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New Mechanics...Why?

Started by Soup Nazi, March 22, 2006, 03:12:19 PM

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Lmns Crn

#15
March 22, 2006, 09:18:32 PM
The short answer: Because I don't think the old ones fit my campaign setting.

I think that crunch exists to support fluff. As long as it does that adequately, it's fine. The crunch as provided by WotC does not do as good a job as I'd like in supporting the fluff I've written for the Jade Stage, so I've written my own. This is the severe readers' digest version of my rationale, and I can certainly expand more upon it if you'd like.

The other big reason I changed some mechanics was to sidestep some cliches (this involved primarily changing fluff, as well.)

Anyway, your quote in a recent post: "New crunch in a campaign setting should only be an enabler, or an afterthought to make the story work. The setting is important to me, not the mechanics of it," really sums up my own thoughts on the usage of new mechanics.

My setting is not all about new mechanics, but I'm not going to break my back to keep the WotC standard mechanics when my new ones suit me better.
I move quick: I'm gonna try my trick one last time--
you know it's possible to vaguely define my outline
when dust move in the sunshine

CYMRO

#16
March 22, 2006, 11:39:50 PM
Quote from: nastynateSo would you say Cymro, that you are almost at the point when you would just scrap the rules and start fresh?

You've already got your own publication coming up right?

Would your next step be a whole new game system of your own design?

(dang I'm nosy huh?)

No, the d20 framework and the OGL are pretty good.  My big bugaboo is the magic system, which has needed an overhaul since the late '70s.  Most of my other fixes are minor and cosmetic, the dropping of prcs, renaming of mixed races, defaulting pc races to TN, adjusting TWF, etc.

Some things in the d20/OGL cannot be improved upon in my opinion.  Though I am adding to Altvogge product identity alchemy, I find the skill system a thing of beauty, as well as opposed rolls for combat.

Soup Nazi

#17
March 23, 2006, 05:53:00 PM
Totally agrred on the skill system Cymro. I love its simple effectiveness.
The spoon is mightier than the sword

CYMRO

#18
March 24, 2006, 07:34:14 AM
Quote from: nastynateTotally agrred on the skill system Cymro. I love its simple effectiveness.

Opposed rolls rock.

I am also a fan of the point buy system.  

Soup Nazi

#19
March 24, 2006, 11:38:27 AM
Point buy is a cheap rip off of other games that have always had a balanced character generation system. I agree that it kicks butt, and I use it exclusively, but it's nothing new to me; it's just new to D&D (and about time I might add)
The spoon is mightier than the sword

Xathan

#20
March 24, 2006, 02:16:39 PM
I perfer rolling, personally: it makes things more interesting and adds an element of unpredictability.

And nothing is more satisfying that watching three sixes come up. :)
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Soup Nazi

#21
March 24, 2006, 02:29:06 PM
Rolling up stats only leads to advantages and disadvantages (based entirely upon luck) between your players. It's not fair to be penalized for hours and hours of game play, because you weren't as lucky as the guy sitting next to you...3 minutes of chance shouldn't have that kind of effect upon your character IMHO.

I don't fault those that like it...rolling stats is like gambling; it's fun and exciting. I want that element of chance in game, not out of game. I simply prefer my players all have a more (not perfect, but more) equal opportunity. Nothing is worse in my eyes, than some lucky SOB getting the best starting PC package, while the other players get punished with weaker characters.  

-Nasty-
The spoon is mightier than the sword

CYMRO

#22
March 24, 2006, 08:31:07 PM
Quote from: nastynateRolling up stats only leads to advantages and disadvantages (based entirely upon luck) between your players. It's not fair to be penalized for hours and hours of game play, because you weren't as lucky as the guy sitting next to you...3 minutes of chance shouldn't have that kind of effect upon your character IMHO.

I don't fault those that like it...rolling stats is like gambling; it's fun and exciting. I want that element of chance in game, not out of game. I simply prefer my players all have a more (not perfect, but more) equal opportunity. Nothing is worse in my eyes, than some lucky SOB getting the best starting PC package, while the other players get punished with weaker characters.  

-Nasty-


Which is exactly why I started using PB.  Too many times of watching a player roll all sixteens or higher, and waiting while the guy who rolled all eights and tens rerolls and rerolls until they get a decent character.

daggerhart

#23
March 24, 2006, 08:54:47 PM
im in total disagreement about the point-buy system.   its just rediculously unrealistic and un-fun.
everyone isn't as good as everyone else.   life isn't fair.
Quote from: nastynateRolling up stats only leads to advantages and disadvantages (based entirely upon luck) between your players. It's not fair to be penalized for hours and hours of game play, because you weren't as lucky as the guy sitting next to you.
It sounds like you guys are running into player problems.

Since the very first time i played dnd i understood that your stats are your character.
If you got a bad roll, you just made up background for your character to cover for it.   thats just good playing.

Sure, you may have 2 guys playing wizards, one with all 16s and one with all 10s...  and the guy with 16s is going to be significantly better than the guy with 10s.   but this is also a player problem.   the group should have gotten together and discussed everyone's role in the party before there was the conflict.    maybe the guy with 10s shouldnt have been a wizard, and he would be having more fun. (this making sense?)

