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Started by Lmns Crn, June 08, 2013, 11:06:59 PM

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Lmns Crn

June 08, 2013, 11:06:59 PM
So we've been having a bit of fun in the Tavern, picking apart the post of some poor blogger on the subject of races. I have my own issues with the particulars of that post, but I think the general idea-- that race stats as done in D&D are pretty unsatisfying for a variety of reasons.

If you use a world/system with different playable races or race-analogues (species, cultures, whatever you want to call them-- I think the word "race" is problematic as well and would like to get away from it, which is tough considering how entrenched it is in the gaming lexicon), do you differentiate them mechanically, and if so, how?

I've tried a couple of different strategies based on the system I'm working with. For the Jade Stage, I've dabbled with FATE and with Apocalypse World. In FATE, I wanted to stick with the idea of giving bonuses based on race, not penalties, with the idea of avoiding disadvantaging characters (in the way that an elven fighter in D&D 3.X [the system I was coming from] is disadvantaged due to a Con penalty, and so forth). So the crafty and detail-oriented dwarves get a bonus stunt associated with either Investigation or Engineering, and the treacherous seafaring goblins choose their bonus stunt from either Deceit or Sailing. Which works reasonably well, I think, but it doesn't really address my stated goal (if you want to get fussy, lack of a relevant bonus can be considered a penalty-- if you want to really make a hugely effective dwarven con-artist, it can be argued that you'll never be quite as good as a goblin version of the same concept, if you're measuring by the total amount of Deceit stunts you can have at once.)

In the nascent AW hack (gosh, will I ever finish a project before moving on to the next?), race effects the "mark experience when you _____" portion of the game mechanic. So a dwarven character's dwarvenness manifests as "mark experience when you overcome a challenge with ingenuity and planning," while a goblin character's goblinity is expressed as "mark experience when you overcome a challenge by manipulating someone else." I like the concept of it, and I like that it's the only effect that race has on the mechanics directly (otherwise, a dwarven Commander and a goblin Commander function identically), but it's a devil to balance these. Damn, AW, why you so hard to write mechanics for?

Of course, none of these solutions really begin to address the issue of monoculture, which blah bluh blah oh my god.
I move quick: I'm gonna try my trick one last time--
you know it's possible to vaguely define my outline
when dust move in the sunshine

LoA

#1
June 09, 2013, 12:22:42 AM Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 12:42:08 AM by Newb Auld Lang Syne
I feel guilty about posting that link... I don't know why though.... But yeah, I actually really like that idea of yours about making races with nothing but bonuses as apposed to a balance of pros and cons. If you really wanted to give your characters flaws, you could probably just have them take on flaw feats from Unearthed Arcana. Sorry coming from 3.5/Pathfinder.

Steerpike

#2
June 09, 2013, 12:35:08 AM Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 12:42:28 AM by Steerpike
Don't feel guilty Newb Auld Lang Syne - it's provoked discussion at the very least!

I tend to differentiate mechanically, although you're right to point out the potential drawbacks, Luminous.  I think, in general, it's better to give individual species/races unique special abilities and very specific, contextual bonuses rather than general stat-boosts or penalties.  Things like Gnomes being able to Speak with Burrowing Animals, Dwarven Stonecutting, Elven paralysis-immunity, Halfling bonuses against larger opponents, etc.  In my old Cadaverous Earth game this resulted in things like swim speeds, multiple arms, strange natural attacks (leechkin palm-mouths...), unusual immunities, a shade's ability to puppeteer dead bodies, etc.  I generally pursued the same approach with drawbacks - hagmen have to reach water on a daily basis, shades can't go out in sunlight, leechkin suffer from blood-thirst, and the like.

I think a selection of extremely unique and/or context specific abilities is better than a selection of generic bonuses/penalties, both because it helps to mitigate the "munchkin factor" of a race while simultaneously making the race feel different or alien.  Removing bonuses and abilities altogether just tends to homogenize everything.

Raelifin

#3
June 09, 2013, 12:53:13 AM
In my old setting all the people were one species that manifest various bestial features that were roughly tied to culture and geography, making them "races" in the sense that they weren't really that different, but did have characteristic traits. For instance, the Totwimi, a culture of sailors were characteristically small, usually had webbed hands and feet, and usually had claws. These characteristics were mechanically meaningful, but always optional ("mutations" were very common). So you could be a Totwimi giant that didn't have the stereotypically "Totwimi" features. This let players pick whatever culture they wanted and whatever physical traits they wanted and simultaneously gave an interesting interplay between the two.

