The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: sparkletwist

Quote from: Rose-of-VellumThe evidence actually demonstrates that martial types are more 'game-breaking'.

Wait... what? This thread isn't the place for it, so I don't want to derail things further, but I'd be quite curious to see this evidence, somewhere else.

Once time permits, I'll start a thread or send you a message.

Quote from: sparkletwistEnduring various environments seems like it wouldn't be hard to fit into a Warrior archetype; they can survive because they're just that tough, and all that. Giving them some sort of powerful leap as a consequence of their sheer physical prowess can help them keep pace with a Theurge's ability to float around. Highlighting the resourcefulness that a Warrior would have to develop in order to survive can also help with giving them more general utility.

Thanks for the suggestions. Although I perceive resourcefulness as a core attribute of rogues rather than warriors, I agree that endurance and movement-related skills fit the warrior archetype. Currently, I see both facets as already included in the warrior's abilities, but here are some ways I might clarify or enhance such:

1. The warrior archetype currently grants expertise in any one physical skill (e.g., jumping, running, climbing, etc.) at 1st level. I could change it so they gain another skill of their choice at 3rd and 6th. That way, rogues get a skill (physical or otherwise) every tier, warriors get a physical skill at level 1,3,6, and theurges get no skills from their archetype.

2. As for endurance, warriors have typically lower point-cost abilities, gain greater proficiencies in armor and abilities that reduce armor penalties, and gain access to Defense Expertise and Mastery at 2nd and 5th tier. I hesitate giving them blanket expertise against environmental hazards, because I feel that treads upon territory better and already covered by foci, racial traits. However, I do find merit in giving them maneuvers that allow them to temporarily ignore physical damage/debilitating conditions. For example, here are new 2nd tier and 4th tier abilities:

Endurance (2 Might points): You can temporarily ignore the penalties of being impaired or dazed. Each use of this maneuver allows you to ignore said penalties for one action. Enabler.

Greater Endurance (3 Might points): You can temporarily ignore the penalties of being blinded, dazed, debilitated, impaired, or paralyzed. Each use of this maneuver allows you to ignore said penalties for one action. If you select this combat maneuver and you already have the Endurance maneuver, you may replace it with a different second-tier maneuver. Enabler.

What do you (and others) think of said additions?

Quote from: sparkletwistIn this case, by "impressive," I meant specifically how the set of "things I can do" is expanding for the character. If the Warrior instead got the ability to leap and climb, spy on people from a distance, MacGyver up some gadgets, and do all kinds of other broadly useful tasks, while while the Theurge just got more powerful blasts that did more damage, my objection would be reversed-- regardless of who has "magic."

Fair enough. The warrior archetype provides versatility, endurance, and enhancement in combat tasks, but no significant diversification of skills outside of combat (although warrior characters can use disposition, foci, race, XP, and items to accomplish such).

Quote from: sparkletwistI think it's cool that not only do you have a pretty developed system, it ties into someone else's setting-- it's the sort of mentality that we like to see around here. :D

Glad to hear.

This looks like a lot of fun.  Though I am noticing it seems like there is virtually no challenge at tier 1.  I mean, if you are attacking DC 1 creatures, then you will succeed 5 out of 6 times (or all of the time; do ties go to PCs?) even without grit, benefactions, and skill.  Unless they can take a hefty amount of damage, that's going to be over pretty quick.

Of course, since you are working with a d6, and DCs go up to 10, high tier play will DEPEND on grit, benefactions, and other bonuses to make success even remotely possible, so perhaps it's just a matter of things getting significantly harder later on.  Although this is assuming that first tier characters aren't going up against tier 7 challenges.  This may not be a correct assumption, but it appears that characters on the whole get more abilities as they increase in tier, not necessarily dramatically BETTER abilities.  Though perhaps I am not interpreting correctly.

Quote from: Rose-of-VellumOnce time permits, I'll start a thread or send you a message.

Excellent. I'd prefer a thread, personally, because it's easier to see, and I think it might be of general interest.

