Forbidden Arts Discussion And Interest

Raelifin · June 07, 2013, 10:11:32 AM

Now I have to figure out if I guessed that correctly or if Xathan made it canon to support my guess... ;)

Xathan · June 07, 2013, 12:04:07 PM

Bwahahaha! I'll never tell!

Humabout · June 07, 2013, 05:29:50 PM

Quote from: Xathan
That's exactly right. Climate is fairly evenly temperate across the board, slightly warmer in the south than the north, but weather will happen naturally over the course of the game, not be static. The area for the entire map is small enough where there isn't a huge difference depending on where you are. If the game expands to the points where new maps across the sea emerge, then new climates will arise.

Also, is this map final? I don't want to pick a start location without knowing what i'm getting into.

[EDIT]
What kind of terrain is N7WI? What kind of terrain is N6WI? Why are these striped like that?

The key would be very nice if it included sample pictures and the associated movement penalties (or just put the sample picture in the section that describes how that terrain works.

[Second EDIT]
What can we expect in terms of unit Speed? "Whatever you research" is so vague as to make any sense of scale on that map meaningless. What is the Speed of a typical foot soldier? What is the Speed of light cavalry? Heavy cavalry? Personally, I'd like to be around a week from the nearest town, maybe two weeks, but I can't pick a spot when I don't know what to expect. :/

[Third EDIT]
Character fluff updated.

Xathan · June 08, 2013, 05:22:55 PM

Hey, I'm going to take this opportunity to actually address some general map concerns, including ones raised in your post and ones others have raised in PM. Humabout, some of your specific questions I'll answer in a PM, which will make sense once you get that PM. :P

Anyway, here's a general map concern and address. (C&A)

I can't tell deep rivers from shallow ones
It actually is kind of tricky, I admit, especially on the smaller map, but any change I've looked at would easily make the problem "I can't tell rivers from roads". When I have a bit of free time, I'm going to try to go through every hex a river crosses and label it deep or shallow, but there is a trick that should help: on the large version of the map, the deep rivers have a more visible #0467BC; border, while the shallow rivers do not.

The Terrain is hard to Read
Once I get to my home PC tonight I'll try to make a map key that uses the actual icons, but for now I'll provide a hex that has a terrain feature so it's easy to reference:

N5WE: Grassland (Movement 3)
N5WI: Hills (Movement 4)
N15WC: Light Forest (Movement 4)
L17WE: Dense Forest (Movement 5)
N13WG: Mountain (Movement 5)
M17CP: Swamp (Movement 5)

I hope that helps clear that up. Also, please remember that movement speed represents the speed you need to enter a region (assuming I understood that correctly; Raelfin, have I been doing that wrong?); a mountain adjacent to grassland would require 3 movement to exit onto the grassland, but 5 movement to enter.

As for Rivers and Roads, if the colors are hard to tell apart which I can understand, just check to see if it connects directly to a city or town or not - if it does, it's a road, if not, a river. Also, if you're wondering about flow, if you zoom in rivers do have arrows that show which direction the river is flowing - however, as a good rule of thumb which I believe is always accurate, rivers start in high elevation and flow down to a nearby body of water, because I had Raelfin draw rivers after explaining I don't know how they flow realistically, and I have to appreciate him not going "Ah duuuurrrr" when I realized what was going on. ;)

How do I know how defensible my location is?
This one, by design, you can only do so much about. A location with your back to water prevents non-naval attacks from that direction, but also locks in your forces from flight. A location in the mountains slows down attacking troops considerably, but also slows your ability to leave to respond or retreat into your lair. A location deep in the woods has the same downside. A location near a town makes wealth easier to obtain, but discovery more likely. A location in the grasslands is going to allow for equal movement speed out and in, leaving you somewhat vulnerable to cavalry.

That being said, I am not going to set out to screw anyone over. So long as you're not directly in the Empire's main sphere of influence (the Southwest corner, southern half of middlewest, and western half of central south) any defense against you is going to be slow to mount, and the Empire is bound by the same movement speed you are, so even if they depart the week you attack and are able to take roads the entire way, most towns and cities outside the empire's main sphere of influence is a least a month from the full force of defense. In addition, the outlying towns often called "Dark Artist!" any time they wanted imperial support, so they often won't leave immediately in any great force, instead a sending small force to investigate to make sure it's not another cry of wolf.

