The Campaign Builder's Guild

Your issue is with branding and your refusal to even discuss the Male Centric, Male Dominated, Female Dis-empowering world in which we live is, frankly, disheartening. You are falling into a trap, a trap designed by the political elite who do not want to discuss this issue in any meaningful way. They want you to get hung up on words, rather than the greater issues. They want you to expend all of your effort debating semantics because by the time you finally get around to the real issues, either your opinion will be so hardened that you can easily be labeled an extremist or you will grow so weary of the fight that you bow out entirely.

Quote from: Salacious AngelHere's all my cards on the table: I am deliberately, unequivocally disputing feminist terminology as loading the discourse and as having an ethos in actual conflict with humanist thought. If you are saying you're a "humanist with a funny hat", fine. But you share your name with a sociopolitical lunatic fringe while purporting to be unlike them. What makes you unlike them yet still sufficiently "feminist-which-is-more-than-simply-humanist" to warrant the label?

Should we tar an entire intellectual and critical condition with one brush on the grounds of its "lunatic fringe"?  Especially one that's had such a positive impact on the lives of so many (the movement generally, not its fringe)?

For me, I see feminism as a movement that began as an activist and intellectual struggle for women's rights in the face of descrimination and institionalized sexism, and which has since grown into a complex branch of discourse that intersects with dozens of other branches: humanism, marxism, liberalism, socialism, egalitarianism, all of these things and more.

Perhaps it's just because I'm relatively well-versed in different currents in academia and discourse, I dunno.  I've never seen feminism as one thing - or liberalism, or humanism, or anarchism or marxism or consveratism or any other -ism.  There are lots of different versions of these things, iterations of these things.  They represent distinct viewpoints, and those who work within them have individual viewpoints more distinct still.  There are lots of struggles and contradictions and contentions within every "-ism" on the planet.

I do understand that the term is loaded, perhaps unfortunately.  Perhaps it's time the term changed - perhaps it's outlived its usefullness (or perhaps it was never a good term to begin with).  I just don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater, I guess.

EDIT: It would be nice if our discourse was rationally laid out and labeled and neatly categorized and terms always fit the ideas within them properly.  But that's just not the reality of how the interchange of ideas works, IMO.  This is just the regrettable reality of how discourse functions and grows.

Quote from: Elemental_elfYou are falling into a trap, a trap designed by the political elite who do not want to discuss this issue in any meaningful way.

Let's assume we each possess sufficient agency to argue the merits of positions as we best understand them. My thoughts are my own, as your thoughts are yours. I have not been socially engineered.

Quote from: Elemental_ElfYour issue is with branding and your refusal to even discuss the Male Centric, Male Dominated, Female Dis-empowering world in which we live is, frankly, disheartening.

I do deny that we live in a Male Centric, Male Dominated, Female Dis-empowering world. I am absolutely willing to discuss this, but no-one has actually raised this argument (the concept of rape culture might be related, but it is not the same). I am not willing to take any of your above assertions as given.

Quote from: SteerpikeShould we tar an entire intellectual and critical condition with one brush on the grounds of its "lunatic fringe"?

That is neither what I am doing nor what I am asking to be done.



If you claim membership within a movement yet profess no beliefs that are distinctly that movement's own (in whatever variation), then by what metric are you actually a member of that movement? Feminism is both multiordinal and multivalent. To the extent that someone claims to hold beliefs within feminism's exclusive remit, I need to know what distinguishes them from other beliefs within feminism's remit. Otherwise we cannot discuss a coherent "feminist perspective".

This is the heart of the problem. You say we are "probably on the same page" because we both agree to the elements of feminism which are not unique to it. If this was all feminism actually was, feminism as a collection of overlapping but otherwise distinct and intelligible philosophies would not exist.

EDIT: this naturally does not prevent you all from discussing this topic among yourselves. I'll remain an enthusiastic spectator even if the subject proceeds from premises which I dispute.

Quote from: Salacious Angel

Quote from: Elemental_elfYou are falling into a trap, a trap designed by the political elite who do not want to discuss this issue in any meaningful way.

Let's assume we each possess sufficient agency to argue the merits of positions as we best understand them. My thoughts are my own, as your thoughts are yours. I have not been socially engineered.