I've found that a good group will take care of their character's role in the party w/o worrying about stats.  
We've played a LOT of different characters w/ diff stats/ and diff ways of generating those stats, and the PB system is probably my least favorite.    I feel that, by using the PB system you're removing one of the most important parts of the game, at the very beginning.  

That being 'luck'.
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CYMRO

#24
March 26, 2006, 01:44:17 AM
Quote from: daggerhartim in total disagreement about the point-buy system.   its just rediculously unrealistic and un-fun.
everyone isn't as good as everyone else.   life isn't fair.

It sounds like you guys are running into player problems.

Since the very first time i played dnd i understood that your stats are your character.
If you got a bad roll, you just made up background for your character to cover for it.   thats just good playing.

Sure, you may have 2 guys playing wizards, one with all 16s and one with all 10s...  and the guy with 16s is going to be significantly better than the guy with 10s.   but this is also a player problem.   the group should have gotten together and discussed everyone's role in the party before there was the conflict.    maybe the guy with 10s shouldnt have been a wizard, and he would be having more fun. (this making sense?)

I've found that a good group will take care of their character's role in the party w/o worrying about stats.  
We've played a LOT of different characters w/ diff stats/ and diff ways of generating those stats, and the PB system is probably my least favorite.    I feel that, by using the PB system you're removing one of the most important parts of the game, at the very beginning.  

That being 'luck'.

Unrealistic?  
No more so than rolling dice.
PB does not make all characters equal, what it does is establish a baseline for characters and for the DM.  In my experience a "lucky roller" can totally overwhelm encounters, especially at lower levels.  What you have then is no longer a fun group gaming experience, but several players playing second fiddle  to the superstar with all 17s and 18s.  This sucks for the other players.
With PB, no one will signicantly outshine everyone else.  No ubermensch to make the "regular characters" wonder why they bothered to play.


Oh, and in your example, the wizard with all tens is just a guy with no first level or higher spells and a crappy HD.  PB makes for more consistently satisfied players, human nature being what it is.

Xeviat

#25
March 26, 2006, 05:29:42 AM
The only problem with 25 Point Buy is that 4d6 drop the lowest gets you consistantly better scores. I like 28 point buy myself, or 32 point buy; but if you use anything higher than 28, you need to boost the power of monsters: give them default array stats without boosting their stats, and give them 32 point buy for +1 CR.

Sure, "all characters created equally" isn't realistic, but don't you remember that the PCs are exceptional? I don't think it would be fair for one player to play a 5 sixteens and one 18 monk (had it happen once) while another character's highest score is a 14. I've seen a bland all 14s character once, which was pretty rediculous actually.

Point buy allows players to craft the character they wanted to play, which is a definate improvement. Allow random chance in game, not out of the game.

My mana system is on track to be completely edited soon. Look forward to one alternate mechanic which many will appreciate.
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Soup Nazi

#26
March 26, 2006, 04:06:44 PM
I don't like 25 point buy either to honest...32 point buy will get something along the lines of 16,16,14,10,10,10 for stats which is far from overpowered in my humble opinion.

Point buy almost never results in carbon copy stats because each class requires different things to focus on. Nobody playing a barbarian is going to to have the same stats as a monk or paladin because the class abilities rely on different stats.

The system isn't perfect...it actually favors MAD characters, who can get a bunch of 14s, rather than say a wizard who wants an 18 intelligence at level one, but this drawback is far less problematic than the one Cymro pointed out...

-Nasty-
The spoon is mightier than the sword

Kalos Mer

#27
March 30, 2006, 12:05:08 PM
On the point-buy tangent, responding in particular to daggerhart, I don't think that having a player with substantially lower stats being dissatisfied with others in his party who are better than him in literally everything can be described as a simple 'player problem'.

D&D is a roleplaying game, of course, but it's one with a heavy statistical aspect.  I don't think it's fair to make somebody invest hours and hours into a game where there 'role' is to be the perpetually less-competent fellow.  A few very hardcore purist role-players might like that, but certainly not everyone.

In the real world, are there people who are better than everybody else at seemingly everything?  Yes - these people we call oligarchs. ;)

But this is a game.
My Setting:   

CYMRO

#28
March 30, 2006, 12:47:31 PM
Quote from: Kalos MerOn the point-buy tangent, responding in particular to daggerhart, I don't think that having a player with substantially lower stats being dissatisfied with others in his party who are better than him in literally everything can be described as a simple 'player problem'.

D&D is a roleplaying game, of course, but it's one with a heavy statistical aspect.  I don't think it's fair to make somebody invest hours and hours into a game where there 'role' is to be the perpetually less-competent fellow.  A few very hardcore purist role-players might like that, but certainly not everyone.

In the real world, are there people who are better than everybody else at seemingly everything?  Yes - these people we call oligarchs. ;)

But this is a game.

Well put.
For an Oligarch.   :king:

Kalos Mer

#29
March 30, 2006, 12:56:50 PM
On the greater matter at hand, I don't really understand.

Nasty, the point you seem to be arguing is that people either have to play an unaltered (or nearly so) D&D or else a different system completely their own?

Why can't 'their own' system be D&D with a few minor changes?  Am I missing something?

(After all, FR has the Shadow Weave, Eberron has action points, etc...)
My Setting:   
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