The Campaign Builder's Guild

Quote from: SteerpikeAllowing any kind of "automatic" or unlimited retraining isn't a great idea, in my opinion, because it lets characters completely alter themselves according to the circumstances they find themselves in: as you say, powergaming shenanigans.

I never said it should be automatic or unlimited. You use my term of powergaming shenanigans but in that section I specifically said "the kind of stuff that the DM would, in an ad hoc system, just promptly refuse-- and most players wouldn't even ask for." So, in other words, I agree with you... because I wasn't even talking about that to begin with.

I am advocating simple and easy to use retraining mechanics that don't carry onerous costs and annoying requirements. The fact is, at any point someone who is just sick of their character but finds the retraining mechanics too obnoxious can just opt to retire their character and make a new one, "for free." Only now that other character's entire story and contribution to the narrative has been lost, and it's up to the DM and group to try to integrate the new character, and the whole thing just flows less smoothly. Thus, it is probably smart for the sake of a better game experience to make retraining something that is generally available and not particularly bothersome to do.

Quote from: SteerpikeI'm actually OK with the players, say, deciding that they need to become very stealthy for a stealth mission and so spending valuable time and money training in stealth. I wouldn't call that shenanigans or a "bad' use of retraining - I'd call that smart in-game logic.

What I meant was the player just spontaneously reallocating all their skill points to stealth with no in-character reason whatsoever. This makes more sense, and, as I mentioned, I'm ok with some costs when they make sense, too, and the whole "training montage" seems like it would actually add to the game.

What I'm not in favor of is assigning arbitrary costs to things as a tax to playing the character concept you actually want to play because "simulationism." Which brings me to...

Quote from: SteerpikePathfinder isn't exactly a paragon of simulationism, but I like that the retraining rules provide an in-game explanation and mechanic that at least "feels" somewhat realistic in a way that ad hoc retcons do not.

The Pathfinder retraining rules are basically nonsense.

Let's use the example of skill training in stealth. Ricky the level 7 Rogue and Wendy the level 5 Wizard both decide to go train. Because the mechanics are built around level, Ricky pays 350 gp for his training while Wendy only pays 250. They both train for 5 days. At the end of the training, you get to move 1+Int Modifier skill ranks, so Ricky with his Int 12 gets to move 2 skill ranks to Stealth, while Wendy with her Int 18 gets to move 5 ranks and max herself out for her level. So, despite Ricky being higher level, paying more, being a skill monkey with 4x the ranks per level, and having stealth as a class skill... gets far less benefit out of the training.

Other highlights from crazy town are that you can retrain feats to other feats that you couldn't actually have taken at the level that you supposedly have them at, it often costs the same amount of time and gold to retrain an entire class level as it does to retrain one feat, and hit point training gives you +1 hp so the tougher you are the less relative benefit you actually get despite still paying more at higher level.

I totally understand that you don't want people to be able to just rewrite their entire character sheet in between sessions, and I was not and am not advocating that at all. What I am advocating is a more freeform approach rather than rules that make no sense and generally just make people pay for making small revisions to their character sheet, particularly in a system as imbalanced as Pathfinder.

Hmm, you mount a pretty good critique of the rules themselves! As usual your mechanical insights are impeccable.

For now, nevermind about retraining rules; you've convinced me not to use them. There really shouldn't be any imminent need to retrain anyway, since everyone will have a chance to build/rebuild their characters as they please, and I'm not planning on making this a weekly game or something. We can handle retraining issues if/when they come up.

Thanks for clarifying your position. At some point I may look into some other house-rules for retraining that involve costs and time but don't produce the wonky results you've identified.

So, do we have any idea yet when the new Fimbulvinter sessions will be? My work schedule is a bit all over the place at the moment, but in january I will be free (read: unemployed) again...

I'll also be free in January, and anything before December 18th is a no-go for me. The 17th is my last final exam. I'm so mired in final exam crunch time that I haven't even thought of a character yet.

Quote from: SteerpikeAt some point I may look into some other house-rules for retraining that involve costs and time but don't produce the wonky results you've identified.

That works! If you need help with crunchy stuff, let me know. :)

Quote from: SteerpikeI should perhaps point out that this is a game where magical items will almost never be for sale.

What if we're the ones selling them?

