The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: Salacious_AngelThat's the problem right there. I seriously, seriously beg to differ.
...
(I'd gladly give my reasoned arguments why - since it's a fiction people really do take incredibly seriously - but not in this dinky little sidebar)

That's just it though--people saying rape culture isn't a problem is the problem.  And I understand why you don't believe it.  It's still fiction to you.  However, I remain puzzled as to why you don't believe it because the author provided ample evidence in the forms of facts and visual aids.  

"In the recent demo Hotline Miami 2: Wrong Number, Pig Butcher approaches the only woman in the demo with the screen ordering "FINISH HER" and drops his pants. Then the director screams "Cut!" Of course they wouldn't rape a woman...Because the most horrifying thing that can happen to a woman isn't a real issue, it's just a game, it was a joke, don't take it so serious, and now you understand rape culture."

~~~~~~~~~~~

Rape culture is when a woman is kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and peed on with the entire footage blasted on the internet and the media laments how the boys who did it—now their lives are ruined.  The term "rape culture" was coined very recently, in response to the Steubanville case.  So many people thought it was funny, what happened to the girl.  It was normal.  She drank too much, she dressed too suggestively, she deserved it.  

It shifts the focus off of the rapist and onto the (most of the time) woman where it doesn't belong.

Everyone who is interested in continuing this discussion, please read the following article in its entirety.

http://www.cracked.com/blog/6-sexist-video-game-problems-even-bigger-than-breasts/

You only alluded to this in the chatbox, but my biggest contention whenever this discussion comes up is the notion - one I have with some frequency heard expressed over the past year or so  - that a woman who is intoxicated to any degree cannot give consent. Alcohol does not make anyone do anything against their will.

I am not contesting that a person overintoxicated to the point where they are rendered physically helpless can give consent. They cannot. I will admit that this is not necessarily a clear cut issue, but I think it's really a matter of just using common sense to determine when someone is too drunk.

I think focusing entirely on how drunk she is misses the real heart of the problem: that it's still considered acceptable to encourage women to consume large quantities of mind-altering substances for the sole purpose of getting them to sleep with you.

I shall be succinct, but first let me add to Seraphine's instruction that you should also read the comments beneath the article. Many of the posters there address the article's flaws, and it would be misspent energy to repeat their rebuttals here. As for my own points:

Quote from: Seraphine_Harmonium"Rape Culture" may be a new term but it definitely describes a real tendency in American society to endorse socially acceptable forms of rape, such as getting a girl drunk

This is a heavy statement to make.

Endorsing/socially acceptable/forms of rape/such as getting a girl drunk. This assumes the following, working backwards:

• That getting a girl drunk is a form of rape. This may be true legally speaking - I cannot speak to the follies of American jurisprudence. It is not, actually rape. It can be morally objectionable, even reprehensible, but it isn't rape. Rape is a specific kind of thing and I reject the continuing efforts to soften its definition.
  
  
• That this behaviour is socially acceptable. I grant that many (I will not grant the majority) of young men I once associated with would feel no compunctions against plying a woman with alcohol. I do not, however, know many who were not similarly inebriated at the time. Even if they were sober and intending to intoxicate the woman, she retains her agency and responsibilities as an adult. Even granting your point for the sake of argument, it nevertheless remains that "socially acceptable" means two totally different things depending on the moral status of the first point. It is either socially acceptable rape or socially acceptable not-rape. This makes all the difference in the world.
  
  
• That American society tends to endorse this behaviour. Endorsement and acceptance are not the same thing, so it is important to separate these two points. I'll assume you did not mean that society "puts forward", "publicly approves" or "supports" these behaviours, whether they constitute rape or not. If you did, well... we don't merely live on different continents, but different planets.

Quoteas well as attitudes like "slut-shaming" and victim blaming.

I've known a great many sluts and a fair few victims both here and in the USA. These "attitudes" toward sluts and victims are alien to me and my milieu. I will not pretend that they do not exist, but their existing is no evidence of their being endemic, accepted or endorsed.

QuoteThese things aren't just made up by feminazis.

Yes. Yes they really are.

Quote"In the recent demo Hotline Miami 2: Wrong Number, Pig Butcher approaches the only woman in the demo with the screen ordering "FINISH HER" and drops his pants. Then the director screams "Cut!" Of course they wouldn't rape a woman...Because the most horrifying thing that can happen to a woman isn't a real issue, it's just a game, it was a joke, don't take it so serious, and now you understand rape culture."