Finally, the way attacking Lairs will work (which is being developed) will deliberately make it unappealing to attack another Dark Artist's rival early in the game - not just because of difficulty, but because the primary reward for raiding another person's lair will be their research, and attacking early in the game really just nets you another area you have to worry about defending when your resources are limited.

Could you explain scale and movement speed?
For good examples of basic movement speed or basic, I'd look at the mercenary units that are located in the post above the map. Dark Artists will be able to research units with higher speeds, of course (one of your advantages over the Empire), but starting units for the most part will be about the same speed or slightly faster. A couple exceptions exist - the Mindbreaker, for example, starts with ectoplasmic storms which are flying units so treat everything but mountains as movement 2 - but they are going to be fairly fragile and need the considerably slower ectoplasmic walls to screen for them to do more than harass/hit and run.

A hex corresponds, roughly, to 5 square miles, which if you think about it in real-world terms is a hell of a long distance for a pre-combustion-engine society. That also gives you an idea of the scale of the map, which is roughly the size of some Midwestern US states or some western European countries.

The map is kind of bland/square, why?

This is a function of a couple things. For one, I am not a cartographer, never have been. You should have seen some of the early drafts of the map I made, they were hideously awkward. The "blandness" is to keep thing easier to read - given how many questions I'm already getting about what tiles are what, imagine if I had thrown in scrublands, deserts, badlands, and other strange terrain!

As for the squarness, I did some to minimize that, but it's again a bit of a meta decision: I wanted to give the maximum amount of landscape for players to wander and explore and expand, which meant making the map a bit awkward geographically for clarity's sake. I have insane ambitions of adding whole new maps that are reachable by sea-travel at some point, and those will be a bit less clunky looking as I practice my cartography. :)

What's the deal with those roads that go to nowhere?

Those are roads that are either under construction or have been abandoned and left to ruin. If you're not sure which it is - any time one of those roads branches off a city that has no other roads connecting it, it's an abandoned road (which is often a good indication of the direction of ruins), if the city has other roads connecting it, it's a road under construction. Keep in mind new construction can begin: if, for sample, the city at S1EH connects eventually to S7EI, then the road at S7EI will begin extending outwards again (unless someone has already claimed a lair blocking that road.)

So Cities will always be tougher than towns, right?

Not always. A town with a road connecting it directly the capitol city will be a tough nut to crack, while an isolated city like N3E1 may be ready to burst like a ripe tomato. Scouting will reveal more and spare you some difficulties in accidentally attacking a very well defended city, though bad luck does happen. That being said, it bears repeating I am not out to screw anyone, and rather promote more fun.

If you have any further questions, please don't hesitate to ask! I'll be back on IRC tonight from 12:30am CST - ~2 or 3 CST, around some tomorrow morning and late evening, and then it gets harder to predict because I am a slave to my schedule - if you'd like to PM me, please do so as well!

Humabout · June 08, 2013, 06:02:29 PM

This helps a lot. Thank you, Xathan!

Another question: If it takes 5 speed to enter a hex, and your unit only has 4 speed, what happens? Can it enter the hex in two turns or is it unable to enter the hex at all?

Xathan · June 08, 2013, 06:11:56 PM

Quote from: Humabout
This helps a lot. Thank you, Xathan!

Another question: If it takes 5 speed to enter a hex, and your unit only has 4 speed, what happens? Can it enter the hex in two turns or is it unable to enter the hex at all?

I'll have to double check with Rael, but as I understand it it takes them 2 weeks: they make 4 progress the week they start moving, and enter at the beginning of the next week with 3 move remaining.

Humabout · June 08, 2013, 06:49:08 PM

That makes sense. Do cavalry incur any penalties for rough terrain or is it easy for them to cruise through mountains/swamps/etc?

Xathan · June 08, 2013, 06:52:58 PM

When it comes to speed, no additional penalties, but terrain will likely provide penalties and bonuses within rounds to particular unit types.

Nomadic · June 08, 2013, 06:58:51 PM

Hey xathan, when do you want to get together to discuss my monster?

Xathan · June 08, 2013, 07:00:42 PM

Quote from: Nomadic
Hey xathan, when do you want to get together to discuss my monster?