Quote from: Rose-of-VellumThe warrior archetype currently grants expertise in any one physical skill (e.g., jumping, running, climbing, etc.) at 1st level. I could change it so they gain another skill of their choice at 3rd and 6th. That way, rogues get a skill (physical or otherwise) every tier, warriors get a physical skill at level 1,3,6, and theurges get no skills from their archetype.

This would be more beneficial if it was clearer what skills could actually do. It says right in the description that a Theurge's power allows levitation and a certain degree of mobility. On the other hand, these physical skills could allow anything from a very limited subset of that to something much more versatile, depending on how much latitude the player and GM took in interpreting the extremely vague skill.

Quote from: Rose-of-Vellum(although warrior characters can use disposition, foci, race, XP, and items to accomplish such)

I am talking specifically about a deficit I see in the Warrior archetype, so the fixes would have to be within the archetype as well: if X < Y then X+1 < Y+1, so general improvements that anyone can have don't help nearly as much. (Unless they synergize very well with the Warrior's abilities and the Warrior only, but then I think maybe these should just be Warrior abilities to call attention to this fact...)

Quote from: Seraphine_HarmoniumThis looks like a lot of fun.

Thanks! Fun, both for the players and GM, is definitely a design goal.

QuoteThough I am noticing it seems like there is virtually no challenge at tier 1.  I mean, if you are attacking DC 1 creatures, then you will succeed 5 out of 6 times (or all of the time; do ties go to PCs?) even without grit, benefactions, and skill.  Unless they can take a hefty amount of damage, that's going to be over pretty quick.

I'm assuming by tier you mean level. Tiers are a PC taxon; levels describe an NPC/enemy/task.  
Assuming that's what you mean, then yes, a single level 1 foe in neutral conditions isn't much of a threat to a hale tier 1 PC, much less a group of tier 1 PCs. This is intentional. Unlike most 'zero to hero' systems, tier 1 PCs are meant to already have preternatural skills, talents, and abilities. Using the Blood & Bewitchment game as an example, Tarim wasn't a novice witch, just barely learning his first cantrip, nor was Kaius just learning how to swing a sword. Both were accomplished, capable beings who could command a certain level of fear and respect -even if much bigger sharks swam in their waters.

To extend that example, consider a level 1 monster, like a piranha rat. A single piranha rat isn't much of a threat to a first tier PC. As you said, he or she only has a 1 out of 6 chance of missing an attack or failing to dodge an attack from the piranha rat. However, that's still about an 17% chance of failure -and since natural 1s cause other problems, the risk isn't something you blithely ignore. Still, in most cases, the PC is going to dodge and cut down the rat with nigh impunity. As they well should.

However, imagine that same level 1 piranha rat, but this time, the PCs are down in the Catacombs. A sludge of offal runs through the narrow, shallow-ceiled tunnel -the only light coming from a sputtering half-cracked glow-globe. Due to these suboptimal conditions, the PC (but not rat) faces several hindrances. The sludge imposes a hindrance on movement, dodging, and attacking, as does the tight space. The poor light may also increase the DC of most tasks. All of the sudden, the DC to hit the same rat goes from 1 to 3-4. And that's just one piranha rat. And rarely is it just one rat. A half-dozen gleaming, ravenous eyes appear, and now, even a whole group of PCs might think twice about their odds. They most likely could defeat them, but the risk is much greater, and the probability and incentive for using Grit and spending points from Pools has increased. Even then, though, one solid sword cut, rifle shot, or hit with a maul will kill a piranha rat -as the dark, sludge, and tight space doesn't make a rat hardier or more resistant to injury. So, combat can be dangerous and fast.  

QuoteOf course, since you are working with a d6, and DCs go up to 10, high tier play will DEPEND on grit, benefactions, and other bonuses to make success even remotely possible

Correct, or at least, level 7+ encounters/foes will generally depend upon Grit, benefactions, etc. Higher tier PCs don't automatically have to solely battle higher level foes.  

Quote from: sparkletwistExcellent. I'd prefer a thread, personally, because it's easier to see, and I think it might be of general interest.

Sure thing, I'll start a thread once time permits (though time might not permit for a while).  

