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Fimbulvinter

Started by Steerpike, January 22, 2012, 05:04:09 PM

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Steerpike

Great, thanks guys!

There are several very likely days. To start, I think we'll try for one on Thursday the 11th starting at 1 (though I'll probably pop on a bit earlier), and then another at the same time on the 22nd. Does that sound good as a tentative plan?

Kindling

#286
Works for me provided I don't get asked to work last-minute :)
all hail the reapers of hope

sparkletwist

#287
That time is fine for me!  :D

Another question, are we going to use any sort of house rules for combat maneuvers so they don't... you know... suck?

I'm sure there are more involved ways to fix it, but it seems like a quick and dirty fix would be:
- "Improved" maneuvers no longer have prerequisites. Maybe increase their bonus too, but this could break prewritten NPCs so I don't know.
- If you try a maneuver without its "Improved" version, you only provoke an AoO if you fail at the maneuver.

Steerpike

#288
Hmm, I don't know if I want to get into the process of house-ruling Pathfinder too much, but I agree combat maneuvers are a bit difficult to pull off unless you have plenty of feats to burn (as this is an E8 game that might not be as much of a big deal, what with the "infinite feats" after 8th level, but still). Instead of fundamentally changing the way combat maneuvers work, though, I prefer this solution:

[spoiler=Powerful Maneuvers]Powerful Maneuvers (Combat)

Prerequisite: Str 13, Power Attack, base attack bonus +1.

You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a bull rush, drag, overrun, or sunder combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks with these combat maneuvers. Now a prerequisite for the relevant greater combat maneuver feats.[/spoiler]
[spoiler=Deft Manuevers]Deft Maneuvers (Combat)

Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip, disarm, dirty trick, feint, reposition, or steal combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks with these combat maneuvers. Now a prerequisite for the relevant greater combat maneuver feats.[/spoiler]

EDIT: I like this solution better for a few reasons. For one, I feel like just removing AoO on a success might screw a bit too much with people who invest in abilities that specifically allow them extra attacks of opportunity (i.e. Combat Reflexes and its many associated feats, like Combat Patrol, Bodyguard, etc). This solution still means that you do need to put some effort into becoming skilled with combat maneuvers, but you get access to them as a group.

That said I also don't hate the "Improved Manuevers Feats don't have prerequisites" solution. What do people think?

Rose-of-Vellum

I like it. I think it's a parsimonious, beneficial change, at least for the intended game. Since (IIRC) we're planning on playing only a few sessions, I'm happy to use an accessible, established -if perhaps imperfect- system. 

sparkletwist

Quote from: SteerpikeI don't know if I want to get into the process of house-ruling Pathfinder too much
I was actually trying to be conservative in my changes, like not actually creating any new feats. I think you changed more than me. :grin:

The big problem with "Deft Maneuvers" as written is that it maintains the Combat Expertise feat tax, and, perhaps more egregiously, the Int 13 requirement. This makes it hard for the dumb melee fighter to be much of a maneuver master, since he can't actually be that dumb-- in a game like this one with only a 15 point buy, that requirement hurts. I'll also point out that your version actually might make life worse for Lore Warden Fighters because they get Combat Expertise for free, and most of the useful stuff that comes after it doesn't actually require Int 13.

Quote from: SteerpikeI feel like just removing AoO on a success might screw a bit too much with people who invest in abilities that specifically allow them extra attacks of opportunity (i.e. Combat Reflexes and its many associated feats, like Combat Patrol, Bodyguard, etc).
That's a good point, but I stand by my view that giving martial characters more options and more variety in combat is a good thing, though-- right now, I think the AoOs mean that most of the time people won't even bother with a maneuver if they haven't spent the feats to specialize in it.

Polycarp

#291
It's worth pointing out that Feint is not a combat maneuver, does not provoke an attack of opportunity, and its "improved" feat does not provide it with a bonus - Improved Feint makes feinting a move action instead of standard.  If you take out Improved Feint and replace it with Deft Maneuvers as written, feinting is rendered pretty useless.  I'd recommend changing the feat to this:

[spoiler=Deft Maneuvers]Deft Maneuvers (Combat)

Prerequisite: Int 13, Combat Expertise.