Would you be around in about 6.5 hours? :P

Nomadic · June 08, 2013, 10:04:03 PM

Quote from: Xathan
Quote from: Nomadic
Hey xathan, when do you want to get together to discuss my monster?

Would you be around in about 6.5 hours? :P

Yes I will. If you want to get on IRC then I'll stick around.

Xathan · June 08, 2013, 10:32:45 PM

Quote from: Nomadic
Quote from: Xathan
Quote from: Nomadic
Hey xathan, when do you want to get together to discuss my monster?

Would you be around in about 6.5 hours? :P

Yes I will. If you want to get on IRC then I'll stick around.

Cool, I'll hop on as soon as I get home from work - I'll try and pm you if I'm running late.

Raelifin · June 09, 2013, 12:16:11 AM

Quote from: XathanI can't tell deep rivers from shallow ones

Another trick, though I of course recommend looking at the big map, is that rivers almost never cross through the middle of a hex while roads almost always do. To say another way, rivers are near hex borders, roads are in the center of hexes.

Also keep in mind that when a road crosses a river it is irrelevant whether it's deep or not. Bridges make the cost a flat 2.

Quote from: XathanAlso, please remember that movement speed represents the speed you need to enter a region (assuming I understood that correctly; Raelfin, have I been doing that wrong?); a mountain adjacent to grassland would require 3 movement to exit onto the grassland, but 5 movement to enter.

Exactly right.

Quote from: Xathana good rule of thumb which I believe is always accurate, rivers start in high elevation and flow down to a nearby body of water

This is universal. Yes.

Quote from: XathanFinally, the way attacking Lairs will work (which is being developed) will deliberately make it unappealing to attack another Dark Artist's rival early in the game - not just because of difficulty, but because the primary reward for raiding another person's lair will be their research, and attacking early in the game really just nets you another area you have to worry about defending when your resources are limited.

It's also much easier to defend a lair than, say, a town. All the classes have defenses that are really strong (still mechanically under development) and a decently developed lair will be able to repel a sizable force with ease.

Quote from: XathanA hex corresponds, roughly, to 5 square miles, which if you think about it in real-world terms is a hell of a long distance for a pre-combustion-engine society. That also gives you an idea of the scale of the map, which is roughly the size of some Midwestern US states or some western European countries.

Nooooooo. You mean 5 miles in (side->side) diameter!! 5 square miles means a little under 2 miles in diameter (because they're hexes). Maths!

Quote from: Xathan
Quote from: Humabout
Another question: If it takes 5 speed to enter a hex, and your unit only has 4 speed, what happens? Can it enter the hex in two turns or is it unable to enter the hex at all?

I'll have to double check with Rael, but as I understand it it takes them 2 weeks: they make 4 progress the week they start moving, and enter at the beginning of the next week with 3 move remaining.

Each turn has 3 movement phases! The speed of a unit is how many movement points it gets *per phase*! Thus a unit with 4 speed can move through 3 forest hexes per turn!

That said, Xathan is mostly right. It can take multiple phases or even multiple turns to move between hexes. When units move they store up "progress" towards entering a new hex. When they reach their goal they move. Progress is saved across phases and turns. See the movement rules in the gameplay thread for details.

Xathan · June 09, 2013, 12:25:40 AM

QuoteNooooooo. You mean 5 miles in (side->side) diameter!! 5 square miles means a little under 2 miles in diameter (because they're hexes). Maths!

This is why I have you to do maths: see what happens when I try?! I make an unholy mess of things.

Humabout · June 09, 2013, 08:40:37 AM

Okay, I think I'm getting a handle on how this will work. I suppose one last movement-related question: Will it be possible to research an ability to traverse a particular terrain type at a faster speed than normal (e.g., mountainwalk lets me treat mountains as roads, but other terrain takes the normal amount of speed to cross)? I'm not 100% certain this would be worth while, but if it's cheaper than an overall Speed boost, I could see the utility early on when it comes to getting around the local area until you can research outright fast units.

[EDIT]
I have tentatively chosen a start location that, if I did it right, is smack in the middle of the marsh. From what you've said, I think I understand that this is pretty remote and away from the empire's sphere of influence?

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