Quote from: sparkletwistThis would be more beneficial if it was clearer what skills could actually do. It says right in the description that a Theurge's power allows levitation and a certain degree of mobility. On the other hand, these physical skills could allow anything from a very limited subset of that to something much more versatile, depending on how much latitude the player and GM took in interpreting the extremely vague skill.

At least for movement-related tasks, some additional explanation does already exist. Beyond wanting additional clarification on what tasks might involve swimming, running, jumping, riding, climbing, of another physical skill, do you agree that granting an additional physical skill at tier 3 & 6 increase the power and versatility of the warrior archetype?  Would you say such is a change in the right direction, if not degree?

Quote from: "sparkletwist"

Quote from: Rose-of-Vellum(although warrior characters can use disposition, foci, race, XP, and items to accomplish such)

I am talking specifically about a deficit I see in the Warrior archetype, so the fixes would have to be within the archetype as well: if X < Y then X+1 < Y+1, so general improvements that anyone can have don't help nearly as much.

I've been interpreting your complaint as centering around your perception that the rules make warrior characters less versatile/enjoyable/powerful than theurge characters. In the end, that should be what matters –whether characters with certain archetypes are imbalanced, rather than if archetypes by themselves are imbalanced (though pinpointing the latter as cause of the former is efficacious). That said, skill caps at mastery, so the above math doesn't perfectly apply.  Especially since warriors are better at a number of important tasks than theurges (i.e., endurance, attack, damage, armor). Now, I recognize that the last three are almost exclusively related to combat, so in an attempt to further emphasize how the warrior archetype includes endurance (and how that trait can apply to both combat and non-combat encounters), I added two new warrior combat maneuvers. What do you (or others) think of them? Do you agree that they remain true to the warrior archetype and diversify the archetype's abilities?  Or do you disagree with both the direction and degree of said change(s)?

Something else to think about might be what social roles "warriors" might play.  Are they soldiers?  If so they might be good at maintaining weapons, taking care of animals (a knight has to take care of his horse, and probably has a falcon and a hunting hound or 5), commanding troops, maybe social skills related to recruitment, or any other skills that would be useful for soldiers.

Are they the equivalent of police?  Are they skilled at interrogation of suspects?  Searching for clues?

Perhaps they are a gladiator skilled at showmanship & performance.

I don't know enough about Cadaverous Earth to say if this is true or not, but if there is a ruling class of warriors (like in Medieval Europe) then Diplomacy is an obvious choice, as would knowledge of powerful families, customs, and etiquette.   

It's possible that few or none of these apply, but the point remains that there may be any number of other things warriors could be skilled in that would make them useful outside of combat.

Quote from: Rose-of-VellumAt least for movement-related tasks, some additional explanation does already exist. Beyond wanting additional clarification on what tasks might involve swimming, running, jumping, riding, climbing, of another physical skill, do you agree that granting an additional physical skill at tier 3 & 6 increase the power and versatility of the warrior archetype?  Would you say such is a change in the right direction, if not degree?

Welll, all the explanation I found was one line saying that a character "might have to roll" when moving a long distance, and it says nothing about the DC, what skills can be used, or whatever. If there is more, please point it out to me. Anyway, though, as long as skills are so loosely defined, the amount of power that is gained by "having more skills" is sort of nebulous, so I can't really say anything about whether I think it's worthwhile or not, although my general feeling is that something like "Balancing" or "Climbing" might be generally interpreted too narrowly to have much of an impact.

Quote from: Rose-of-VellumI added two new warrior combat maneuvers. What do you (or others) think of them? Do you agree that they remain true to the warrior archetype and diversify the archetype's abilities?  Or do you disagree with both the direction and degree of said change(s)?

It costs two points to activate Endurance in order to negate dazing, which increases DC by one. Anybody can spend two points to use Grit to reduce a DC, so that's not exactly too impressive. In the case of being impaired, it's not worth using to spend one grit, and it's a wash if you spend two, because then you're spending two points to save two. I guess there might be some cases where you'd have both of those bad conditions stacked on you, or have Edge so you're glad you could spend Might instead of some other pool to reduce a penalty-- but since you only get one maneuver per level, this one doesn't seem very worthwhile. If you take Greater Endurance, with its higher cost, it becomes an even worse deal for being paralyzed or impaired, though being able to ignore being debilitated is nice. I don't know if being able to ignore being blinded or paralyzed is nice or not because there don't seem to be actual mechanics for those conditions. So, in my opinion neither of these new maneuvers are very good, though the idea behind them is probably decent.