We are all products of social engineering. If you were born into a different society, you would not be who you are right now.

Quote from: Salacious Angel

Quote from: Elemental_ElfYour issue is with branding and your refusal to even discuss the Male Centric, Male Dominated, Female Dis-empowering world in which we live is, frankly, disheartening.

I do deny that we live in a Male Centric, Male Dominated, Female Dis-empowering world. I am absolutely willing to discuss this, but no-one has actually raised this argument (the concept of rape culture might be related, but it is not the same). I am not willing to take any of your above assertions as given.

Except you weren't on the first page.

QuoteAgain, chauvinism, not rape. I'm not talking about what I'm not talking about.

If you have changed your opinion, then let us delve into it.

1 in 5 women in this country are likely to be raped.

Women still earn less than their male peers.

Women who are raped in the military routinely see their rapists get off scot-free.

What percentage of politicians are female? What percentage of top 500 companies' CEOs are female?

Prior to Healthcare Reform, women who were raped in the past and then raped again in the present were routinely denied Rape Kits and Psychological help because it was considered a pre-existing condition.

Many politicians still push laws that force women who become pregnant after being raped to carry their child to term.

Quote from: SAI do deny that we live in a Male Centric, Male Dominated, Female Dis-empowering world. I am absolutely willing to discuss this, but no-one has actually raised this argument (the concept of rape culture might be related, but it is not the same). I am not willing to take any of your above assertions as given.

Oh, bosh and bullshit.

Quote from: LVIt has been mentioned but not specifically declared that the term 'Rape Culture', as it is used in current conversation, is a subset of Chauvinism.  It has been suggested that they are different, and this is correct; this is a Venn Diagram where the one (Rape Culture) is nearly totally inside the other (Chauvinism), but where one does not equal the other.  Making this distinction helps, I think. 
This particular Venn subset exists within others, and understanding this also is useful.

I pretty much said earlier that they are not the same but oner is a subset of the other.   This HAS been gone over and the post attached was related and expanded.  There is much that is going to be messy and less than perfect, but this is one area that was at least gone into heavily earlier.


Going deeper into the term feminist, which, as might have been read before, I grew up with heavily, I see as clearly as anyone that much of the argument and underlying thought ignores history and biology, and frankly goes over the top looking for a reckoning and a resolution that would be no more 'equal' than the one that should be replaced.

However, my feelings on the best forms of feminism is that they look for common ground and conversation, and value, as I do, personhood above gender identity or sexuality.  As I have a child, a boy now 5 (yes, Nom, he is five now, V is 5), my goal is to teach him that consent is his goal in all relationships, male or female, that 'No means no' is not enough, he needs to earn an affirmative in any situation that involves sex or relationships.  To understand me better, realize I wrote much of my work in defence of existential psychology, particularly in the school of Rollo May.  I see much of the more extreme versions of Feminism as immature formats, unaware of how they fit into the full context of existence, but at Feminism's core is a very humanistic attempt to place the agency of the person above the role created by the cultural aggregate.

Quote from: CrackedBut as soon as the guy turns up, she dissolves into tears and nursing. She could be machetifying a rapist cannibal into sashimi, but if the hero arrives she'll instantly collapse into helpless tears, safe in his arms. Because that's exactly what happens.

I do not think the person who wrote this has actually played The Last of Us. Ellie's behaviour makes complete sense in context.

Quote from: Cracked[referring to Bioshock] But if the woman can already rip holes in reality and/or enemy sternums, maybe they should have a character dynamic other than "Save me!"

Bioshock Infinite is badly written to the point of narrative incoherence. Besides which, Booker doesn't end up saving Elizabeth at all. She ends up drowning him in order to close the loop on an ontological paradox.

Both Bioshock Infinite and The Last of Us can just as easily be read as treatises on failed fatherhood and the impotence of traditional masculinity. Joel saves Ellie even though her sacrifice might save humankind. He doesn't do it because he's a Big Damn Hero; the loss of his first daughter twenty years ago was almost more than he could bear and he wasn't about to forsake his newfound surrogate. These stories are as much about human weakness as human strength. Neither vindicates the male protagonist's use of violence. Neither triumphs the abrogation of female autonomy (it just so happens that Bioshock infinite is also a nonsensical narrative mess).