Or how about in the first game where you kill in excess of several hundred men in extraordinarily violent ways but the first woman you encounter (a strung out junkie) you rescue from the bloodbath and detox. Both games are filled with the violent murder of men. It is testament to our positive attitudes concerning rape that your aforementioned scene has more emotional impact than the holocaust that precedes it. Now I could argue this as proof that men are in fact disenfranchised in gaming. But I won't. Because it's simplistic.

QuoteRape culture is when a woman is kidnapped, sexually assaulted, and peed on with the entire footage blasted on the internet and the media laments how the boys who did it—now their lives are ruined.

Some elements of the media might have done this. Members of her own community certainly did. "The media" certainly did not. This mischaracterises the whole event.

QuoteThe term "rape culture" was coined very recently, in response to the Steubanville case.

I don't care how recent it is. It is loaded, specious and inflammatory and deserves to be picked apart (so do the terms misogyny and misandry, but that's for later). It would deserve to be picked apart even if it represented a legitimite phenomenon. But it doesn't.

Quote from: SuperbrightI think focusing entirely on how drunk she is misses the real heart of the problem: that it's still considered acceptable to encourage women to consume large quantities of mind-altering substances for the sole purpose of getting them to sleep with you.

We are not talking about whether it is acceptable. The question is: does that "culturally acceptable" behaviour constitute rape, not definitionally (people may define anything however they like, shifting the language to serve their agenda) but morally. We are talking about Rape culture. That incredibly loaded word was chosen for its unassailability (who wants to be a rape apologist?), so as a lover of honest discourse and clear communication I'm here to assail it.

In summary: I can grant that there is much wrong with cultural attitudes regarding sex, sexuality and the sexes. And that gaming's gender representations are in need of correction (the question of how deserves a conversation of its own). It remains that the article's thesis is fatally, poisonously flawed. It contributes nothing of value to the conversation. The four of us could explore this topic far more compellingly than Cracked did. Perhaps we should.

Having played WoW for a while with a female character, I can say stuff like the Fat, Ugly or Slutty happens a lot.  I was solicited, begged for webcam chats/photos and sent more than a few inappropriate comments, links and photos.

Rape culture exists because a vocal minority of men want to be pigs and society endorses and encourages their behavior through deed, leniency and excuses.

The worst comments I have seen for this disgusting culture are ones where people say stuff like, "you know she enjoyed it!" or "by the end of it, she had a smile on her face!" Absolutely disgusting.

"Rape Culture" is not the endorsement of chauvinistic behaviour.

I will say it again: using the word "rape" to describe things that are not-nearly-halfway-kinda-even-sorta-like rape is specious and destructive. It's not clever rhetoric, it's insidious Newspeak. Those of you who honestly believe " society endorses and encourages their behavior through deed, leniency and excuses" had better pony up with some hard proof genuinely demonstrating the majority's endorsement of rape.

Pointing to gaming culture is wholly insufficient. The silent gaming majority have nothing invested in the defense of those aggrieved by the abuses of the minority because they aren't paying to undertake a social justice cause. That is not their responsibility. So maybe the good eggs don't say anything because they're busy getting their money's worth, not because they endorse reprehensible behaviour. Do not attribute intent to the millions of gamers whom you've never met and whose motives you simply cannot discern.

Also, however real a problem chauvinism might otherwise be in gaming, it is not indicative of the same reality offline. Rape culture is about the society at large, not some selective account of gaming's digital microcosm. Show me how our society is a rape culture. Not chauvinistic. A rape culture.

My only input at this stage in the discussion is to state my objections to the complaints levied at "Other M" and the "Lara Croft" reboot in that article; I object, end of objections. I won't waist a whole lot of my finger strength type/defending the games, though, as it's largely irrelevant. All I'll say is that the use of trope-worthy elements when expanding a character's depth from a simple one-dimensional description to a full, living, breathing character, are not bad things, unless that character becomes solely the trope. Turn tropes on their head if you want, but the use of them isn't immediately sinful.

To the rest of the discussion, there is an issue at large in society when things are overlooked, or worse entirely turned around. Blaming the victim is probably the worst thing I've seen. "Boys will be boys" as an explanation is pretty bad too, if only for it's foundational position in many people's lives. The fact that a large chunk of society is trained how to avoid behavior almost makes it sound like that behavior is a force of nature that can't be trained.

This happens in a lot of areas other than issues now called "rape culture". Rather than treating the source of the problem, we work to prevent the symptoms. I won't get into analogies, though, as I feel comparing anything else to "don't rape" belittles the horror of the act.