Other settings that I've done are almost always human only except for specific requests. If someone wants to play a warforged-ish golem, I'd work up some stats for them and see if they liked it. But I agree with the author of the blog that racial straitjacketing is awful. I like being able to play charismatic dwarves if me and the GM are both okay with it.

Xathan

#4
June 09, 2013, 12:57:34 AM
 
Part of the problem with how most systems handle race is "role forcing." In DnD 3.5, for example, if you were playing a barbarian you were going to be penalized for also being an elf, if you were playing a cleric, you were going to be penalized for also being a half-orc, if you were a monk, you were going to be penalized for also being a halfling. (Actually, if you were any non-magic or sneak-attack based class, you were going to be penalized for playing a small race, but that's another issue entirely)

I like the idea of assigning bonuses only, no penalties, in theory, but in practice it still removes choice if not done very carefully. A race that has a bonus to health will always make a better front line meatshield than another option; a race with a bonus to accuracy will always make a better archer than another option, etc. What would have to be done with a bonus system is to make sure the bonuses are useful enough regardless of role where there isn't a "best option."

For example, lets say one race has a bonus to defense against ranged attacks, and another race has spell resistance, and yet another is resistant to damage from elemental sources. (We're not going to ask how biology granted those things). All three races are good choices if you want to be a front line meatshield, but which is better? Ranged attacks come up more often, but are less lethal than spells, which aren't as common as things being on fire or cold (even in the most magic-heavy setting), but those are typically more generally damaging than the focused damage of ranged attacks...and suddenly you have interesting choices which that blog self righteously banged on about for awhile without ever addressing how to make the choices interesting.

Also, as a personal rule when I design races, I only ever give bonuses to races that could be justified as an innate quality, because, as LC said:

QuoteMonoculture, which blah bluh blah oh my god

Which may be one of the most hilariously accurate things I have heard said about "Race" in fantasy in awhile. So looking at, for example, Pathfinder Gnomes:

Ability Modifiers: So gnomes are healthier but not as strong as most. I can buy that. They are also, genetically, more likable? Affable? Uh...okay, stupid, but not too bad.
Gnome Magic: Okay, gnomes are naturally magical, I can dig it.
Low Light Vision - Alright, works for cats in the real world, so that's totally inborn, go with it.
Defensive Training: So...every gnome ever born ever is trained to fight giants? Even ones born in areas hundreds of miles from the nearest giant, whose great great grandfather wouldn't know a giant from an oak? Is an innate trait of gnomes? Yeah, I don't buy it.
Hatred: OH MY GOD every single gnome ever hates reptiles and goblins no matter what. So a gnome that grew up in an arctic environment has a hatred of reptiles because he despises the way they freeze to death?

I could go on, but I think my point is made. Racial ability scores should not cover cultural things - in fact, it'd be kind of cool if "culture" was a separate template that provides separate bonuses.

That's my 2cp when I'm at work and haven't had a chance to do more than skim anyone else's posts yet. :P
AnIndex of My Work

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[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
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[/spoiler]

Steerpike

#5
June 09, 2013, 01:19:50 AM Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 01:22:58 AM by Steerpike
Quote from: XathanWhich may be one of the most hilariously accurate things I have heard said about "Race" in fantasy in awhile. So looking at, for example, Pathfinder Gnomes:

Ability Modifiers: So gnomes are healthier but not as strong as most. I can buy that. They are also, genetically, more likable? Affable? Uh...okay, stupid, but not too bad.
Gnome Magic: Okay, gnomes are naturally magical, I can dig it.
Low Light Vision - Alright, works for cats in the real world, so that's totally inborn, go with it.
Defensive Training: So...every gnome ever born ever is trained to fight giants? Even ones born in areas hundreds of miles from the nearest giant, whose great great grandfather wouldn't know a giant from an oak? Is an innate trait of gnomes? Yeah, I don't buy it.
Hatred: OH MY GOD every single gnome ever hates reptiles and goblins no matter what. So a gnome that grew up in an arctic environment has a hatred of reptiles because he despises the way they freeze to death?

