The Campaign Builder's Guild

I think I will actually be able to make it tomorrow.

As for traits, I have no strong opinion either way.  If they're in, I'll find Kylfa some; if not, fine.

I have no strong opinion either. If they do get added, I'd recommend they be a 4th level upgrade thing (or at least the end of this session) rather than something people have to scramble to update. (And me to scramble to find another feat)

Your assumption was basically correct, sparkletwist (I hadn't mentioned traits), so let's leave it as-is.

I kind of like the idea that Traits might be a way to help flesh out character development after 8th level even further, although since everyone's 3rd it's a bit academic anyway.

Wulfheim Rumours

These are local rumours - roll 1d10 3 times (re-rolling duplicates) and read the corresponding spoiler tag(s). Tígris, re-roll if you get result 8.

1 - [spoiler]Murder: A short time ago, a local man named Hamdir was murdered by his brother, Hallvard; Hallvard, unable to pay the weregild, has been pronounced an outlaw. All honourable men must do him harm if they encounter him.[/spoiler]

2 - [spoiler]Mysterious Boats: Boats of an unknown clan have been sighted sailing the Sea of Skulls north of the Orm-Fells. Some say they are foreign invaders, others refugees from a distant land. Others claim they're Ljósálfar, or shades of the damned from Hel.[/spoiler]

3 - [spoiler]Sacred Grove: The sacred grove of Wulfheim has been re-consecrated thanks to a group of warriors newly come to Wulfheim. The Gothi Brúnn is once more practicing rituals there and is said to have healed a man suffering from Greenplague.[/spoiler]

4 - [spoiler]Vargar: Packs of huge wolves are roaming further and further from Ironwood. They are led not by a wolf but by a Trollwife and Wolf-Mother, Hyrrokkin, who rides one of the pack into battle. She claims to be seeking vengeance for her slaughtered son and sister.[/spoiler]

5 - [spoiler]Blizzard: A Hrafnii skald tells of truly terrible blizzard worse than any yet seen in Fimbulvinter currently ravaging Snӕrland and gathering strength as it moves south, towards the Hrafnlands. The man claims he said monstrous figures half-hidden by the swirling snow.[/spoiler]

6 - [spoiler]Dvergar Merchant: A trader from the north brings word that a Dvergar merchant has set up shop in Hrafnford and is selling marvelous objects forged in Svartálfaheim. Though his prices are steep, he is said to take curious trades.[/spoiler]

7 - [spoiler]Thefts: There is a thief in Wulfheim stealing coin and food. The Jarl has reputedly offered a modest reward for the rogue's capture. Whoever they thief is, they are sly indeed, for none have yet seen the man (or woman) in the act.[/spoiler]

8 - [spoiler]Elven Wanderer: A mysterious Ljósálfr is rumoured to be wandering nearby, seeking some treasure of the Vanir. The Elf is said to be accompanied by a monstrous cat as terrible as one of Freya's lions.[/spoiler]

9 - [spoiler]Aurochs Herd: There is a great herd of aurochs currently wandering the White Waste to the west of Wulfheim. Most of these great beasts were thought dead, victims of Fimbulvinter, but these seem to have survived. However, the herd are reputedly berserk, stampeding all in their path, letting no hunter close enough to kill one.[/spoiler]

10 - [spoiler]Scouts of the Dead: Travelers in the Blóðlands recently arrived in Wulfheim claim that scouting parties of undead Aptrgangar – Again-Walkers – have been sighted east of the Gjöll. Rumour holds they are part of a larger host to the west.[/spoiler]

Quote from: SteerpikeI kind of like the idea that Traits might be a way to help flesh out character development after 8th level even further, although since everyone's 3rd it's a bit academic anyway.

I was reading some of these today because we were talking after today's game about how Kylfa really ought to invest in some Intimidate given his experiences thus far.  Unfortunately it's not a Druid class skill, so I was looking at traits that might do that in case traits are either given retroactively or awarded later.