Quote from: Elemental_ElfWe are all products of social engineering. If you were born into a different society, you would not be who you are right now.

Shall we both then disregard each other as talking heads? Of course not. We'll each speak our piece in respect and good faith.

Quote from: VreegOh, bosh and bullshit.

Umm. Or not.

What specifically is bosh and bullshit?

Quote from: Elemental_ElfExcept you weren't on the first page.

I can maintain everything I stated on the first page while denying what you just wrote. If I acknowledge the existence of a phenomenon but deny its being representative of some greater institutional force, then I am not acknowledging the existence of that greater force. I am being consistent in this.

Quote1 in 5 women in this country are likely to be raped.

Without comparable non-penetrative female-initiated rape statistics (again, explicitly identified as rape), that figure is not reflective of an actual disparity. The statistics are incomplete and cannot by themselves represent female disempowerment.

QuoteWomen still earn less than their male peers.

Not when you account for degrees of training and experience, sick leave and maternity leave. You invoked this statistic (which it isn't even), so if you want stats, show me yours (with sources) and I'll show you mine.

QuoteWomen who are raped in the military routinely see their rapists get off scot-free.

I'll take your word for it.

QuoteWhat percentage of politicians are female? What percentage of top 500 companies' CEOs are female?

This is not automatically evidence of discrimination. It might be evidence of different interests, different aspirations, different but equally negative expectations of both men and women, masculine competitiveness or ruthlessness... I'm not saying it's about any of these things. Or none of them. If you make the positive claim that this disparity is in any sense evidence of a "Male Centric, Male Dominated, Female Dis-empowering world", you must also exclude alternative explanations.

QuotePrior to Healthcare Reform, women who were raped in the past and then raped again in the present were routinely denied Rape Kits and Psychological help because it was considered a pre-existing condition.

Many politicians still push laws that force women who become pregnant after being raped to carry their child to term.

Neither of these are statistics. You aren't even saying that the laws have gone through (which would be something). I cannot do anything with this information.

And Vreeg, I know full well that you discussed Venn diagrams before. I invoked them in order to address a specific point regarding a request for one unambiguous feminist philosophy. I am not interested in "best forms".  If "at Feminism's core is a very humanistic attempt to place the agency of the person above the role created by the cultural aggregate", you still have not described something both positive and unique to feminism.

Quote from: Salacious Angel

Quote from: Elemental_ElfExcept you weren't on the first page.

I can maintain everything I stated on the first page while denying what you just wrote. If I acknowledge the existence of a phenomenon but deny its being representative of some greater institutional force, then I am not acknowledging the existence of that greater force. I am being consistent in this.

From my perspective, you are all over the place and shifting what you want to talk about. You deny and disregard much of what everyone else is saying, disavow all their statistics while providing none of your own to counter. It's always easier to defend than it is to attack.

Quote from: Salacious Angel

Quote1 in 5 women in this country are likely to be raped.

Without comparable non-penetrative female-initiated rape statistics (again, explicitly identified as rape), that figure is not reflective of an actual disparity. The statistics are incomplete and cannot by themselves represent female disempowerment.

From Rainn: "9 of every 10 rape victims were female in 2003.

About 3% of American men — or 1 in 33 — have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.1

   In 2003, 1 in every ten rape victims were male.
   2.78 million men in the U.S. have been victims of sexual assault or rape."

Quote from: Salacious Angel

QuoteWomen still earn less than their male peers.

Not when you account for degrees of training and experience, sick leave and maternity leave. You invoked this statistic (which it isn't even), so if you want stats, show me yours (with sources) and I'll show you mine.

Considering I have given you plenty of statistics, I feel disinclined to do the leg work.

Quote from: Salacious Angel

QuoteWomen who are raped in the military routinely see their rapists get off scot-free.

I'll take your word for it.