This would be valid, except that Pathfinder Gnomes (like all Pathfinder races) are built to be specifically customizable.   Here's the page for Gnomes.  The traits you described are just the "Standard" or default Racial Traits.  There's an entire list of Alternate Racial Traits below that which can be substituted out for things like Hatred, Defensive Training, etc.  Don't like Hatred?  Sub it out for Warden of Nature or Master Tinker.  No need for Weapon Familiarity with your Gnome Wizard?  Take Academician, Fell Magic, or Magical Linguist instead.  There's also 4 subraces listed for even greater variety, plus a slew of racial feats and class archetypes.  These abilities and options are there specifically to fight against the idea of racial monoculture and role-forcing.

Xathan

#6
June 09, 2013, 01:31:02 AM
Quote from: Steerpike
Quote from: XathanWhich may be one of the most hilariously accurate things I have heard said about "Race" in fantasy in awhile. So looking at, for example, Pathfinder Gnomes:

Ability Modifiers: So gnomes are healthier but not as strong as most. I can buy that. They are also, genetically, more likable? Affable? Uh...okay, stupid, but not too bad.
Gnome Magic: Okay, gnomes are naturally magical, I can dig it.
Low Light Vision - Alright, works for cats in the real world, so that's totally inborn, go with it.
Defensive Training: So...every gnome ever born ever is trained to fight giants? Even ones born in areas hundreds of miles from the nearest giant, whose great great grandfather wouldn't know a giant from an oak? Is an innate trait of gnomes? Yeah, I don't buy it.
Hatred: OH MY GOD every single gnome ever hates reptiles and goblins no matter what. So a gnome that grew up in an arctic environment has a hatred of reptiles because he despises the way they freeze to death?

This would be valid, except that Pathfinder Gnomes (like all Pathfinder races) are built to be specifically customizable.  Here's the page for Gnomes.  The traits you described are just the "Standard" or default Racial Traits.  There's an entire list of Alternate Racial Traits below that which can be substituted out for things like Hatred, Defensive Training, etc.  Don't like Hatred?  Sub it out for Warden of Nature or Master Tinker.  No need for Weapon Familiarity with your Gnome Wizard?  Take Academician, Fell Magic, or Magical Linguist instead.  There's also 4 subraces listed for even greater variety, plus a slew of racial feats and class archetypes.  These abilities and options are there specifically to fight against the idea of racial monoculture and role-forcing.

And that is why Pathfinder > DnD 3.5. I probably should have referenced the latter Gnomes instead, but I had my Pathfinder core book on me at work, so it was easiest. However, things like what you mentioned is exactly what I think a good system needs to counteract the problems I mentioned.
AnIndex of My Work

Quote from: Sparkletwist
It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
Appendix I: Open Game License Version 1.0a
The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.
1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.
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Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Fudge 10th Anniversary Edition Copyright 2005, Grey Ghost Press, Inc.; Authors Steffan O'Sullivan and Ann Dupuis, with additional material by Jonathan Benn, Peter Bonney, Deird'Re Brooks, Reimer Behrends, Don Bisdorf, Carl Cravens, Shawn Garbett, Steven Hammond, Ed Heil, Bernard Hsiung, J.M. "Thijs" Krijger, Sedge Lewis, Shawn Lockard, Gordon McCormick, Kent Matthewson, Peter Mikelsons, Robb Neumann, Anthony Roberson, Andy Skinner, William Stoddard, Stephan Szabo, John Ughrin, Alex Weldon, Duke York, Dmitri Zagidulin
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
Spirit of the Century Copyright 2006 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue, Fred Hicks, and Leonard Balsera
Xathan's forum posts at http://www.thecbg.org Copyright 2006-2011, J.A. Raizman.
[/spoiler]

LoA

#7
June 09, 2013, 01:56:02 AM Last Edit: June 09, 2013, 01:59:26 AM by Newb Auld Lang Syne
Quote from: Xathan
Quote from: Steerpike
Quote from: XathanWhich may be one of the most hilariously accurate things I have heard said about "Race" in fantasy in awhile. So looking at, for example, Pathfinder Gnomes:

Ability Modifiers: So gnomes are healthier but not as strong as most. I can buy that. They are also, genetically, more likable? Affable? Uh...okay, stupid, but not too bad.
Gnome Magic: Okay, gnomes are naturally magical, I can dig it.
Low Light Vision - Alright, works for cats in the real world, so that's totally inborn, go with it.
Defensive Training: So...every gnome ever born ever is trained to fight giants? Even ones born in areas hundreds of miles from the nearest giant, whose great great grandfather wouldn't know a giant from an oak? Is an innate trait of gnomes? Yeah, I don't buy it.
Hatred: OH MY GOD every single gnome ever hates reptiles and goblins no matter what. So a gnome that grew up in an arctic environment has a hatred of reptiles because he despises the way they freeze to death?