You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a trip, disarm, dirty trick, reposition, or steal combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks with these combat maneuvers. In addition, using the Bluff skill to feint in combat is now a move action.  Now a prerequisite for the relevant greater combat maneuver feats.[/spoiler]

I have no issue with the change - well, I have lots of issues (like the prereq Combat Expertise being a pointless feat I have never seen used even once), but if I start suggesting all the changes to PF I'd like, we start down a rabbit hole with no foreseeable end.  You've expressed that you want to run a pretty "orthodox" PF game and I'm cool with that.

Edit: Though since Sparkletwist proposed it, I'd support just removing prereq feats from all "improved" feats as she suggested, along with their ability prereqs (e.g. Int 13, Str 13).  Requiring Str 13 is silly for combat maneuvers (it implies kobolds can never learn to bullrush one another), Combat Expertise is an enormous waste, and Kylfa for his part resents having to get Improved Unarmed Strike to grapple better since he doesn't fight unarmed in the first place.
The Clockwork Jungle (wiki | thread)
"The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way." - Marcus Aurelius

Steerpike

#292
Okay, I'm starting to lean towards just removing the prereqs from the Improved feats while keeping them separate rather than condensing them as I'd suggested. I think I'll keep it so that AoO are provoked either on successes or failures, though.

As to the rabbit-hole thing, I couldn't agree more; I mean, frankly, any system is going to imperfect. Rules-light systems might seem "more perfect" in the sense that they're more easily balanced, but, IMO, they come with their own drawbacks. I've already tinkered a bit (level cap, restricted classes and races, etc) and I don't want to get caught up too much in trying to fine-tune something as baroque and unwieldy as the d20/Pathfinder system.

Polycarp

#293
How about this:

Quote from: New Rule'Improved' combat maneuver* feats no longer have any prerequisites.  Any prerequisites removed in this way are also no longer required for any feats which have an 'Improved' combat maneuver feat as a prerequisite.

*For purposes of this rule, "combat maneuver" includes the feint action.

So Improved Trip has no prereqs, and Greater Trip has Improved Trip and BAB +6 as prereqs (but not Combat Expertise and Int 13, because they are no longer required for Improved Trip either).
The Clockwork Jungle (wiki | thread)
"The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way." - Marcus Aurelius


Polycarp

1.  I noticed Dagny had some traits, I guess in exchange for a feat.  Is that a thing?  Is it just your free human feat you can exchange for a pair of traits, or what?  I'm sort of unfamiliar with the trait mechanic.

2.  Kylfa, as a druid, knows Druidic and can learn Sylvan, "the language of woodland creatures."  Do these exist in Fimbulvinter?
The Clockwork Jungle (wiki | thread)
"The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way." - Marcus Aurelius

Steerpike

I've usually been favouring Álfari for things like fey, so that's probably the better choice.

I hadn't thought about Traits, but yeah, you guys can use them (I use them in my other game): each character gets 2. There are obviously some that won't make sense because they're Golarion-specific.

Polycarp

Quote from: SteerpikeI've usually been favouring Álfari for things like fey, so that's probably the better choice.

You mean for Sylvan?  (I assume then that Druidic is still Druidic)

QuoteI hadn't thought about Traits, but yeah, you guys can use them (I use them in my other game): each character gets 2. There are obviously some that won't make sense because they're Golarion-specific.

You mean two traits in addition to feats?  If I'm reading her character sheet correctly, I think Dagny has traits instead of a feat, so I'm sure sparkle will be pleased to hear she's got another feat coming. :)
The Clockwork Jungle (wiki | thread)
"The impediment to action advances action. What stands in the way becomes the way." - Marcus Aurelius

Steerpike

sprakletwist, can you confirm that? 2 traits is worth about 1 feat. She might have taken the Additional Traits feat, which grants 2 traits.

If that's the case, maybe we'll just leave things as-is. I don't want everyone to have to scramble to update their character sheets.

Also, hopefully I'll see some of you guys online tomorrow at 1PST!

EDIT: Oh yeah, Druidic is still Druidic.

sparkletwist

Yes, I didn't think this game used traits as such, so I took this feat and dropped the "Additional" because they weren't actually in addition to anything.

The Golarion-specific traits have generic OGL versions on d20pfsrd.com, so that's a good place to look.