"According to a 2011 Newsweek report, women are more likely to be assaulted by a fellow soldier than killed in combat. In 2010, according to the Department of Defense's Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office there were 3,158 military sexual assaults reported, however the Pentagon's statistics say that that represents just 13.5 percent of the estimated 19,000 assaults that actually occurred that year.[11] During that period, only 575 of the cases were processed. Of the cases processed, only 96 went to court-martial.[1] Another investigation found that only one in five females and one in 15 males in the United States Air Force would report having been sexually assaulted by service members.[2]"

Quote from: Salacious Angel

QuoteWhat percentage of politicians are female? What percentage of top 500 companies' CEOs are female?

This is not automatically evidence of discrimination. It might be evidence of different interests, different aspirations, different but equally negative expectations of both men and women, masculine competitiveness or ruthlessness... I'm not saying it's about any of these things. Or none of them. If you make the positive claim that this disparity is in any sense evidence of a "Male Centric, Male Dominated, Female Dis-empowering world", you must also exclude alternative explanations.

Traditional gender roles are an insidious form of discrimination.

Quote from: Salacious Angel

QuotePrior to Healthcare Reform, women who were raped in the past and then raped again in the present were routinely denied Rape Kits and Psychological help because it was considered a pre-existing condition.

Many politicians still push laws that force women who become pregnant after being raped to carry their child to term.

Neither of these are statistics. You aren't even saying that the laws have gone through (which would be something). I cannot do anything with this information.

Let's do the reverse: Prove to me that we are not a sexist society. Prove to me that the Rape Culture isn't true.

I got the part about the Venn, I caught the later use.  Your comment was that "(the concept of rape culture might be related, but it is not the same)", and that no-one had raised it.
I did not merely discuss the diagram but specifically raised the idea that there was a relationship between Rape culture and chauvinism.  Much of the post dealt with the relationship between them.  I do not claim to be perfect or that more dicussion was needed, but please, do not pretend that no one had made the connection.

And claiming to be interested in and requiring, 'one unambiguous feminist philosophy', (italics yours) is like claiming one unambiguous existential philosophy.   Do you know the difference between 'Equity Feminism' and 'Gender Feminism"?  That by most psychologists, Feminism is considered to be a collection of movements, not a single clear ideal or philosophy, more defined by the end of promoting equality in social and societal roles beyond gender?  I find your request to be somewhat illogical in that there are many competing groups and philosophies within the movement, something you know full well before you made the request.

Quote from: SANot when you account for degrees of training and experience, sick leave and maternity leave. You invoked this statistic (which it isn't even), so if you want stats, show me yours (with sources) and I'll show you mine.

Yes, when you control stats like training, experience, et al, women still make less than men.  It seems true in almost all cases that the statistics are magnified still, there is a difference, especially after time, when equal experience and other causes are factored out.  but almost all 'studies' into equal pay count on women entering certain careers as a main reason for the inequity and do not bring in the realities of failed gender integration in the workforce.  Studies continually mention this as an issue, but to do consider it part of the problem.

Bed for me.  Thak you all, especially SA for the good conversation.

Quote from: Elemental_ElfFrom my perspective, you are all over the place and shifting what you want to talk about. You deny and disregard much of what everyone else is saying, disavow all their statistics while providing none of your own to counter. It's always easier to defend than it is to attack.

I disagree with much of what has been said on this thread and have explained in the clearest possible terms why I believe such claims are flawed or unsupported. I acknowledge and understand that this might give an evasive impression. If my earnest declaration to the contrary is insufficient there is little else I can do.

I will summarise and consolidate my position as soon as I have some time to pause and take stock of everything that's been said so far. There are numerous trains of thought to process if I am to give each of your points full consideration.

QuoteFrom Rainn: "9 of every 10 rape victims were female in 2003.

About 3% of American men — or 1 in 33 — have experienced an attempted or completed rape in their lifetime.1

   In 2003, 1 in every ten rape victims were male.
   2.78 million men in the U.S. have been victims of sexual assault or rape."

Also from Rainn:

Quote from: RAINNRape, as defined by the NCVS, is forced sexual intercourse. Forced sexual intercourse means vaginal, oral, or anal penetration by offender(s). This category includes incidents where the penetration is from a foreign object such as a bottle.

As you can see this still excludes envelopment. It is therefore still incomplete and not indicative of disparity.

QuoteConsidering I have given you plenty of statistics, I feel disinclined to do the leg work.