And as to the repeatedly mentioned "getting a woman drunk" issue that keeps coming up, one thing to remember is that rape doesn't mean "forced rape". Alcohol might not make you do something you aren't choosing to do (while your conscious at least), but it does remove your inhibitions. Lets say I was suitably drunk at a party, and a friend who is not my wife is hitting on me. Well, I'm too drunk to tell myself it's a bad idea, so I go through with it. Now, I'm probably not going to call that a rape, unless the friend liquored me up with the explicit intention to seduce me. Then again ... I don't know, it hasn't happened to me.

I do know people that object to the use of the word "rape" to mean "to conquer" or "to destroy", a use of it very frequently used by gamers.

  From Wikipedia: "Rape culture is a concept which links rape and sexual violence to the culture of a society,[1] and in which prevalent attitudes and practices normalize, excuse, tolerate, or even condone rape.[2]

Examples of behaviors commonly associated with rape culture include victim blaming, sexual objectification, and trivializing rape."

From Wikipedia: "The U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, which defines rape as penetration by the offender, and excludes rape by envelopment,[111] states that 91% of rape victims are female and 9% are male, and 99% of rapists are male.[112] One of six U.S. women has experienced an attempted or completed rape.[113] More than a quarter of college age women report having experienced a rape or rape attempt since age 14."

From Wikipedia: "Rape prevalence among women in the U.S. (the percentage of women who experienced rape at least once in their lifetime so far) is in the range of 15%–20%, with different studies agreeing with each other. (National Violence against Women survey, 1995, found 17.6% prevalence rate;[5] a 2007 national study for the Department of Justice on rape found 18% prevalence rate.[6])"

From Wikipedia: "The 2010 National Intimate Partner and Sexual Violence Survey found that 13.1% of lesbians, 46.1% of bisexual women, and 17.4% of heterosexual women have been raped.[10] In a San Francisco study, 68% of trans women and 55% of trans men reported having been raped.[11]"

From Wikipedia: "The USA reports about 85,000 rapes a year, about 29 rapes per 100,000 population (58 rapes every year per 100,000 women).[27] There is a rape in the US every 6.2 minutes, with 1 in 5 women likely to be raped in her lifetime."


Prison Rape jokes (like "don't drop the soap") are very common. These jokes are tolerated because, "you're in prison for a reason."

Rape in the military is horrifyingly high (where victims are of both genders), yet nothing is really done to punish the rapists.

Like I mentioned with WoW, I received many lewd comments. One person even thought that, because my Blood Elf Paladin was so "hot," that I must be super hot as well, and therefore assumed it would be acceptable to send a picture of his genitals to me and ask if the sight of his manhood made me wet.

The fact that wikipedia describes an idea does not mean it describes an actual phenomenon that exists. I won't take wikipedia seriously as a source of quotable information and nor should you.

Both your Bureau of Justice and Center for Disease Control exclude envelopment from their definitions of rape. This makes determining the prevalence of non-penetrative female-initiated rape literally impossible. So we don't actually have rape statistics. We have penetration statistics.

Also, "very common" and "horrifyingly high" are not figures. They contain no data. They are weasel words.

So far you have presented only one-sided and incomplete statistics for rape itself and none whatsoever for the social perspective thereof. This is thoroughly unconvincing.

Quote from: Elemental_ElfPrison Rape jokes (like "don't drop the soap") are very common. These jokes are tolerated because, "you're in prison for a reason."

Or because people can appreciate black humour. I like Dead Baby Jokes. They're funny to me because they're fucked up and reprehensible. Not because I endorse the killing of babies. Other people might tolerate these jokes because they're cool with infanticide, but it's not for me to say. Don't impute motive.

QuoteLike I mentioned with WoW, I received many lewd comments. One person even thought that, because my Blood Elf Paladin was so "hot," that I must be super hot as well, and therefore assumed it would be acceptable to send a picture of his genitals to me and ask if the sight of his manhood made me wet.

Again, chauvinism, not rape. I'm not talking about what I'm not talking about.

Quote from: XeviatLets say I was suitably drunk at a party, and a friend who is not my wife is hitting on me. Well, I'm too drunk to tell myself it's a bad idea, so I go through with it.

This dovetails into a new conversation about agency and culpability in a culture that endorses (Hah! That word again) the consumption of judgment-eroding substances. It's not "blaming the victim", but something remains to be said about permitting the abdication of personal agency.

This is a sensitive topic and I suggest people tread lightly. Before you hit "post", please walk away from your computer and think about whether or not what you have to say is really worth it.