I'm not talking about opening up "Magic Items R Us" or anything, but, I was thinking a bit about Dagny's general story and what she'd be up to, and she'd certainly not go back to being a scullery maid and serving wench now that she'd recovered her abilities. There's just too much more useful that she could be doing! Granted, people might be little wary of someone throwing around flashy magic, but then again, there is magic in the setting and it does do useful things, so it seems like it'd be a net plus for everyone to have someone who could make things cleaner and warmer and brighter. It might also let her raise her social standing in town a bit, which would be nice.

Maybe focusing too much on the "downtime economy" is not the point of a casual game like one, but, on the other hand, the characters don't just poof into thin air when they're not adventuring, so thinking about it a little doesn't do any harm, I'd think...

Quote from: KindlingSo, do we have any idea yet when the new Fimbulvinter sessions will be?

Perhaps a doodle is in order!

From December 12th to January 10th, I will be free most days/times save for Tuesdays, Wednesdays, & Sundays.

Here's a Doodle! Just for December to begin with.

These represent my ideal times. If it looks like people just cannot make any of those times, I can come up with more if necessary. Even a late-night or early morning one might be possible for me. My wife will probably call me a huge geek but then again she's currently playing a 10th level Catfolk Rogue in my Planescape game and binge-watching Agents of S.H.I.E.L.D. so I think she'll understand.

Note that I'm in the Pacific Time Zone. You can find a handy converter here. All times in the Doodle are 24 hour. Let me know if there's any confusion.

Quote from: sparkletwistWhat if we're the ones selling them?

Selling magic items is much more viable than buying them - although many people will not have sufficient coin to purchase expensive ones. More common might be trading magical services for other services: for example, buying healing at a shrine might be possible, and there are seeresses who travel around providing divinations and other services for a fee. If you find those with serious coin like Jarls, warlords, Dvergar, chieftains, wealthy priests, etc, there'd be opportunities to sell more expensive items. Dvergar are about the only ones who might actually sell magical items beyond perhaps the odd potion at a healer or minor charm from a peddlar. Spells and items that relate to food, warmth, and protection are going to be particularly valuable, since those things are effectively the most scarce and desirable commodities now, at a major premium in a world where farming is increasingly impossible and it seems to only be getting colder and more dangerous with each passing day.

There's widespread distrust of magic, but during Fimbulvinter many are deserting the old ways, and in some places it'll be more-or-less accepted, especially in the Görnlands. Mostly, people just fear magic because the vast majority of supernatural things are both deadly and malignant, and people know that it can be used to deceive people. Divine magic is a bit more accepted than arcane magic, although the distinction is blurrier than in some settings. Female magic-users are considerably more accepted than male ones since using magic is "ergi" - effeminate. I want there to be a feel in general that magic is becoming more common as Ragnarok approaches, though, and male magic-users won't be hunted down and burned or anything (well, unless they use their magic in malevolent ways or run afoul of a particularly zealous Fatherman...), just seen as a rather "unmanly," by those who still hold to the old traditions.

In general it will be easy to gloss over many economic aspects - just go to the market in whatever settlement you're in and I'll let people sell what they want to sell, including minor magic items like potions or scrolls. Anything worth significant amounts of gold, though (500gp+) might require a bit more searching - at least a Diplomacy check to Gather Information to find a suitable buyer. But since most magic items are rare and generally useful enough to be kept rather than sold, I don't think it'll be too big a deal.

Quote from: SteerpikeLet me know if there's any confusion.

I am slightly confused, because the times given are not 24 hour even though you said they would be. Doodle also can optionally attempt to convert it for your local time zone, and I'm not sure if it's doing that for me or not-- is the first time slot on December 10 9am-12pm PST?

Quote from: SteerpikeIn general it will be easy to gloss over many economic aspects - just go to the market in whatever settlement you're in and I'll let people sell what they want to sell, including minor magic items like potions or scrolls. Anything worth significant amounts of gold, though (500gp+) might require a bit more searching - at least a Diplomacy check to Gather Information to find a suitable buyer. But since most magic items are rare and generally useful enough to be kept rather than sold, I don't think it'll be too big a deal.

