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Alternate Alignments Models

Started by Steerpike, March 29, 2013, 08:30:57 PM

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Steerpike

I was thinking about Raelifin's intriguing elemental system (Blood, Iron, Dust, Smoke, Frost) for City of the Chosen and also Light Dragon's alternate alignment model that got brought up in the Underdeep Discussion Thread, and I figured it was an interesting enough topic to merit it own thread.  I used to be a fierce critic of Alignment, but my position has become a bit less vitriolic in recent years, in certain contexts.  I'm not trying to start another big 'ol Alignment debate that devolves into a philosophical brawl about deontology vs. consequentialism or relativism vs. ethical naturalism.  What I am interested in is alternate interpretations of, models for, or variations on Alignment.  What different versions of Alignment, broadly construed, might make for a different and interesting roleplaying experience?  Are there ways of approaching Alignment that mitigate its substantial drawbacks, its crudeness?

[spoiler=Some old threads on Alignment]The Seven Elements (Ghostman's intriguing alignment/magic system for Savage Age, with pretty images to boot)
A Sense of Humor (Seraphine Harmonium's alignment system, based on the four humours)
Alignment (in particular check out Pellanor's epic post on the third page)
Alignment - to be or not to be?
Alignment: Relative or Absolute?
Good vs. Evil, Positive vs. Negative (Nomadic's thoughtful take on Alignment)
Explaining Alignment (this thread got a bit contentious and goes to weird places, but it has some interesting tangents)[/spoiler]

Seraph

Well, any way that people group themselves up could be called an "alignment" if you are loose enough with your terms.  I'd also like to mention that the humors system that Avayevnon uses is pretty much an alignment system.  It just separates people into personality types rather than moral codes.
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Steerpike

#2
Good stuff Seraphine - I've added it to the list of links.

That's true about groupings - affiliations and faction allegiances are certainly one way to handle "Alignment," in a broad sense, especially if such allegiances carry mechanical, in-game benefits.

When you think about it, D&D Alignments are a strange combination of personality types and moral codes, at least in the way they're often implemented - an alignment like "Chaotic" often refers as much to temperament (implying things like passion or free-spiritedness) as they do to a moral stance (anti-authoritarianism, individualism).  That might account for some of their clunkiness.

Ghostman

I'm opposed to alignment systems in RPGs because I don't think there's nearly enough benefit to be gained from their inclusion to justify the awkwardness caused by their flaws.

The sort of mechanics that an alignment system might bring to the table could be achieved by less clunky means, such as modeling characters' allegiances to factions, ideologies, religions or codes of conduct.
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LordVreeg

Quote from: Ghostman
I'm opposed to alignment systems in RPGs because I don't think there's nearly enough benefit to be gained from their inclusion to justify the awkwardness caused by their flaws.

The sort of mechanics that an alignment system might bring to the table could be achieved by less clunky means, such as modeling characters' allegiances to factions, ideologies, religions or codes of conduct.
I agree for most games, though for some games, if it better models the religion or cosmology of the setting, it can be fun...

My issue was always with racial alignment, even the idea that when you meet an orc in the wild, he's chaotic evil....the organization and affilation model brings culture to the fore.
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sparkletwist

Asura uses "Elemental Alignment," in which each person is aligned with one of the five elements: fire, air, earth, water, or void. However, I think this is different than traditional "alignment" because it describes certain possible personality traits but does not say anything about morality or the like-- then again, maybe this makes the system actually workable.

Each element has an association with one of the five traits in the Asura system: fire with power, air with grace, earth with vitality, water with senses, and void with mind. Characters get an automatic +1 in their aligned element, meaning they tend to have greater competence in a certain area, giving some mechanical backing to things-- fire-aligned characters are "fiery" and a certain aggressive temperament, which is reflected in getting a bonus to Power, usable in skills like Brawling and Intimidation. Air-aligned characters have the grace of air, so their Grace bonus shows up in skills like Acrobatics and Performance. And so on...

That said, I experimented with a higher bonus, but settled on the rather modest current +1 so the alignment/element system doesn't actually shackle character personalities or capabilities any.

Raelifin

Quote from: sparkletwist
Asura uses "Elemental Alignment," in which each person is aligned with one of the five elements: fire, air, earth, water, or void. However, I think this is different than traditional "alignment" because it describes certain possible personality traits but does not say anything about morality or the like-- then again, maybe this makes the system actually workable.

That's the way City of the Chosen works. Characters associated with Iron and Frost are more likely to be "lawful" under the d20 alignments, and Blood and Smoke are likely to be "chaotic", but I think the distancing from morality and the emphasis on personality is what's key. And even then I think it's important to have a nuanced view, rather than "your character has alignment X so they clearly would do Y in situation Z."

Steerpike

QuoteI'm opposed to alignment systems in RPGs because I don't think there's nearly enough benefit to be gained from their inclusion to justify the awkwardness caused by their flaws.
Generally I'm in agreement.  I'm just curious about offbeat/unusual possibilities for "fixing" or adapting something generally rather useless into something more interesting.  Maybe I can't be done.

I do like Asura's elemental system - it's very similar to City of the Chosen.  What I particularly like about City is that everyone has all of the elements, just in different amounts, so to speak.

Cheomesh

#8
Quote from: Ghostman
The sort of mechanics that an alignment system might bring to the table could be achieved by less clunky means, such as modeling characters' allegiances to factions, ideologies, religions or codes of conduct.

If they have to be included at all (say, the system doesn't provide some other means), this method is best.

If a little more depth is required, combine allegiance with a scale of Strict vs Loose - Strongly Dwarfish, Moderately Elfen, Loosely Bushido.  Something like that.

M.

EDIT:  Another way to do it would be Codes of Honor.  While many people sort of align themselves to some pre-defined standard, others are more eclectic.  I think Conan d20 did this, but it has been a while since I have looked.
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sparkletwist

The problem there is then you have to define what "Dwarfish" means, and everyone in the game might have different ideas. It could lead to the same kind of confusion as trying to define "Chaotic," only there are now more words being thrown around.

I feel like, ultimately, if you really want to try to create a mechanical framework for describing characters' behavior and views, the best approach is to use "narrativist" mechanics like FATE aspects rather than to try to fit them into some strict hierarchy of predefined standards.

Cheomesh

Quote from: sparkletwist
The problem there is then you have to define what "Dwarfish" means, and everyone in the game might have different ideas. It could lead to the same kind of confusion as trying to define "Chaotic," only there are now more words being thrown around.

Well, yeah, but I'd have assumed it was part of the world building.  Ok, probably a bad choice of words, but better than the original political party example I had in mind.  Everything needs to be defined, after all.

M.
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Seraph

Yeah, I think alignments that are more attached to groups or to certain set of specific ideals would work better than what we are used to, and even that has to be used carefully.  Perhaps it is a setting where everyone is divided into groups, and you have to choose a group whose ideals you believe in just to survive.  Otherwise, maybe have it be entirely voluntary, and only have characters "aligned" to things if they choose to be.

Though for my "4 humors" based system, which is a personality alignment, rather than a moral alignment, the thread you linked to is missing 2 of them.  The full version must be in one of the Avayevnon threads.
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