I then noticed that traits are seriously weird.

Quote from: Trait: Viking BloodYou gain a +1 trait bonus on Intimidate checks, and Intimidate is always a class skill for you.

Quote from: Trait: OmenYou gain a +1 trait bonus on Intimidate checks, and Intimidate is always a class skill for you. Once per day, you may attempt to demoralize an opponent as a swift action.

Seriously, what?  The balancing on these is even worse than feats.   :huh:

Yikers... yeah, the Traits are a bit of a grab-bag. I don't think any of them are crazy over-powered at least.

Maybe we should just leave them out unless you take the Additional Traits feat like Dagny has.

By the way, those present during the adventure receive 1050 xp for this session!

Looking at the schedule, likely days include the 17th and the 22nd. I don't want to overload people (and this is a casual game, so feel free to sit out any session you please), but do either of those days sound good?

Also, sparkletwist and I were having a conversation about character death. I don't want to get into a big debate, but just in the interests of having a forthright discussion on the topic, what are your guys' general feelings on character death?  E8 precludes Raise Dead (although Reincarnate is possible).

My general feeling on character death is that while I try to let the dice fall where they may, if there are circumstances where capture or a similar negative result short of death is possible, I'll tend to favour it over death even if that means bending the rules; but if, say, you cannonball into a lake of lava without protective spells, your character is probably going to burn to death unless they get very lucky on that 20d6 damage roll.

One interesting possibility - anyone who dies in battle gets recorded as having died an honourable death and therefore gets to become an einherjar. Once Ragnarök actually occurs - if the game eventually got there - these characters can return to play with a special template. There might also be opportunities to be sent back "early" with special missions from deities. The game's setting in many ways is about the death of everyone (according to the actual mythic source material, literally everyone mortal is supposed to die during Fimbulvinter) but also the return of all the dead in glorious battle; it seems to me that dynamic is ripe for some interesting game possibilities.

(Alternatively, if people just want death to mean death, that can be the case, too. It's a grim setting.)

Thoughts?

Quote from: SteerpikeYikers... yeah, the Traits are a bit of a grab-bag. I don't think any of them are crazy over-powered at least.

The issue seems to be not so much that they are over-powered, but that because of poor balancing they aren't likely do what they are ostensibly supposed to do: flesh out characters.  As flavorful as "Viking Blood" might be, there's no reason for a character who wants to be more intimidating to take anything other than "Omen."  (See also: the apparently universally taken Reactionary trait.)

QuoteLooking at the schedule, likely days include the 17th and the 22nd. I don't want to overload people (and this is a casual game, so feel free to sit out any session you please), but do either of those days sound good?

As usual I don't know my schedule ahead of time, but coming just a few days before X-mas I can assure you that the 22nd is impossible for me.

QuoteAlso, sparkletwist and I were having a conversation about character death. I don't want to get into a big debate, but just in the interests of having a forthright discussion on the topic, what are your guys' general feelings on character death?  E8 precludes Raise Dead (although Reincarnate is possible).

It's an episodic sort of game, I don't really have a problem with no-fudging character death.  As for Reincarnation, I'm appalled that Pathfinder has made it humanoid-only.  In glorious 3rd ed, you could come back as a goddamn wolverine.

Oh, I'd make my own Reincarnation chart, if only because the standard array doesn't make sense in this setting. There is some basis for reincarnation in Norse mythology. Often humans get reborn as other humans, but sometimes they also seem to become Elves, and I don't think it stretches the source material too much to consider animal forms (there are certainly animal spirits and things).

Are we still keeping track of XP from previous sessions?  I have 4,770 down from the last "season" for Kylfa, minus the dragon battle, which I don't seem to have recorded XP for.

Due to general confusion, lost stats, changes etc I think it makes sense to just restart at 5000 (plus the 1050 for last session), unless anyone was significantly over and had it recorded.