Several points relating to rape culture and feminisim:

The term "rape culture" is not new. It dates to at least the 1975 film Rape Culture and has been widely used at least in academia since then.

The term "rape culture" does not have a universally agreed upon definition. The two most popular seem to be both in use in this thread. The first came from second wave feminism (which I'll address specifically below), and that is essentially a culture where rape is at the very least normalized, up to where it is condoned. The second does seem to be more recent, and includes the normalization not only of rape, but of all forms of sexual violence. Keep in mind that rape culture is only posited as a contributing factor towards rape. When people say it "endorses" rape, they do not mean (in most cases) the culture actively promotes sexual violence. Instead, the culture allows rapists to continue to rape because it turns a blind eye (essentially "if you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem"). Quibbling over the definition, though, is not very helpful.

It is very important to understand the context in which the term "rape culture", as well as "radical", or second-wave feminism arose. This, by the way, is most often the kind of feminism associated with "feminazis", even though the vast majority (all?) of work done in it was not at all like people's conceptions of "feminazis", and many of the concepts that it introduced are now taken for granted even outside of academia.

So, a brief history of feminism. First-wave feminism is the label applied to a number of movements from the 19th century to the early 20th century. This is most associated with the women's suffrage movement, and I think it's important to reflect on just how recently women even in Western Europe and North America got the right to vote (1944 for universal women's suffrage in France, 1928 in Great Britain, and 1919 in the United States). So women not having the right to vote has only quite recently started to pass beyond living memory. It's also important to keep in mind that this was coupled with other movements for political rights, such as the right to hold property in their own name (rather than it being entirely owned by their husbands); in the US, Maine was the first state to grant this right completely in 1844.

Second-wave feminism begins in the 1960s, and its main focus was on many of the remaining inequalities, especially (though certainly not limited to) those that were not confined to the law, especially influencing how society viewed women (i.e., the shift from unequal to equal in terms of the kinds and durations of careers, attitudes towards being able to express one's sexuality, etc.). Many issues they tackled lead directly to the kinds of things we're discussing here. For instance, the illegalization of marital rape in the US was begun under second-wave feminism (but notably this took quite some time--the last state to make it illegal was North Carolina in 1993). Certainly, even under a very narrow definition of rape culture, this is condoning (by silence and inactivity on the matter) rape, at least in a specific case.

Perhaps due in part to a few extreme cases, but I think really just a latter day conservative backlash against feminism upsetting the normal cultural values in the US and elsewhere, second-wave feminism often has the people who are considered to be the most radical of all the feminists. Of course, the one person here that ever said anything like "All men are rapists" (which at least some people do believe was a thing that someone involved in second-wave feminism actually said and believed), was the words of the fictional character Val in Marilyn French's (fictional) novel The Women's Room. And, as usual, this actual quotation is much more nuanced when not taken out of context: "Whatever they may be in public life, whatever their relationships with men, in their relationships with women, all men are rapists, and that's all they are. They rape us with their eyes, their laws, and their codes."

Feminism after this gets a lot of different labels, and since labeling them isn't really going to be a productive part of my discussion going forward, I'll save my own sanity and not try to cover everything. If you are interested, the Wikipedia articles on the subject are thorough and supported with proper citations.

Finally, someone has of course brought up the so-called "feminazis", or perhaps better "straw feminists" (see above in part). First a point, then a question. We can thank Rush Limbaugh, the US conservative radio host, for popularizing the term (he claims one of his friends made it up). His views on feminism are just a bit extreme: "Feminism was established so as to allow unattractive women easier access to the mainstream of society" (from this interview of him in Time.). And he claims that, for feminazis, "...the most important thing in life is ensuring that as many abortions as possible occur" (from his book The Way Things Ought to Be). I mean, I guess if we want to use the term "feminazi" we can, but I kind of question Limbaugh's accuracy at times. And certainly we would then want, as has been called for throughout the discussion, to stick strictly to Limbaugh's definition. (A note to the sarcastically impaired: some of this section was sarcasm.)

So, on to the question: in regards to this: can you name one actual, real live person who holds the beliefs you all attribute to a "feminazi"? If not, I think we really ought to consider them some kind of bogey(wo)men.

It is late. I'll address what I actually wanted to talk about (a feminist perspective on modern video games) sometime in the near future. There's a lot of very valid criticisms the Cracked article entirely misses.

Quote from: limetomThis is a sensitive topic and I suggest people tread lightly. Before you hit "post", please walk away from your computer and think about whether or not what you have to say is really worth it.

