The Campaign Builder's Guild

In a Pathfinder game recently I played as a Gravewalker Witch (inspired in large part by Steerpike's excellent character Morwen) and a couple of questions came up.

- What does Aura of Desecration actually even do? It says it "increases the DC of channeled negative energy by +1 and the turn resistance of undead by +1" but what it doesn't say it that applies only when it would be beneficial to the witch, or anything like that. Is this how most people play it? By RAW, wouldn't the two things completely cancel each other out? Any undead that the witch is trying to control get a +1 bonus to their save, counterbalanced by her +1 to the DC. And that's assuming that her Bonethrall ability counts as channeled negative energy, which it might not because it's distinct from the cleric ability; if not, then her own Aura of Desecration actually just gets in her way!

- How do Bonethralled intelligent undead react? Is it like a charm person where they're made friendly, or is it a mental influence that they hate but can't resist? The description of command undead (the spell) suggests the former, but the ability is otherwise modeled on the clerical Command Undead (not the spell) which is based on the spell control undead which... seems more like the latter. It seems odd to me that these two aren't consistent, or at least bad editing on the part of someone at Paizo due to the rather confusing fact that the feat Command Undead makes reference to the spell control undead while the spell command undead is an entirely different mechanic.

I probably should've asked these questions about Morwen, but I was juggling a lot of things when DMing. Better late than never I guess!

The thing that stands out immediately is that "turn resistance" is not actually a thing in Pathfinder, it's a 3rd ed term.  Pathfinder has "channel resistance" instead:

Quote from: Channel ResistanceA creature with channel resistance adds the bonus listed for that creature to saves made to resist the effects of channel energy, including effects that rely on the use of channel energy (such as the Command Undead feat).

A Gravewalker can't channel and doesn't have channel feats.  Bonethrall, as you say, seems to be modeled on the Command Undead feat, though it explicitly references the command undead spell.  Since the spell is referenced, and the command undead spell isn't an "effect that relies on the use of channel energy," I'd conclude that neither the command undead spell nor the Gravewalker ability are affected by channel resistance.  Since "turn resistance" is a meaningless phrase in PF, we can only assume that they meant "channel resistance," and thus the bonus from the aura doesn't hamper Bonethrall at all.

Of course, this leads us to another weird situation, since now we have an ability that doesn't actually do much for the witch.  Channel resistance is mildly useful against enemy clerics trying to turn/injure/control the Gravewalker's undead, but the Gravewalker gets no use at all from the DC increase to channeled negative energy, since she doesn't channel and has no channeling based ability.

To complicate things further, Gravewalker is technically compatible with the Hex Channeler archetype, which does grant energy channeling, so you could theoretically have a situation in which a Gravewalker/Hex Channeler with the Command Undead feat could have two different ways of controlling undead, one of which is affected by channel resistance and one which isn't.  In that case the vague wording of the Aura actually becomes an issue, because we're in the situation you're talking about where the bonus to channel DC is cancelled out by the bonus to undead saves from channel resistance.

I really don't know what's going on with this archetype.  Aside from the fact that it was apparently written by someone who didn't graduate from the Paizo Academy of New Version Terminology, it puts you in a situation where the aura either has an effect that's useless to you (unless you're a Hex Channeler) or potentially cancels itself out (if you ARE a Hex Channeler).  My common sense tells me that this ability was intended to make the witch's undead tougher to turn/harm/control, but written by someone without a clear grasp of the differences between spell-based and channel-based undead control, and forgetful of the fact that Gravewalkers can't actually channel.

Ah, Polycarp beat me to the punch as I was posting.

I've been operating under the assumption that Bonethrall doesn't count as turning. Turning is something clerics/paladins of good alignment do using the Turn Undead feat using channeled positive energy. A Witch using Bonethrall is not using the channel energy class feature or the turn undead feat, and turning does not use negative energy. The Aura makes undead resilient versus positive energy (turning) while empowering negative energy channeled (which can be chaneled into living people to hurt them).

As Polycarp notes, "turn resistance" seems to be a bit of a relic from 3rd edition and they probably mean channel resistance. But even if this is so, I still don't think that it helps an undead save vs. Bonethrall.

I don't think the +1 DC applies to Bonethrall, either (as Polycarp says). Bonethrall is not expressed as a form of channeling negative energy but an act of the Witch forcing her will onto the undead. It says to use the Hex DC, and doesn't mention the Aura of Desecreation bonus. I don't think I've been adding +1 to my DCs for Bonethrall. My Bonethrall DC is 16 (1/2 Morwen's level, i.e. 2, +4 for her Int modifier).

For intelligent undead and Bonethrall, I think it works like charm person since Bonethrall is said to function like command undead the spell even if some of its mechanics bear some similarity to the control undead spell or the Command Undead feat. However, I think that behaviour is difficult to mechanize or craft compelling rules for, so interpretations not only might vary but are simply necessary for the ability to work.

I disagree with Polycarp that the ability is written by someone without a grasp of the spell/channel mechanics. I think it's meant to make the undead in your aura (your pets) more resistant to attack by clerics and paladins. The +1 DC, I would argue, applies to spells like Inflict Wounds that are specifically described as channeling negative energy, which helps Gravewalkers.

Quote from: SteerpikeI disagree with Polycarp that the ability is written by someone without a grasp of the spell/channel mechanics. I think it's meant to make the undead in your aura (your pets) more resistant to attack by clerics and paladins. The +1 DC, I would argue, applies to spells like Inflict Wounds that are specifically described as channeling negative energy, which helps Gravewalkers.

