focused on the goal, and needed a button I could click to remind myself of it.

...I probably should have mentioned that yesterday when I posted it. I'm sorry if it offended anyone. I really, really need to not post when I'm stressed out that much. :(

Weave · January 24, 2013, 11:32:38 PM

Haha, no harm done :). I just wanted to apologize for potentially steering the thread in a different direction. Now, BACK TO X20 TINKERING!

Also, here it is: https://sites.google.com/site/triomegazero/kirthfinder

Check out the Rogue (or any classes, for that matter). Some have some really good ideas ripe for the picking.

Xathan · January 24, 2013, 11:36:48 PM

So...much...to...read. I know I'm doing with my night! :D Thanks a ton Weave.

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