SH,

What you describe perfectly illustrates the function and diversity of character foci.

Sparkletwist,

You're right about the lack of movement-related mechanics. I had thought I posted said material, but it seems I had not. I'll rectify that asap.

As for the 2 maneuvers:

There are a number of advantages of using Endure versus Grit. The most important one, however, is that it allows you to use Might points rather than Grit -thus, you could use Grit to further reduce the DC, increase damage, etc. This is important because each PC has a certain Grit level, a cap of Grit they can spend on any one action. Endure frees up this Grit. Once a warrior's Might Edge reaches 2, a PC can essentially negate the penalties from any effect that makes him or her dazed or impaired. Lastly, if you are trying to attempt a task that requires spending points from Agility or Intellect (e.g., a defense roll), you don't have to spend additional points from that same Pool to reduce the penalties for being dazed or impaired, but can instead spend points from your Might Pool (which likely has more points to spend and a higher Edge). So there are a number of advantages that the maneuver offers.

Greater Endure largely offers the same benefits, but opens up even more opportunities, namely the ability to attempt an action despite being stunned, paralyzed -two conditions that normally prohibit taking actions (technically the former allows a defense roll). Depending on one's race, blindness can increase DCs upwards of 4 steps. So ignoring blindness for one round is a big deal. Being debilitated  normally reduces you to only immediate distance movements -so ignoring that to strike, run, use some item, etc., is a big boon.  

As for being able to only pick one maneuver per tier (technically 2 at first tier), remember that you can also spend XP to learn new maneuvers.  

Hopefully that clarifies the utility of those maneuvers.

Some movement related info, including the outline of a physical skill.

Different environments affect movement in different ways.

Rough Terrain: A surface that's considered rough terrain is covered in loose stones or other material, uneven or with unsure footing, unsteady, or a surface that requires movement across a narrow space, such as a cramped corridor or a slender ledge. Stairs are also considered rough terrain. Rough terrain does not slow normal movement on a round-by-round basis, but it increases the difficulty of a move roll by one step. Rough terrain cuts long-term movement rates in half.

Difficult Terrain: Difficult terrain is an area filled with challenging obstacles—water up to waist height, a very steep slope, an especially narrow ledge, slippery ice, a foot or more of snow, a space so small that one must crawl through it, and so on. Difficult terrain is just like rough terrain, but it also halves movement on a round-by-round basis. This means that a short move is about 25 feet, and a long move is about 50 feet. Difficult terrain reduces long-term movement to a third of its normal rate.

Water: Deep water, in which a character is mostly or entirely submerged, is just like rough terrain except that it also quarters movement. This means that a short move is about 12 feet, and a long move is about 25 feet. Characters with expertise in swimming only halve their movement while in deep water. Characters with mastery in swimming as well as certain aquatic and amphibious creatures are not hindered in water and can move at their normal speed.

CLIMBING
When a character climbs, the GM sets a difficulty based on the surface being climbed. If the character succeeds at the roll, she uses the movement rules as though she were moving normally, although climbing is like moving through difficult terrain: it raises the difficulty of a move roll by one step and halves movement. Unusual circumstances, such as climbing while under fire -or on fire- pose additional step penalties. Having expertise in climbing reduces the difficulty of this task by one step, while mastery reduces the difficulty by two steps.

TABLE 9: CLIMBING DIFFICULTIES



   
   
   
   
   
   
   
   

DC	SURFACE
2	Surface with lots of handholds
3	Stone wall or similar surface (a few handholds)
4	Crumbling or slippery surface
5	Smooth stone wall or similar surface
6	Metal wall or similar surface
8	Smooth, horizontal surface (climber is upside-down)
10	Glass wall or similar surface

Quote from: Rose-of-VellumThere are a number of advantages of using Endure versus Grit.