I suppose I could see that - it depends on whether the "you channel negative energy" in the description of Inflict spells and the like actually has technical meaning or whether "channeled negative energy" in the description of the Aura refers strictly to the channel ability.  And if you interpret it broadly, it's not completely without use, because with the "Deliver Touch Spells" ability of the Poppet you could use Inflict spells at range and benefit from a +1 to DC (though whether casting inflict spells at pretty close range as a full-round action solely to capitalize on a +1 bonus to DC is a good use of your time is another question entirely).  There seem to be very few other spells, however, that use the same wording.

My issue is more that there seem to be two distinct methods of controlling undead, arcane (spell) and divine (channel), which the Gravewalker and its abilities muddle to no apparent purpose.  The Bonethrall ability seems modeled after the (divine) feat in some sense, but references the spell (and in fact receives the spell as part of their list); the class is an arcane caster that nevertheless gets a bonus to channeling despite having no channeling (inflict spells notwithstanding).  If you were to add actual channeling to the mix, either with a multiclass into Cleric or the Hex Channeler archetype, you seem get the weird cancelling out problem Sparkle brought up.  Combined with the out-of-date terminology, it gives the impression of being rather poorly executed.

The capabilities of the designers, however, are irrelevant to Sparkle's actual questions, and on the answers to those I agree with you pretty much completely.  The ability says it functions "as if" the command undead spell had been used, and that's fairly straightforward: "If the subject is intelligent, it perceives your words and actions favorably (treat its attitude as friendly)."  It's a bit strange that it still requires the daily save to resist your commands as with the command undead feat (which "enslaves" undead, not merely making them friendly), but that doesn't seem to overturn the aforementioned wording.

I'm just grateful that you didn't choose the Hex Channeler archetype too, because then I'm not sure what would be going on.

I get where you're coming from - the Gravewalker does kind of muddle the arcane/divine distinction. Generally, though, I think the Witch actually muddies this distinction generally, just as a concept. She's really closer to Druids and Clerics conceptually than she is to Wizards or Sorcerers. Clerics are "Called to serve powers beyond most mortal understanding" and Druids "worship personifications of elemental forces, natural powers, or nature itself." The Witch "draws her magic from a pact made with an otherworldly power" or from "communion with the unknown" or "mysterious powers." Her role is compared to that of a seer and healer and like Druids Witches often live "on the edge of civilization."

I think what the Witch demonstrates is that the whole arcane/divine distinction is a little silly and outmoded. Divine power doesn't necessarily come from gods and arcane power doesn't necessarily come from the self, so the differences get pretty muddy.

Personally, the muddiness does not worry me because the class fulfills its function - to make a Voodoo Priestess type character.

Muddling themes or concepts is fine, but also beside the point.  I'm talking about muddling rules, which is not fine.  There are basically two different rulesets for controlling undead, which are being muddled; whether they are conceptually arcane/divine, red/blue, or A/B isn't really the issue.  It's perfectly possible to make a class that mixes two concepts and have perfectly coherent and sensible rules for it.  I don't think that was done here, or at least not fully.  The resulting class is mechanically serviceable (if you avoid channeling) but somewhat inelegant and confusing, even if it's conceptually on point.

Quote from: PolycarpThere are basically two different rulesets for controlling undead, which are being muddled; whether they are conceptually arcane/divine, red/blue, or A/B isn't really the issue.  It's perfectly possible to make a class that mixes two concepts and have perfectly coherent and sensible rules for it.  I don't think that was done here, or at least not fully.  The resulting class is mechanically serviceable (if you avoid channeling) but somewhat inelegant and confusing, even if it's conceptually on point.

I agree with this.

Anyway, thanks for the answers. I think I can make some sense of it now.

A simple house-rule to fix things could be to rule that Bonethrall does count as channeling negative energy and that Aura of Desecration only provides channel resistance vs. positive energy (which the "turn" description already suggests). This seems true to the intent of the class.

Making Bonethrall a channeling ability seems nice because it gives you the aura bonus, but you have to watch out because innate channel resistance is actually rather common in PF.  Vampires and ghouls, both pretty iconic, get +4 and +2 channel resistance, respectively, and a raft of other undead creatures/templates get it too.  The result is that the ability is actually substantially weakened against many opponents if it becomes a channeling ability.

Alternately, one could keep Bonethrall unchanged but rule that the bonuses from Aura of Desecration apply only to allies (so only your own and allied character channeling is boosted, and only your controlled/friendly undead gain the channel resistance).  The bonus to channeling remains mostly useless (unless you're a Hex Channeler too), but you can still use it for inflict spells and if you do pick up channeling at least it's no longer hampered by your own aura.

I'm not bothered by the channel resistance of some tougher undead-- in fact, it seems more odd to me that Bonethrall is somehow immune to that when it's otherwise so mechanically similar to what a cleric does.

So, I like Steerpike's suggestion, and my ruling for Underdepths and what I'm going to suggest to the DM of this game is:
- The ability counts as channeling, so it grants +1 to the save DC for trying to control the undead, making it handy. Steerpike, you might want to note this on Morwen's character sheet.
- Undead in the aura get a +1 bonus against positive energy only, keeping them safe from clerics and paladins who want to mess with your pets but not interfering.