This would be valid, except that Pathfinder Gnomes (like all Pathfinder races) are built to be specifically customizable.  Here's the page for Gnomes.  The traits you described are just the "Standard" or default Racial Traits.  There's an entire list of Alternate Racial Traits below that which can be substituted out for things like Hatred, Defensive Training, etc.  Don't like Hatred?  Sub it out for Warden of Nature or Master Tinker.  No need for Weapon Familiarity with your Gnome Wizard?  Take Academician, Fell Magic, or Magical Linguist instead.  There's also 4 subraces listed for even greater variety, plus a slew of racial feats and class archetypes.  These abilities and options are there specifically to fight against the idea of racial monoculture and role-forcing.

And that is why Pathfinder > DnD 3.5. I probably should have referenced the latter Gnomes instead, but I had my Pathfinder core book on me at work, so it was easiest. However, things like what you mentioned is exactly what I think a good system needs to counteract the problems I mentioned.

And really, what Xathan and Steerpike we're talking about is exactly what I've been trying to fix with my own games. Breaking down races into physical aspects and keeping cultural stuff out of the mix. Heck maybe "culture" is to restrictive of a term. Why shouldn't it be based on personality too? Personal quirks, interests, experiences. and so on too influence what types of bonuses you get, and what extra skills you get.

Ghostman

#8
June 09, 2013, 05:09:05 AM
Quote from: Luminous Crayon
In FATE, I wanted to stick with the idea of giving bonuses based on race, not penalties, with the idea of avoiding disadvantaging characters (in the way that an elven fighter in D&D 3.X [the system I was coming from] is disadvantaged due to a Con penalty, and so forth). So the crafty and detail-oriented dwarves get a bonus stunt associated with either Investigation or Engineering, and the treacherous seafaring goblins choose their bonus stunt from either Deceit or Sailing.
A problem with modeling bonuses only is that then you cannot represent stuff like dwarves being slow runners due to their short feet. Penalties like that can matter in dramatic ways (eg. a scenario where a group of characters must make a run to escape from danger - do they leave the dwarf behind and bear the guilt if he doesn't make it, or will they put themselves in greater risk to help him out?) and it might feel wrong to just ignore them.

Quote from: Steerpike
I think a selection of extremely unique and/or context specific abilities is better than a selection of generic bonuses/penalties, both because it helps to mitigate the "munchkin factor" of a race while simultaneously making the race feel different or alien.  Removing bonuses and abilities altogether just tends to homogenize everything.
I generally agree with this. But I think in cases such as comparing half-orcs to halflings for example, mechanically representing a significant difference in a stat (in this case strength) would be justified, even somewhat necessary; otherwise you might end up with a bothersome disconnect between crunch and fluff. That said, D20-style bonuses/penalties is a pretty bad way to implement it.
¡ɟlǝs ǝnɹʇ ǝɥʇ ´ʍopɐɥS ɯɐ I

Paragon * (Paragon Rules) * Savage Age (Wiki) * Argyrian Empire [spoiler=Mother 2]

* You meet the New Age Retro Hippie
* The New Age Retro Hippie lost his temper!
* The New Age Retro Hippie's offense went up by 1!
* Ness attacks!
SMAAAASH!!
* 87 HP of damage to the New Age Retro Hippie!
* The New Age Retro Hippie turned back to normal!
YOU WON!
* Ness gained 160 xp.
[/spoiler]

LordVreeg

#9
June 09, 2013, 10:41:02 AM
Quote from: Newb Auld Lang Syne
Quote from: Xathan
Quote from: Steerpike
Quote from: XathanWhich may be one of the most hilariously accurate things I have heard said about "Race" in fantasy in awhile. So looking at, for example, Pathfinder Gnomes:

Ability Modifiers: So gnomes are healthier but not as strong as most. I can buy that. They are also, genetically, more likable? Affable? Uh...okay, stupid, but not too bad.
Gnome Magic: Okay, gnomes are naturally magical, I can dig it.
Low Light Vision - Alright, works for cats in the real world, so that's totally inborn, go with it.
Defensive Training: So...every gnome ever born ever is trained to fight giants? Even ones born in areas hundreds of miles from the nearest giant, whose great great grandfather wouldn't know a giant from an oak? Is an innate trait of gnomes? Yeah, I don't buy it.
Hatred: OH MY GOD every single gnome ever hates reptiles and goblins no matter what. So a gnome that grew up in an arctic environment has a hatred of reptiles because he despises the way they freeze to death?