Statistics include figures. The few you have provided fall within the onesided rape-as-penetration rationale of the National Crime Victimization Survey. I am willing to grant your position on rape in the military prima facie (see below).

Quote"According to a 2011 Newsweek report, women are more likely to be assaulted by a fellow soldier than killed in combat. In 2010, according to the Department of Defense's Sexual Assault Prevention and Response Office there were 3,158 military sexual assaults reported, however the Pentagon's statistics say that that represents just 13.5 percent of the estimated 19,000 assaults that actually occurred that year.[11] During that period, only 575 of the cases were processed. Of the cases processed, only 96 went to court-martial.[1] Another investigation found that only one in five females and one in 15 males in the United States Air Force would report having been sexually assaulted by service members.[2]"

No, I mean I seriously take your word for it. I'm not being cheeky.

QuoteTraditional gender roles are an insidious form of discrimination.

They most definitely are.

QuoteLet's do the reverse: Prove to me that we are not a sexist society. Prove to me that the Rape Culture isn't true.

You are making positive claims and I am asking you to substantiate them. I don't have to provide counterproofs to claims which imply statistics but provide none.

Quote from: Vreegdo not pretend that no one had made the connection.

I won't. I said:

Quote from: Salacious AngelI do deny that we live in a Male Centric, Male Dominated, Female Dis-empowering world. I am absolutely willing to discuss this, but no-one has actually raised this argument.

Had anyone argued, prior to that point, that "we live in a Male Centric, Male Dominated, Female Dis-empowering world"? Specifically?

Quote from: Vreegclaiming to be interested in and requiring, 'one unambiguous feminist philosophy', (italics yours) is like claiming one unambiguous existential philosophy

I'm asking for one of an indefinite number of feminist philosophies. Not "the one, irrefutable ur-philosophy". Any one will do. It can be your personal feminist stance. The point is that when you speak in general I cannot discern any specific ethos. It is, indeed, impossible to dissect in aggregate the multiplicity of feminism's dissenting perspectives. We must speak instead about a feminist philosophy.

We can still grant that feminism in absolute terms is not similarly irreducible.

QuoteYes, when you control stats like training, experience, et al, women still make less than men.

Kudos for the link, Vreeg. I've only given it a once-over (busy day! I've posted a whole helluva lot in the last 24 hours) but if its reporting is sound I might have to revise my opinion.

I'm bowing out of this conversation for a little while. I actually came here to work on SAGE and y'all done distracted me. (Not that I mind) Post away and I'll get back to you when I can.

ALSO: I'm going to finish my rebuttal of the Cracked article, which as limetom correctly pointed out, I haven't actually done. In the meantime, if any of you want me to address any specific points regarding my own position on the subject of a "Male Centric, Male Dominated, Female Dis-empowering world" (like, "how the hell can you deny that?!?!"), speak up and I'll discuss them as well.

Okay, guys, I'm pulling the plug on this thread.

There are several reasons. First, this thread was supposed to be for discussing the portrayal of women and video games based off of this article from Cracked. It has since devolved into absolutely pointless bickering over terminology. While there are certainly very meaningful things to be said about this topic, and, especially how it relates to tabletop games as well, considering our that these are the main part of our site. While we ordinarily have no problem with threads straying from their intended topic, I think it's quite obvious that with sensitive issues like the ones discussed here, constraining ourselves might be a good idea.

Second, it violates the Code of Conduct. We normally don't even bring it up that we have one, but we do. From the get go because of this alone I was considering banning it, but for a while the discussion actually seemed to be a discussion. Now it is quite clear that it is not a discussion.

Third, I was approached by several people that the thread made them uncomfortable, as it did not represent what we usually do here at the site. Though we're not in the business of censoring much here, especially in light of the first two points, all of this together has made me--as one of the site's admins--decided that it was time to pull the plug on this thread.

Keep in mind, though, this is not a complete prohibition on these kinds of discussions in the future. I think there certainly is room here (and it is important in general) to talk, civilly, about the portrayal of women (and any other group, for that matter) in tabletop games, as well as how it relates to people who are players and GMs of such games.

Feel free to PM me with any questions, comments, or concerns.