The main reason Dagny might interact more with this aspect of the economy is that she has the ability to make scrolls, too, so selling 1st level scrolls at a 12.5 gp (or so) profit, or just casting the spells directly for a similar margin, seems like it'd be a good way for her to make a living nowadays, as long as someone can afford that. She has endure elements and mage armor, which are probably pretty helpful, and burning hands could be leveraged in a pinch for more utilitarian tasks. And during Fimbulvinter she's likely to get a good bit of mileage out of snow shape, too. The one main thing she can't help with is food, but she's always going to be on the lookout-- rather than money, she'll be happy to trade magical favors to try to research/acquire some sort of arcane spell capable of conjuring edibles, or any other interesting spells for that matter.

As far as I can see, they're showing as 24 hour: I'm not sure why they're not for you. So, for December 10th, the first possible time-slot is indeed 9am-12am PST, followed by 12-15:00 (noon to 3pm), 15:00-18:00 (3-6pm) and 20:00-23:00 (8:00-11:00pm). I caught one error where I'd put "1:00" instead of "13:00" but otherwise they seemed fine. Are those displaying like that for you? If not there's something weird going on...

Dagny could potentially sell some scrolls if she can find an arcane spellcaster to trade with, but most people cannot use scrolls since they're not casters. However, what Dagny absolutely could do is go around using her scrolls to provide small magical services, like using burning hands to start a fire or cook some meat, or endure elements to help warm up some of the people shivering in the streets of Wulfheim. I don't mind such transactions being handled somewhat abstractly i.e. we don't need to roleplay every single service.

Quote from: SteerpikeAs far as I can see, they're showing as 24 hour: I'm not sure why they're not for you.

I don't know either... I'm not seeing any 24 hour times. But as long as I can figure out what time is meant (and I can) then it doesn't really matter, I guess. :)

Quote from: SteerpikeDagny could potentially sell some scrolls if she can find an arcane spellcaster to trade with, but most people cannot use scrolls since they're not casters. However, what Dagny absolutely could do is go around using her scrolls to provide small magical services, like using burning hands to start a fire or cook some meat, or endure elements to help warm up some of the people shivering in the streets of Wulfheim. I don't mind such transactions being handled somewhat abstractly i.e. we don't need to roleplay every single service.

Before, you said that selling the scrolls could be more or less automatic, so I was going off that, but yes, I figure it would be easier to just cast a spell for the person directly-- which wouldn't even need scrolls, she can just do that with her spell slots on days when she's not having to use them all for something else like adventuring.

I assume before the game starts I can give Dagny a few extra spells "bought" from her base wealth using the normal rules for copying spells, under the assumption that she managed to trade arcane favors with a wandering sorceress or the like?

That so weird! So how does it display for you? I could always just PM you the times.

(btw, is anyone else experiencing this?)

Quote from: sparkletwistBefore, you said that selling the scrolls could be more or less automatic, so I was going off that, but yes, I figure it would be easier to just cast a spell for the person directly-- which wouldn't even need scrolls, she can just do that with her spell slots on days when she's not having to use them all for something else like adventuring.

Yeah, I hadn't thought about the actual mechanics of scroll casting enough. I was looking into details of how your Dvergar artefact would work and realized that yeah, scrolls themselves probably wouldn't be too useful to most people in a place like Wulfheim (as opposed to, say, potions). But you could definitely sell your magical services to a certain extent, and/or barter them for things like room, supplies, etc. Not everyone in the settlement is completely penniless. I don't think, say, that Dagny could set up any kind of sustainable business selling spells to the locals, but she could definitely supplement an adventuring income.

I think I'm too used to Planescape, where you have magic shops every 10 ft. and everyone knows about 30 magic-users on a first name basis...

Quote from: sparkletwistI assume before the game starts I can give Dagny a few extra spells "bought" from her base wealth using the normal rules for copying spells, under the assumption that she managed to trade arcane favors with a wandering sorceress or the like?

That seems reasonable - how many spells are you thinking?

Quote from: SteerpikeSo how does it display for you? I could always just PM you the times.

It seems like it's fine, if working strangely.
The times show up like "9:00 AM -12:00 PM", "12:00 PM -3:00 PM" and so on. Which, as long as I know those are PST, I can convert to CST and fill out the Doodle correctly.
Actually, there's one oddball time slot on Monday the 22nd that shows up as "10:00 - 13:00," which is the one you fixed, I guess?