This would be valid, except that Pathfinder Gnomes (like all Pathfinder races) are built to be specifically customizable.  Here's the page for Gnomes.  The traits you described are just the "Standard" or default Racial Traits.  There's an entire list of Alternate Racial Traits below that which can be substituted out for things like Hatred, Defensive Training, etc.  Don't like Hatred?  Sub it out for Warden of Nature or Master Tinker.  No need for Weapon Familiarity with your Gnome Wizard?  Take Academician, Fell Magic, or Magical Linguist instead.  There's also 4 subraces listed for even greater variety, plus a slew of racial feats and class archetypes.  These abilities and options are there specifically to fight against the idea of racial monoculture and role-forcing.

And that is why Pathfinder > DnD 3.5. I probably should have referenced the latter Gnomes instead, but I had my Pathfinder core book on me at work, so it was easiest. However, things like what you mentioned is exactly what I think a good system needs to counteract the problems I mentioned.

And really, what Xathan and Steerpike we're talking about is exactly what I've been trying to fix with my own games. Breaking down races into physical aspects and keeping cultural stuff out of the mix. Heck maybe "culture" is to restrictive of a term. Why shouldn't it be based on personality too? Personal quirks, interests, experiences. and so on too influence what types of bonuses you get, and what extra skills you get.

Or else you add the two together and either have different cultures or race/culture mixes as possible.   And also, while designing a wide-open game does not allow for this, I always base my racial/cultural mix (we roll for race, so I actually adjust the race chart based on the area) on the play area. 
I have also started to create adjusted social Acquisition charts per game, which is a chart we use to give skill, experience, and item bonuses based on the area and social level of the character in question, which helps build a race/culture back story.

Just my take, but I totally find myself in the camp of adjusting that which should be cultural to fit the area and backstory. 
VerkonenVreeg, The Nice.Celtricia, World of Factions

Steel Island Online gaming thread
The Collegium Arcana Online Game
Old, evil, twisted, damaged, and afflicted.  Orbis non sufficit.Thread Murderer Extraordinaire, and supposedly pragmatic...\"That is my interpretation. That the same rules designed to reduce the role of the GM and to empower the player also destroyed the autonomy to create a consistent setting. And more importantly, these rules reduce the Roleplaying component of what is supposed to be a \'Fantasy Roleplaying game\' to something else\"-Vreeg

Xathan

#10
June 09, 2013, 12:50:13 PM
Quote from: Ghostman
Quote from: Luminous Crayon
In FATE, I wanted to stick with the idea of giving bonuses based on race, not penalties, with the idea of avoiding disadvantaging characters (in the way that an elven fighter in D&D 3.X [the system I was coming from] is disadvantaged due to a Con penalty, and so forth). So the crafty and detail-oriented dwarves get a bonus stunt associated with either Investigation or Engineering, and the treacherous seafaring goblins choose their bonus stunt from either Deceit or Sailing.
A problem with modeling bonuses only is that then you cannot represent stuff like dwarves being slow runners due to their short feet. Penalties like that can matter in dramatic ways (eg. a scenario where a group of characters must make a run to escape from danger - do they leave the dwarf behind and bear the guilt if he doesn't make it, or will they put themselves in greater risk to help him out?) and it might feel wrong to just ignore them.

That's actually a good argument in favor of penalties. I guess it's about interesting - dwarves being slower by nature is interesting, dwarves being worse sorcerers by nature is not interesting?