Yes, I did see those possible advantages, but, in the case of regular Endure, they seemed (and still seem) to be rather corner-case-ish to me and as such didn't seem worth it; then again, I haven't actually played the game, so I don't know for sure. I will say that Greater Endure seems like it could be beneficial after finding out the actual mechanics for the effects it stops. Even so, the way that it replaces regular Endure so the cost to resist dazing and impairment goes up by 1 strikes me as needlessly annoying.

Quote from: Rose-of-VellumAs for being able to only pick one maneuver per tier (technically 2 at first tier), remember that you can also spend XP to learn new maneuvers.

Yes, but given that it costs the same as moving forward in the tier but, unlike those other options doesn't actually move you any closer to advancing a tier, it doesn't seem like the most worthwhile option. Especially for Warrior manuevers.

So much to respond to!  I'll address aspects of the system and discussion so far in a number of posts to come, but for now I'll say that I'm very flattered to have a system for one of my settings custom-built.

To address Seraphine's questions, since I think I can answer them:

Quote from: Serpahine HarmoniumSomething else to think about might be what social roles "warriors" might play.  Are they soldiers?  If so they might be good at maintaining weapons, taking care of animals (a knight has to take care of his horse, and probably has a falcon and a hunting hound or 5), commanding troops, maybe social skills related to recruitment, or any other skills that would be useful for soldiers.

Are they the equivalent of police?  Are they skilled at interrogation of suspects?  Searching for clues?

Perhaps they are a gladiator skilled at showmanship & performance.

I don't know enough about Cadaverous Earth to say if this is true or not, but if there is a ruling class of warriors (like in Medieval Europe) then Diplomacy is an obvious choice, as would knowledge of powerful families, customs, and etiquette.

While there are some soldiers in the setting, I would say that most warrior archetypes in the Cadaverous Earth are not actually of a military mindset: there are certainly generals, warlords, and mercenary captains, but the majority of "warriors" in the setting are more like bandits, thugs, corsairs, and wandering blades/guns-for-hire, as well as pit-fighters, bodyguards, and barbarian reavers.

There are few formal police.  The major cities sometimes have militias or city watches but such forces tend to be relatively small and limited in scope.  Major churches sometimes host warrior chapters, like the Red Templars of Striga or the Inquisitors of Marainein.

Apart from barbaric chieftains, the captains of corsair clans, and powerful warlords, warriors don't actually tend to occupy leadership roles - most of those are filled by those who wield economic, sorcerous, or theocratic might, from the Magisters of Skein to the Lords and Ladies Revenant to the Merchant Princes of Crepuscle.  There are some significant exceptions, but by and large the setting is not especially focused on martial or military culture.

In terms of skills warriors might have apart from fighting and athletic prowess, I'd say that survival skills, scavenging, "street-smarts," and maintaining weapons and armour would be the most common.

Sparkletwist,

Regarding Endure, the biggest advantage is how it allows you to reserve your Grit to modify your action in other ways -either to further decrease the DC, add damage, etc. This is a staple benefit and tactic that has broadband utility. The other benefits are more situationally sensitive, depending on one's build and circumstances. But they aren't insignificant. At the same time, the combat maneuver isn't something that every single warrior will choose -a svelte, sword-cane-swinging duellist, for instance, might concentrate on Agility based maneuvers.

Regarding Greater Endure, it does not automatically replace Endure. One could choose to keep both, precisely to use the lower point cost of Endure to ignore the penalties of being dazed or impaired. There is choice there.

That said, I hope those abilities help diversify combat maneuvers and reinforce the warrior archetype's physical resilience.  

Quote from: sparkletwist

Quote from: Rose-of-VellumAs for being able to only pick one maneuver per tier (technically 2 at first tier), remember that you can also spend XP to learn new maneuvers.

Yes, but given that it costs the same as moving forward in the tier but, unlike those other options doesn't actually move you any closer to advancing a tier, it doesn't seem like the most worthwhile option. Especially for Warrior manuevers.

