The Campaign Builder's Guild

[note]I recently changed direction on my goal for creating a new armor system, one which I think will be more simplistic.[/note]

Recently I have developed an interest in reworking D&D's armor system. Currently I run a game utilizing Armor as AC and DR, Class Defense Bonuses, and Wound/Vitality Points, but as usual I intend to create my new rules in such a way that everyone can use them (like my MP system). I have begun talking with Raelifin about it, but I'd like to open up discussion about it first before I begin working on it in earnest.

So, I'd like to open up the floor to discuss Armor in D&D. I believe the biggest flaw in D&D's armor system is that one's choice of armor is not a character preference; a character chooses the best armor for their Dex. Expanding upon that, there are currently 5 out of the standard 12 armors that are worthless: Hide, Scale Mail, Chain Mail, Splint Mail, and Banded Mail. The reasons these armors are weak is because their AC Bonus and Max Dex Bonus add up to less than 8. Worse still, the only armors which do add up to 8 or more fall upon Dex scores in such a way that a character with a Dex of 14 or 15 lacks an optimal Armor; they're stuck with wearing a heavier armor and losing out on some of their Dex, or wearing a lighter armor and getting less AC.

Another fault is that heavy armors are fundamentally weaker than other armors; what I mean is that you can get the same AC and a better speed with lighter armors and a decent Dex: there is absolutely no reason for a high Dex character to want to strap on heavy armor, and that doesn't seem realistic to me. I recently started learning to weave maille, so I've been talking with recreationists who fight with blunted metal weapons and functional armor, so I've begun to see a new side of armor.

The only way to improve armors in D&D currently is to boost the AC granted by medium and heavy armors. All armors should have AC bonuses and Max Dex bonuses that add up to 8, and mediums should add up to 9 and heavies should add up to 10; that way, taking getting heavier armor proficiencies actually grants you extra power, rather than simply allowing you to survive with a lower Dexterity score (which carries it's own penalties, which is why I don't buy it).

Taking those points to a further level, the fundamental flaw of D&D's armor system is that it lacks player options and aesthetics; I have a player who really likes chain armors, his characters either have too high Dexterities or too low Dexterities to utilize them properly. An example of a system in the game which allows for aesthetic appeal is the weapon system: ideally, every weapon of the same proficiency and handedness is as powerful as the others (scimitar, longsword, and battleaxe are all the same power; use of them comes down to preference for image or preference for critical styles [though I admit the higher threat range/higher crit multiplier weapons become better once you have massive bonuses to damage, except against crit immunes]).

So, a character's choice between Light, Medium, and Heavy armor should be more similar to the choice between a simple, martial, or exotic weapon, or perhaps a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon; it's partially preference, and partially use the best you can (but to defend the last statement, someone who wishes to use something lighter or heavier should still get a tangible benefit out of their choice).

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[note]Here's where things change.[/note]

Keeping with my original idea of reducing armor to leather, chain, and plate, I have come to the realization that a more simplistic system is possible. First off, we start with the three armor types: Light, Medium, and Heavy. We also have three armor materials: leather, chain, and plate. This just begs to be condenced: now we have three armors: Leather, Chain, and Plate.

Then, what about heavier materials? Since there are only 3 armor proficiencies, we can't change things to much, but we can make heavy leather (a medium armor) which we call Hide, we can also make light leather (a light armor) which we call chainshirt, a heavy chain (a heavy armor) which we'll call splint mail (plates linked to other plates, a "soft" armor like chain), and last a light plate (a medium armor) which we'll call breastplate.

That gives us 7 armors: 2 lights, 3 mediums, and 2 heavies.

Then, to create differences between them. Leather armor can provide an even amount of AC and DR; leather both absorbs impact and deflects impact (because leather is hardened and becomes rather inflexible). Chain armor can provide more DR than AC; chain, for the most part, protects by absorbing impact, not deflecting it. Plate armor, finally, can provide more AC than DR; plate protects largely by deflecting blows, while a solid hit can still mostly be felt. I may be off base here, but this will create armors with some varieties, and those varieties can be chosen for stylistic and esthetic purposes (just like one chooses between a sword and an axe for looks and for the differences between a 19-20/x2 crit and a 20/x3 crit).

To keep differentiation alive, there will be some modifications. All seven of these armors can be "reinforced": leather becomes studded, chain becomes scale, and plate becomes full plate (I imagine basic plate being like roman armor, made of bands of plates layered over one another, and full plate being a more reinforced structure). Reinforced armors will increase AC but decrease maneuverability (allowing a player to further customize their character: do they want a higher flatfooted AC or a higher touch AC?).