Then again, the dwarven speed penalty would probably be more interesting if it was, instead of "20 feet instead of 30, you're slower" was "Cannot run, only double move" or "Can only move 20 feet on their second move action." It means the dwarf is still slower, so won't be able to run away as well, but it hampers less in individual rounds, so a dwarf isn't going to be hampered in every single fight where archers are present (which is not as interesting as the moral choice a lower speed could create you described earlier).
AnIndex of My Work

Quote from: Sparkletwist
It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
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System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
Spirit of the Century Copyright 2006 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue, Fred Hicks, and Leonard Balsera
Xathan's forum posts at http://www.thecbg.org Copyright 2006-2011, J.A. Raizman.
[/spoiler]

Steerpike

#11
June 09, 2013, 01:36:16 PM
QuoteBreaking down races into physical aspects and keeping cultural stuff out of the mix. Heck maybe "culture" is to restrictive of a term. Why shouldn't it be based on personality too? Personal quirks, interests, experiences. and so on too influence what types of bonuses you get, and what extra skills you get.
I have no problem with cultural bonuses and abilities, so long as there's a variable selection of them.  Lots of systems have the kind of personal traits you describe, though (including Pathfinder).  Iron Heroes, for example, has traits like that as well.  Sometimes there's an overlap in d20 here with feats, of course.  It's quite possible to have all three: your physical species, your culture, and your personality.

Basically I'm not usually in favour of a less-is-more attitude.

Xathan

#12
June 09, 2013, 01:50:56 PM
Quote from: Steerpike
Basically I'm not usually in favour of a less-is-more attitude.

I think the majority of people in this thread have the same mindset. Mechanics define your character in so many ways in d20 systems; extreme reductionism typically just kills depth. Granted, I have the opposite mindset when it comes to FATE and other narrativist systems, at which point I'm totally in favor of extreme reductionism in favor of MOAR ASPECTS, but that's another story entirely.
AnIndex of My Work