I think you may have misread the XP rules (or I'm misunderstanding what you're saying). Spending XP to gain a new esotery, combat maneuver, or trick costs 4 XP, and counts towards tier advancement (in place of spending XP to gain a new skill). See last paragraph under the Character Tiers & Benefits section).

***

Steerpike,

Thanks for posting! I look forward to your further feedback.

I definitely tried to make each archetype broad enough that it could apply to each of the myriad variations that exist in the setting. The foci serve to further individuate and differentiate the broad archetypes, so a Slaughterlands bandit, Pulsetown pit-fighter, Skein syndicate-thug, etc., might all share the same archetype (but not necessarily same maneuvers, skills, weapon specialization), but would have different foci (I should note that foci are not archetype-specific).

Quote from: SteerpikeIn terms of skills warriors might have apart from fighting and athletic prowess, I'd say that survival skills, scavenging, "street-smarts," and maintaining weapons and armour would be the most common.

Largely, I see the degree and kind of survival skills, scavenging, and street-smarts being determined by foci (e.g., a Slouching Devil bandit will have greater wilderness survival skills and less street-smarts than a Skein syndicate-thug).

That said, would you mind expounding a bit on what you mean by weapon and armor maintenance?  I'm not sure if you mean the proper use and care of them (which I would posit is represented by their progressing weapon and armor proficiencies), or the ability to repair or create them?  If the latter, I see that being more specialized and represented by skill acquisition/selection and/or foci. For example, Conan definitely knew how to use, oil, sharpen, etc., his weapons, but I don't know if he and other warriors generally possessed the knowledge and training to forge and repair swords, shields, armor, etc. Certain warrior characters definitely would, but it would due to their skill selection, disposition, focus, and/or XP expenditure.

By maintaining them I basically just mean keep them in good nick, not necessarily making new ones from scratch.  It strikes me that if you're spending weeks out in the wilderness fighting off mutant cockroach swarms, polycephalous savages, berzerk machines etc you probably know how to repair your weapons if they break.

Reading through the Races right now!  Looks great so far, though I spotted a couple of small typos in the Cestoid entry (it calls Cestoids Anthropophagi at one point and is titled "Cetiod").  I really like the idea of Character Foci.  As TMG points out Prestige Classes were a lot of fun in Blood & Bewitchment so it's nice to see that sort of thing reflected here!

Quote from: SteerpikeBy maintaining them I basically just mean keep them in good nick, not necessarily making new ones from scratch.  It strikes me that if you're spending weeks out in the wilderness fighting off mutant cockroach swarms, polycephalous savages, berzerk machines etc you probably know how to repair your weapons if they break.

Ok, what if I added a provision to weapon & armor proficiencies, such that proficiency in an armor or weapon type also grants expertise in appraising and repairing said weapon/armor?

Quote from: SteerpikeReading through the Races right now!  Looks great so far, though I spotted a couple of small typos in the Cestoid entry (it calls Cestoids Anthropophagi at one point and is titled "Cestiod").

Glad you like what you've read so far (although all the truly good stuff comes courtesy of your flavor blurbs!) I fixed the two typos -please let me know if you spot any others, or lines that are confusing.

On question related to races though -do jatayi have arms independent of their wings or do they harm fingers sprouting from their wing-joint?  I thought the latter made them more monstrous in appearance (and easier to balance mechanically), but I could not definitively tell from the description.

Quote from: SteerpikeI really like the idea of Character Foci.  As TMG points out Prestige Classes were a lot of fun in Blood & Bewitchment so it's nice to see that sort of thing reflected here!

Thanks! Foci are a major part of Numenara's rules; however, my intent for Penumbra is to make foci more specifically tied in flavor and mechanics to CE's setting.  

Quote from: Rose-of-VellumOk, what if I added a provision to weapon & armor proficiencies, such that proficiency in an armor or weapon type also grants expertise in appraising and repairing said weapon/armor?

Makes sense to me.

Quote from: Rose-of-VellumI thought the latter made them more monstrous in appearance (and easier to balance mechanically), but I could not definitively tell from the description.

I think that Jatayi have arms and Sirae do not, if I remember correctly (I think there were some times when Wispy fired a crossbow while on the wing).  But there could be different clans/subraces that have both configurations.