Quote from: SteerpikeBut you could definitely sell your magical services to a certain extent, and/or barter them for things like room, supplies, etc.

Ok, good. Bartering them would be more interesting anyway-- it might be fun to get some oddball flavorful items I'd never actually bother to dig through the book and spend money on.

Quote from: SteerpikeThat seems reasonable - how many spells are you thinking?

However many I can! The assumption of Pathfinder, I think, is that Wizards are going around copying every spell into their spellbook they can get their hands on. So, if you want to set an upper limit, go ahead, otherwise... whatever I can buy with the 400 or so gp I have left after buying other stuff. :grin:

Another question. What do you think about False Focus being able to duplicate optional alchemical material components? I'm thinking of taking this feat for Dagny, but it's really only worth a feat if it can-- it adds a +1 to a bunch of random useful spells. Otherwise, it's almost as pointless as Eschew Materials. My own searches have revealed that opinions on whether it works that way are pretty divided, though, and Paizo hasn't issued any FAQ.

Huh, I hadn't seen that feat before.  I like the power component stuff.  Getting all of it for free for a price of a feat, however, seems excessive - Silver by itself is nearly worth as much as the Spell Focus (Illusion) feat (Silver adds +1 DC to Illusion spell will saves), and that's only one of a few dozen such power components.  If False Focus gives you all those component effects for free it's hard to imagine any wizard not taking False Focus.  When interpreted that way, it owns pretty hard.

It also seems like it sort of defeats the purpose of having alchemical power components in the first place ("let's introduce this optional subsystem so we can take a feat to ignore it entirely!").

Quote from: PolycarpSilver by itself is nearly worth as much as the Spell Focus (Illusion) feat (Silver adds +1 DC to Illusion spell will saves)

Not really. It adds +1 DC to Illusion will saves to disbelieve only. That means it helps your silent images but it does absolutely nothing for your color sprays or your haunting mists or whatever.

Quote from: PolycarpIt also seems like it sort of defeats the purpose of having alchemical power components in the first place ("let's introduce this optional subsystem so we can take a feat to ignore it entirely!").

I suspect that the developers of the feat and the developers of the alchemical power system weren't aware of the other's work. However, it's my opinion that all this (probably unintentional) interaction does is take a feat that would be garbage and turn it into something that is actually worth a feat.

Well at least the scheduler kinda works. Not sure why it's displaying so oddly.

I don't think False Focus was written with alchemical material components in mind or vice versa. I agree it's not a great feat, but it feels rather... I don't know, "rules-lawyery" to extend it to alchemical components. It doesn't seem to jibe with either the tone of alchemical components or divine symbols (frankly, I think I just don't like this feat... spell components are awesome, in my opinion, and part of the weird charm of D&D spells). In the asbence of an official ruling on Paizo's part I think I tend towards conservatism, so I think I'll rule for our purposes that it doesn't extend to alchemical components.

As for buying new spells, the cost for writing in new spells is very low if you're doing it spellbook-to-spellbook. According to the rules (if I'm reading them correctly), a 1st level spell would only cost 15 gp to copy from one spellbook to another (5gp for the privilege of borrowing the spell and 10 to write it). It'd actually be even cheaper for you if you traded spells withe the other Wizard and earned back some of the costs. If that's the method you were envisoining I think I'd have to impose some limits. Wizards aren't very common in this setting and it wouldn't make sense for even a well-travelled seeress to have a whole ton of spells; also, I'd argue, part of the fun and challenge of being a Wizard (I think) is finding new spells and recording them, and meeting other spellcasters to do this kind of exchange.

However, if you're just talking about buying scrolls and copying them that way, I'm OK with that and don't think I'd bother setting any limits. Even if you spent all of your money on new scrolls that wouldn't be an outrageous number.

Remember that you do need to make a Spellcraft roll to learn new spells, and failure carries a time penalty of a week before you can retry. While a short time has passed between the end of the last sessions and the start of the new ones, I wouldn't say there's been aenough time to make multiple attempts to learn spells.

Incidentally, I found a variant set of rules for scribing onto different materials. They're slightly more expensive to compensate for their greater durability, which does make sense. I figure your Dvegar artefact counts as "copper metal plates," effectively. If you'd rather not use this variant though, that's fine. It's not part of the Paizo core rules.