Quote from: Sparkletwist
It's llitul and the brain, llitul and the brain, one is a genius and the other's insane
Proud Receiver of a Golden Dorito
[spoiler=SRD AND OGC AND LEGAL JUNK]UNLESS OTHERWISE NOTED IN THE POST, NONE OF THE ABOVE CONTENT IS CONSIDERED OGC, EXCEPT FOR MATERIALS ALREADY MADE OGC BY PRIOR PUBLISHERS
Appendix I: Open Game License Version 1.0a
The following text is the property of Wizards of the Coast, Inc. and is Copyright 2000 Wizards of the Coast, Inc ("Wizards"). All Rights Reserved.
1. Definitions: (a)"Contributors" means the copyright and/or trademark owners who have contributed Open Game Content; (b)"Derivative Material" means copyrighted material including derivative works and translations (including into other computer languages), potation, modification, correction, addition, extension, upgrade, improvement, compilation, abridgment or other form in which an existing work may be recast, transformed or adapted; (c) "Distribute" means to reproduce, license, rent, lease, sell, broadcast, publicly display, transmit or otherwise distribute; (d)"Open Game Content" means the game mechanic and includes the methods, procedures, processes and routines to the extent such content does not embody the Product Identity and is an enhancement over the prior art and any additional content clearly identified as Open Game Content by the Contributor, and means any work covered by this License, including translations and derivative works under copyright law, but specifically excludes Product Identity. (e) "Product Identity" means product and product line names, logos and identifying marks including trade dress; artifacts; creatures characters; stories, storylines, plots, thematic elements, dialogue, incidents, language, artwork, symbols, designs, depictions, likenesses, formats, poses, concepts, themes and graphic, photographic and other visual or audio representations; names and descriptions of characters, spells, enchantments, personalities, teams, personas, likenesses and special abilities; places, locations, environments, creatures, equipment, magical or supernatural abilities or effects, logos, symbols, or graphic designs; and any other trademark or registered trademark clearly identified as Product identity by the owner of the Product Identity, and which specifically excludes the Open Game Content; (f) "Trademark" means the logos, names, mark, sign, motto, designs that are used by a Contributor to identify itself or its products or the associated products contributed to the Open Game License by the Contributor (g) "Use", "Used" or "Using" means to use, Distribute, copy, edit, format, modify, translate and otherwise create Derivative Material of Open Game Content. (h) "You" or "Your" means the licensee in terms of this agreement.
2. The License: This License applies to any Open Game Content that contains a notice indicating that the Open Game Content may only be Used under and in terms of this License. You must affix such a notice to any Open Game Content that you Use. No terms may be added to or subtracted from this License except as described by the License itself. No other terms or conditions may be applied to any Open Game Content distributed using this License.
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4. Grant and Consideration: In consideration for agreeing to use this License, the Contributors grant You a perpetual, worldwide, royalty-free, non-exclusive license with the exact terms of this License to Use, the Open Game Content.
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7. Use of Product Identity: You agree not to Use any Product Identity, including as an indication as to compatibility, except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of each element of that Product Identity. You agree not to indicate compatibility or co-adaptability with any Trademark or Registered Trademark in conjunction with a work containing Open Game Content except as expressly licensed in another, independent Agreement with the owner of such Trademark or Registered Trademark. The use of any Product Identity in Open Game Content does not constitute a challenge to the ownership of that Product Identity. The owner of any Product Identity used in Open Game Content shall retain all rights, title and interest in and to that Product Identity.
8. Identification: If you distribute Open Game Content You must clearly indicate which portions of the work that you are distributing are Open Game Content.
9. Updating the License: Wizards or its designated Agents may publish updated versions of this License. You may use any authorized version of this License to copy, modify and distribute any Open Game Content originally distributed under any version of this License.
10 Copy of this License: You MUST include a copy of this License with every copy of the Open Game Content You Distribute.
11. Use of Contributor Credits: You may not market or advertise the Open Game Content using the name of any Contributor unless You have written permission from the Contributor to do so.
12 Inability to Comply: If it is impossible for You to comply with any of the terms of this License with respect to some or all of the Open Game Content due to statute, judicial order, or governmental regulation then You may not Use any Open Game Material so affected.
13 Termination: This License will terminate automatically if You fail to comply with all terms herein and fail to cure such breach within 30 days of becoming aware of the breach. All sublicenses shall survive the termination of this License.
14 Reformation: If any provision of this License is held to be unenforceable, such provision shall be reformed only to the extent necessary to make it enforceable.
15 COPYRIGHT NOTICE
Open Game License v 1.0 Copyright 2000, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.
Fudge 10th Anniversary Edition Copyright 2005, Grey Ghost Press, Inc.; Authors Steffan O'Sullivan and Ann Dupuis, with additional material by Jonathan Benn, Peter Bonney, Deird'Re Brooks, Reimer Behrends, Don Bisdorf, Carl Cravens, Shawn Garbett, Steven Hammond, Ed Heil, Bernard Hsiung, J.M. "Thijs" Krijger, Sedge Lewis, Shawn Lockard, Gordon McCormick, Kent Matthewson, Peter Mikelsons, Robb Neumann, Anthony Roberson, Andy Skinner, William Stoddard, Stephan Szabo, John Ughrin, Alex Weldon, Duke York, Dmitri Zagidulin
System Reference Document Copyright 2000-2003, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Skip Williams, Rich Baker, Andy Collins, David Noonan, Rich Redman, Bruce R. Cordell, based on original material by E. Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson.

Modern System Reference Doument Copyright 2002, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Authors Bill Slavicsek, Jeff Grubb, Rich Redman, Charles Ryan, based on material by Jonathan Tweet, Monte Cook, Richard Baker, Peter Adkison, Bruce R. Cordell, John Tynes, Andy Collins, and JD Walker.

Unearthed Arcana Copyright 2004, Wizards of the Coast, Inc.; Andy Collins, Jesse Decker, David Noonan, Rich Redman.

Mutants and Masterminds Second Edition Copyright 2005, Green Ronin Publishing; Steve Kenson
Fate (Fantastic Adventures in Tabletop Entertainment) Copyright 2003 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue and Fred Hicks.
Spirit of the Century Copyright 2006 by Evil Hat Productions, LLC. Authors Robert Donoghue, Fred Hicks, and Leonard Balsera
Xathan's forum posts at http://www.thecbg.org Copyright 2006-2011, J.A. Raizman.
[/spoiler]

LordVreeg

#13
June 09, 2013, 01:51:26 PM
Quote from: Steerpike

Basically I'm not usually in favour of a less-is-more attitude.
Yes, I use less is more in some games, but only if the game is designed to play that way.  Less is more is for a gamestyle, not a campaign style.  any time I want the crunch to actually support the fluff and synergize, less-is-more goes away.  
VerkonenVreeg, The Nice.Celtricia, World of Factions