Lastly, I will propose a change to Max Dex bonuses. Currently, Max Dex bonuses cause a lot of min-maxing: most people won't pick chainmail over breastplate since they both offer the same AC but breastplate has a higher Max Dex. Max Dex causes the light armors to be good, and leaves breastplate and full-plate as the only medium/heavy armors on the playing field (and even then, the differences between chainshirt and breastplate are small at best).

So, instead of having Max Dex, armors can have a Dex penalty, or simply a Dodge penalty (similar to the Armor Check Penalties). I've worn armor before, a simple aluminum hauberk that weighed 15 pounds. It restricted me, even with padding and a weight reducing belt. There's no way I have higher than an 18 dex, which I'd need to be restricted by what amounts to a Chainshirt in D&D. Slapping a suit of fullplate on a Dex 18 guy and a Dex 8 guy should restrict them both, but in D&D only the Dex 18 guy is restricted. Replacing Max Dex with a Dodge penalty will make balancing armors more simple.

So, how much of a penalty? Let's say Light armors have an AC+DR equalling 2, Medium's equalling 5, and Heavy's equalling 8: how much of a penalty should they impose? I'd prefer them all to be even numbers, which will make things easier, so it could also be 2, 6, and 10. Reinforcing armor will increase the dodge penalty by 1 (and adjust the weight and armor check penalties).

So, with these changes, does anyone have any new ideas?

Of course, where does that leave the aesthetical pleasures of the scale mail, banded mail, and splint mail?

It seems like a good system, but it also adds even more math to the game.  Every change to make things more realistic in D&D also tends to make things more complicated there on the playing table.  I've gotten recently where I just prefer to keep things simple.  But on the other hand, it does seem like a good way to go to accomplish what you're trying to accomplish.  There should be more options, though, than just leather, chain, and plate.

Quote from: IshmaylOf course, where does that leave the aesthetical pleasures of the scale mail, banded mail, and splint mail?

As I began to say, scale is "reinforced" chain. If you've seen what armor scales look like, they are diamond plates with a hole at the top so they can be fitted onto chain rings. So it's like a coat of maille with plates hanging off it.

Banded and split would probably be "primitive" plate.

As for the math, once it's finished I don't think it would be too much. Heck, you don't even have to use it as a piecemeal system, you can just have premade suits. The main purpose is to strike a balance between the armor types, make mediums and heavy actually perform better in certain categories, so that there is more of a choice.

I find this system adjustment to be a good thing. Long have I played with the actual choice between five different armors. I'm hopping to use your system, when you hammer it out. Good luck.

Question about non standard armor, what about those who wear 20 odd layers of clothing insted of armor. (a gutter snipes mounten of clothing must count as some thing)

That would be "padded" armor, which could be seen as "inferior leather".

I'm still hammering out ideas for this, but since I've begun actual work on my setting, it will be some time before I get to the equipment section (I'm doing it chapter by chapter, so "Races" is my current focus).

Hmmm. So you say you don't like the fact that a high dex with light armor can equal full plate? But, the question is, why bother with that high dexterity if you could go for strength instead and wear full plate?

Most characters I've seen with high dexterities have those stats because they either A) Want to be a swashbuckler-type wearing light armor and finessing, or B) Their class doesn't allow heavier armors. You'll generally already be better off keeping dex at a 12 and going for full plate, while being able to hit stuff harder, no?

Sure, high dexterity and light armor can achieve the same AC as full plate and relatively low dexterity, and will have higher speed, but he'll also have to burn a feat for Weapon Finesse, be hitting for way less damage (smaller weapon for Weapon Finesse + Lower Strength Modifier), and he probably built the character that way because he wanted to be in light armor.

If anything, I've had trouble getting people out of heavy armors, which is why I devised a convoluted mechanical way of saying, "Not many wear armor in the city!" for my urban campaign setting.


As for piecemeal armor, I think the idea in general has a lot of possibility for character customization, but it can end up overcomplicating things, so be careful.

Oh, and I agree it's a shame there's only one or two armors from each catagory worthy of being worn.

High dex characters should be harder to hit; low dex characters with heavy armor should be harder to damage. This is ultimately why I believe an AC+DR system for armor is the best solution; it allows for more variety within each max dex.

In the end, I'm still working on this, but your input will help me.

Hello there: I've made a change to the first post, since I've come up with a more simplistic system for this change.

Additionally, I created helmets for my game:

Leather Cap: +1 AC vs. critical confirmation checks, -1 Spot and Listen.
Chain Hood: +2 AC vs. critical confirmation checks, -2 Spot and Listen.
Plate Helm: +3 AC vs. critical confirmation checks, -2 Spot and Listen.
Full Helm: +4 AC vs. critical confirmation checks, -4 Spot and Listen.

Since gaining +4 to hit for critical confirmation checks is a feat, and -4 Spot and Listen is a flaw, I figure gaining +4 AC vs. critical confirmation checks could be considered a feat (and thus balanced out by the flaw). The others followed suit.