Do my posts sound heated? If so, I apologise. I was in fact enjoying this conversation. My words are succinct in the interest of economy and so may seem blunt.

Quote from: limetomin regards to this: can you name one actual, real live person who holds the beliefs you all attribute to a "feminazi"? If not, I think we really ought to consider them some kind of bogey(wo)men.

I attribute no beliefs to any feminazi. I invite you to ignore my response to Seraphine's use of the term as it is the sole ironic remark in all of my posts. Feminazis do not exist. I should have said that the ideas are simply made up, rather than agreeing that they were made up by feminazis

QuoteQuibbling over the definition, though, is not very helpful.

It's not a quibble to differentiate between "encouragement" and "allowance". If you say endorse but don't mean endorse, you are mucking about with the language (people are welcome to do this, but then we can't actually communicate) . Regardless, I have addressed both interpretations.

QuoteThe term "rape culture" does not have a universally agreed upon definition.

I shan't fight a ghost. It means one thing at least for the sake of argument or it doesn't mean anything.

I believe I have clarified my reasons for disagreeing with the thesis of the Cracked article and with the Seraphine's specific comment in the tavern. I'll respond to disputes over my own points but I will not participate in the conversation as it diverges from my original purpose. I have no positive contribution to make to a "feminist perspective on videogames", as feminism (insofar as it is an unambiguous and identifiable thing; see above) is inimical to my worldview. Seraphine graciously offered his/her(?) final word and now I have rendered mine.

So many terms and twists! Does it not suffice to say that this so called Rape-culture does not have its place?

So this conversation wouldn't be occurring if it the accepted term for this phenomena were called Chauvinism-Culture?

I am at work after a grueling trip.  So I am making excuses if I am less than up to standards for a real conversation with my friends here.  And I say that because I respect the people on this site more than almost anywhere; we have had a number of very real and useful starts and stops.  But that is what a broad cultural conversation has to be.  Because we are talking about a multifaceted culture, intellect, and biological ongoing dynamic.
I grew up in a hotbed of this, and my mother's somewhat extreme work (she was head of the New England NOW chapter, and her political career has been long) was one of the things that forced my parents apart and my formative years were filled with heated arguments between my very intellectual parents.

It has been mentioned but not specifically declared that the term 'Rape Culture', as it is used in current conversation, is a subset of Chauvinism.  It has been suggested that they are different, and this is correct; this is a Venn Diagram where the one (Rape Culture) is nearly totally inside the other (Chauvinism), but where one does not equal the other.  Making this distinction helps, I think. 
This particular Venn subset exists within others, and understanding this also is useful.

I also need to point out that this is a cross-cultural issue, that many cultures are dealing with this specific combination.  And it is not a new thing, while the term is new (historically) and like many terms, the term's actual meaning changes, or the definitions proliferate.   It is a definition of a thing that does exist, that needs defining as a culture as we grow, though I am sure my definition is different than many.  In my view, it is an attitude that reduces or negates a persons ability towards full consent in a sexual situation, and the idea that this lack of consent is an acceptable part of culture.
Please note that my definition would be another circle of the Venn Diagram, one that would greatly intersect the others, but not In Toto.  I can get into my reasoning later, if it is warranted, but suffice it to say that I believe that wrapping gender into the equation as a necessary part complicates and deprioritizes the contributing factors.  But I do believe that much of the historical, visceral and thus cultural affect is greatly, and that is an understatement, tied to gender roles and chauvinism.  I prioritize personhood above gender identity and I think it helps the conversation.

Please note that my definition clearly includes EE's examples of people sending him sexual pictures without consent.  If it was merely the chat requests or requests or jokes based purely on Gender, as opposed to sex, it would be chauvinism.  As soon as a person unambiguously 'sexualizes' this, in assuming you want such a picture without obtaining consent, I place it under the banner of Rape Culture. 

And though we are all forced to jump around (none of us can truly answer this in a short format), one thing I agree with in the article (and again, Cracked should not be taken to task too heavily nor taken too seriously, I, for one, have enjoyed their foray into pseudo-intellectualism over the last decade) is that is, paraphrased, that perception is reality to everyone, and that having the discussion, as we are, is the only way to better understand and to enable a better shared perspective.

Finally, you allow people to criticize games and gender in narratives and allow the discussion to continue within game spaces without derailing the conversation. This is the best way we can learn from each other and improve the future of gaming. If someone is trying to prevent a discussion of a problem, they are that problem.