Update: looking through the thread it actually looks as if I was using the Slow progression for characters. Ghostman's character sheet confirms this. Therefore, everyone should start at 7,500 (before the 1050 for last session), not 5000. My bad for forgetting this.

Slow progression does make more sense for an E8 game, to me. With fewer levels it makes sense to elongate the xp progression a bit more.

I'm good with either the 17th or the 22nd, or both, even, if we feel like doing that and fitting in some extra adventures while everyone's enthusiastic and likely to have some free time.

Anyway, about XP: do we even want to use XP? It's kind of a relic. It might be simpler to just level up when it's appropriate to the story or desired by the group or whatever. In nearly every Pathfinder game I've played in that actually used XP, the XP given has been fudged so that level-ups happened at "suitable" times anyway.

Also, I think that giving XP to those present (and only them) seems like there is now a "punishment" for sitting out a session in the form of missed XP, which sort of goes against the idea of a casual game. Worse, players who don't attend many sessions might actually show up with a lower level character than everyone else, making encounter balance and intraparty balance more difficult. Not that PF is particularly balanced anyway... but the problem doesn't need to be made worse.

As for character death, I believe you already know my feelings on the topic. :grin:

Yes, I do want to use XP, but I am granting XP for story events and other means of defeating foes and not just combat - so I am, to a certain extent, ad-hoc-ing XP. So, for example, I gave out XP for talking your way into the village just as if you'd killed those guards at the ravine, and I gave out XP for Thorvaldi just as if you'd slain him instead of besting him in a wrestling competition.

I'm afraid the concept of levelling up when the group feels like it is just a bit too avant garde for my tastes - I've no problem with other games being run this way, but it's not how I'd like to run this one. Likewise the DM just simply handing out level ups when he or she feels like it or when it seems suitable based on plot concerns doesn't appeal to me either, and doesn't seem especially well suited to an episodic game that has fewer long plots and major objectives than a long campaign with more definite story-beats.

XP with plentiful story awards etc seems like a reasonable comprimise between the two methods to me. It may sometimes encourage a bit of murder-hobo behaviour, but really Fimbulvinter isn't too far from "Murderhobos: Norse Edition" anyway!

If the game really goes on long enough for significant power imbalances (i.e. more than a level) to crop up due to XP, we'll cross that bridge when we come to it. Slow progression will actually ease this to some degree, I think. Someone would have to play an awful lot more to get ahead by more than a level. To me, not awarding XP for sitting out a session is exactly the same as not awarding treasure. If it becomes a serious problem and people feel they're being penalized over scheduling to the point where the game is becoming appreciably less enjoyable for them, I could see doing things to remedy that, though.

Quote from: SteerpikeI am granting XP for story events and other means of defeating foes

Quote from: Steerpikethe DM just simply handing out level ups when he or she feels like it or when it seems suitable based on plot concerns doesn't appeal to me either

In a system where the DM is the only one that has any say in when the characters level up, the leveling up happens when the DM says it does. You can do this by simple fiat, or you can put a bunch of bookkeeping around it and call them story awards and whatever, but ultimately, the DM makes all the decisions regarding how much XP to give-- so the leveling up happens when the DM says it does, and all of the bookkeeping and rigmarole is just a pointless waste of time and mental energy.

Quote from: Steerpikedoesn't seem especially well suited to an episodic game

Why not N episodes = +1 level, for whatever value of N you like? This also solves the problem that some episodes will be "worth" more than others, which is vaguely insulting to anyone who shined brightest in a "less valuable" episode.

Quote from: SteerpikeTo me, not awarding XP for sitting out a session is exactly the same as not awarding treasure.

Well, yes, but I think having huge treasure disparities is a bad idea, too.

QuoteThis also solves the problem that some episodes will be "worth" more than others, which is vaguely insulting to anyone who shined brightest in a "less valuable" episode.

...This is a problem?  Why would anyone care that the XP reward for one of their favorite/best sessions was not as high as some other session?