Steel Island Online gaming thread
The Collegium Arcana Online Game
Old, evil, twisted, damaged, and afflicted.  Orbis non sufficit.Thread Murderer Extraordinaire, and supposedly pragmatic...\"That is my interpretation. That the same rules designed to reduce the role of the GM and to empower the player also destroyed the autonomy to create a consistent setting. And more importantly, these rules reduce the Roleplaying component of what is supposed to be a \'Fantasy Roleplaying game\' to something else\"-Vreeg

Humabout

#14
June 09, 2013, 02:07:24 PM
Quote from: LordVreeg
Quote from: Newb Auld Lang Syne
Quote from: Xathan
Quote from: Steerpike
Quote from: XathanWhich may be one of the most hilariously accurate things I have heard said about "Race" in fantasy in awhile. So looking at, for example, Pathfinder Gnomes:

Ability Modifiers: So gnomes are healthier but not as strong as most. I can buy that. They are also, genetically, more likable? Affable? Uh...okay, stupid, but not too bad.
Gnome Magic: Okay, gnomes are naturally magical, I can dig it.
Low Light Vision - Alright, works for cats in the real world, so that's totally inborn, go with it.
Defensive Training: So...every gnome ever born ever is trained to fight giants? Even ones born in areas hundreds of miles from the nearest giant, whose great great grandfather wouldn't know a giant from an oak? Is an innate trait of gnomes? Yeah, I don't buy it.
Hatred: OH MY GOD every single gnome ever hates reptiles and goblins no matter what. So a gnome that grew up in an arctic environment has a hatred of reptiles because he despises the way they freeze to death?

This would be valid, except that Pathfinder Gnomes (like all Pathfinder races) are built to be specifically customizable.   Here's the page for Gnomes.  The traits you described are just the "Standard" or default Racial Traits.  There's an entire list of Alternate Racial Traits below that which can be substituted out for things like Hatred, Defensive Training, etc.  Don't like Hatred?  Sub it out for Warden of Nature or Master Tinker.  No need for Weapon Familiarity with your Gnome Wizard?  Take Academician, Fell Magic, or Magical Linguist instead.  There's also 4 subraces listed for even greater variety, plus a slew of racial feats and class archetypes.  These abilities and options are there specifically to fight against the idea of racial monoculture and role-forcing.

And that is why Pathfinder > DnD 3.5. I probably should have referenced the latter Gnomes instead, but I had my Pathfinder core book on me at work, so it was easiest. However, things like what you mentioned is exactly what I think a good system needs to counteract the problems I mentioned.

And really, what Xathan and Steerpike we're talking about is exactly what I've been trying to fix with my own games. Breaking down races into physical aspects and keeping cultural stuff out of the mix. Heck maybe "culture" is to restrictive of a term. Why shouldn't it be based on personality too? Personal quirks, interests, experiences. and so on too influence what types of bonuses you get, and what extra skills you get.

Or else you add the two together and either have different cultures or race/culture mixes as possible.   And also, while designing a wide-open game does not allow for this, I always base my racial/cultural mix (we roll for race, so I actually adjust the race chart based on the area) on the play area.  
I have also started to create adjusted social Acquisition charts per game, which is a chart we use to give skill, experience, and item bonuses based on the area and social level of the character in question, which helps build a race/culture back story.

Just my take, but I totally find myself in the camp of adjusting that which should be cultural to fit the area and backstory.  
This!

I prefer to have a list of racial templates that only represent the physiology and instinct of a race (e.g., short, slow, fast, five arms, slimy, get really ill-tempered during rut, instinctively territorial, etc.).  Basically, the form and nature of a being that can't really be overriden.  Then I have a ton of cultural lenses that get added to the racial one depending on where the PC is from and who raised him, etc.  These reflect upbringing, social norms of the culture, etc.  Lastly, there is usually a "stigma" lens - for lack of a better word at the moment - that reflects how the predominant society views and treat that race/culture; for example, a Jew in medieval England would have one stigma lens, a Saracen another, a Norseman another, a Frenchman, yet another, etc.

Personality, by nature of GURPS is always a personal choice; although, culture lenses may impose certain attitudes (that the player chose when he picked that cultural lens).

I find this to be the best way to situate a character within a setting using the system, while avoiding a lot of weirdness described above.  I'm sure much of it could be adapted to d20 with ease (racial template vs. cultural lens), and the rest probably ignored mechanically (all the social stuff) and just roleplayed out.
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