Quote from: XeviatHigh dex characters should be harder to hit; low dex characters with heavy armor should be harder to damage. This is ultimately why I believe an AC+DR system for armor is the best solution; it allows for more variety within each max dex.

In the end, I'm still working on this, but your input will help me.

I see your point and I agree with it. However, I don't agree with the point that armor should provide both AC and DR.

The sidebar in UA explicitly explains how even the fullplate's DR of 4/- (or was it even 5/- ?) actually hurts against monsters with high attack bonuses and high damage values. The drop in AC compared to the normal AC bonus the armor would have normally provided makes the monsters hit more often, which does outweight the reduced damage from the DR.

Imho armor should only provide DR and not AC (which makes the term "armor class" somewhat useless, but still...). Also, I would make enhancement bonuses directly increase the DR. So that when a normal armor of type X has DR Y/-, a +1 armor of type X has DR Y+1/-. My reasoning is that there is indeniably an increase of damage output on the side of both monsters and PCs due to additional supplements. While the problem not being as evident in a "Core only" game, the moment you allow eg CWar you'll notice. And when a CR 20ish monster deals ~70 points of damage per blow, your armor's DR of 3/- is not helping much.

Therefore, if you made the DR armor grants equal to its current armor bonus, and allowed enhancement bonuses to improve that DR, the worst thing you could run across was DR 16/- on a highlevel fighter/paladin running around in a +5 adamantine fullplate, which seem's hardly extraordinary by the time a character can afford that compared to what spellcasters gain from polymorph and its ilk. Actually, that'd make improving your armor's enhancement bonus instead of just stockpiling special abilities at last worthwhile, because after around level 10 or so every non-AC-twinked character is going to get hit on a rolled 2 anyways.

I'm definitely much more interested in this with your recent changes.  I don't have any real constructive criticism or advice to offer, but I'm interested in trying this system out.

Also, where you mentioned "(I imagine basic plate being like roman armor, made of bands of plates layered over one another, and full plate being a more reinforced structure),"  I think of full plate being a custom-fitted armor;  full plate that was made for Bill may not fit properly on Bobby, and vice-versa, whereas regular plate mail (or as you mentioned, the roman banded plate armor), is kind of a "one-size-fits-all," or at least a "small, medium, large, extra-large" type of thing.

Anyhoo, good work.

Ra, the problem with having armor only provide DR is that it is entirely possible to circumvent armor entirely; if I hit the arm of someone wearing breastplate, I'm only bitting into leather (as D&D defines brestplate), or the arm of someone in chainshirt is completly uncovered.

Armor both absorbs and deflects. A curved surface has a higher chance of deflecting than a flat surface, which is why plate armor deflects so well. Deflection is much different than absorbing, which is what DR is. Ever recreationist I've spoken to on this matter says that armor both deflects and absorbs, and that my notion of "soft" armors (mails) providing more absorbtion than others is quite sound.

The only way I'd be able to see making armor entirely DR would be if crits were more likely and the function of crits was ignoring DR.

By the way, any opinions on my helms?

Quote from: XeviatRa, the problem with having armor only provide DR is that it is entirely possible to circumvent armor entirely; if I hit the arm of someone wearing breastplate, I'm only bitting into leather (as D&D defines brestplate), or the arm of someone in chainshirt is completly uncovered. [..]

Which only enters the stage if you use a hit-location system, something I highly oppose in DnD/d20. DnD's hit point mechanic is too abstract to allow for a reasonable way of determining where the blow landed. I personally abhorr the idea of hit-location in DnD just as I do with "critical fumbles". :-/

If the only important thing is "hit" or "no hit", then my suggestion would work very well. And even with your explaination of armor deflecting the blow... the blow still connected, didn't it? It only failed to inflict damage on the wearer because it slid off on the armor.

Quote from: XeviatBy the way, any opinions on my helms?

Nice, although I'm not sure if it was necessary. AFAICR, armor in DnD is supposed to come with appropriate headgear, or am I wrong? And the penalty to Spot/Listen - although being realistic - makes situation even worse for characters that usually wear heavy armors: fighters and paladins.  :?:

I like the idea of armors providing both DR and AC, it does work to make the swinging of swords and stuff a bit more realistic when hitting a hard vs a soft surface.

But, on the dodge penalties.  If you give an armor a ac bonus of 3, but then turn around and give it a dodge penalty of 3, aren't you worse off than if you'd just gone with straight DR in the first place?  I understand where you're coming from on the logic of it, but putting in a dodge penalty defeats the purpose of the armor in the first place.  A decrease is speed, the standard armor check penalties, penalties on the dexterity stat itself would all, more or less, make sense.  A dodge penalty, imho, doesn't.