Pathfinder - Fixing Feats

Xathan · February 09, 2016, 01:14:19 AM

So one thing that came up during the discussion in this thread by LC was how the feat system, in many ways, screws martial classes and really, all classes that take them (so...everyone.)

One fix that was proposed during that thread was to merge together different weapon groups so instead of taking say, Weapon Focus (Short Sword), you would just take Weapon Focus (Swords), and the bonuses would apply all swords you weild, not just one particular type. It remaindered me of, back during Sparkletwist's Battle for the Underdepths game, many feats were bundled together to make them much more interesting and more viable options. Here's the examples she used:

"Improved" combat maneuvers have no prerequisites. "Greater" combat maneuvers have their Improved maneuver as a prerequisite, plus whatever BAB requirement they normally have.
Dodge includes Mobility. In addition, the +4 dodge bonus granted by Mobility applies to any AoO provoked by performing combat maneuvers without the "Improved" feat.
Precise Shot includes Point-Blank Shot and Far Shot.
Rapid Shot includes Rapid Reload. Its only prerequisite is now Precise Shot.
Improved Unarmed Strike also increases the unarmed strike's damage to 1d6 and allows you to make two-handed unarmed strikes for the usual 1.5x strength bonus.
Expanded Arcana allows you to change your spell choices at every level, including learning spells you couldn't cast at the time you took the feat.

Add that to making all weapon specific feats instead weapon group feats, and I think we're off to a decent start.

However, I think we can do more

So what I'm asking people is are there any other feats you feel should be bundled together? How about feats that should just be made baseline for all characters? Or other feats like what was done above to Weapon Group Feats as well as Expanded Arcana and Improved Unarmed Strike where the feats could be drastically improved in their current form to make them better choices?

Some ideas that come to mind for myself:

Drawing a weapon is always a free action. Quick Draw now gives you a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls the first time you draw your weapon in combat.
Rapid Reload is included with Weapon Focus (Crossbows or Bows or Firearms), and Weapon Focus (Crossbows or Bows) is now a prerequisite for Crossbow Mastery
Iron Will, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes now include their improved versions.
Toughness also includes some other benefit. What comes to mind is your choice of DR 1/-, Energy Resistance 5 (choose a type for each point of Toughness you get past the first 3), additional HP when you first take the feat based on your con modifier, or spell resistance 10 + bonus HP this feat provides. Something to make it more viable option.

LoA · February 09, 2016, 01:39:27 AM

Quote from: Xathan
So one thing that came up during the discussion in this thread by LC was how the feat system, in many ways, screws martial classes and really, all classes that take them (so...everyone.)

One fix that was proposed during that thread was to merge together different weapon groups so instead of taking say, Weapon Focus (Short Sword), you would just take Weapon Focus (Swords), and the bonuses would apply all swords you weild, not just one particular type. It remaindered me of, back during Sparkletwist's Battle for the Underdepths game, many feats were bundled together to make them much more interesting and more viable options. Here's the examples she used:

"Improved" combat maneuvers have no prerequisites. "Greater" combat maneuvers have their Improved maneuver as a prerequisite, plus whatever BAB requirement they normally have.
Dodge includes Mobility. In addition, the +4 dodge bonus granted by Mobility applies to any AoO provoked by performing combat maneuvers without the "Improved" feat.
Precise Shot includes Point-Blank Shot and Far Shot.
Rapid Shot includes Rapid Reload. Its only prerequisite is now Precise Shot.
Improved Unarmed Strike also increases the unarmed strike's damage to 1d6 and allows you to make two-handed unarmed strikes for the usual 1.5x strength bonus.
Expanded Arcana allows you to change your spell choices at every level, including learning spells you couldn't cast at the time you took the feat.

Add that to making all weapon specific feats instead weapon group feats, and I think we're off to a decent start.

However, I think we can do more

So what I'm asking people is are there any other feats you feel should be bundled together? How about feats that should just be made baseline for all characters? Or other feats like what was done above to Weapon Group Feats as well as Expanded Arcana and Improved Unarmed Strike where the feats could be drastically improved in their current form to make them better choices?

Some ideas that come to mind for myself:

Drawing a weapon is always a free action. Quick Draw now gives you a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls the first time you draw your weapon in combat.
Rapid Reload is included with Weapon Focus (Crossbows or Bows or Firearms), and Weapon Focus (Crossbows or Bows) is now a prerequisite for Crossbow Mastery
Iron Will, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes now include their improved versions.
Toughness also includes some other benefit. What comes to mind is your choice of DR 1/-, Energy Resistance 5 (choose a type for each point of Toughness you get past the first 3), additional HP when you first take the feat based on your con modifier, or spell resistance 10 + bonus HP this feat provides. Something to make it more viable option.

As I was reading the thread, this part jumped out at me. I too have found the preposterous corner painting nature of Fighters annoying and wondered about this myself. However my solution is pretty simple. There was a variant rule called Weapon Group Feats. To put it simply, they give you proficiency with any weapon associated with a type. For instance the Ax Weapon Group Feat gives you proficiency with almost all axes save ones that are exotic like Orc axes or the like. Long Sword Family Proficient Feat gives you proficiency with all long swords except for exotic ones (etc. etc.)

Here's the link to the original source. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm

Xathan · February 09, 2016, 01:58:28 AM

Quote from: Love of Awesome

As I was reading the thread, this part jumped out at me. I too have found the preposterous corner painting nature of Fighters annoying and wondered about this myself. However my solution is pretty simple. There was a variant rule called Weapon Group Feats. To put it simply, they give you proficiency with any weapon associated with a type. For instance the Ax Weapon Group Feat gives you proficiency with almost all axes save ones that are exotic like Orc axes or the like. Long Sword Family Proficient Feat gives you proficiency with all long swords except for exotic ones (etc. etc.)

Here's the link to the original source. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm

Yeah, I remember those. They're a good start for what was proposed, but don't go nearly far enough.

LoA · February 09, 2016, 02:45:16 AM

Quote from: Xathan
Quote from: Love of Awesome

As I was reading the thread, this part jumped out at me. I too have found the preposterous corner painting nature of Fighters annoying and wondered about this myself. However my solution is pretty simple. There was a variant rule called Weapon Group Feats. To put it simply, they give you proficiency with any weapon associated with a type. For instance the Ax Weapon Group Feat gives you proficiency with almost all axes save ones that are exotic like Orc axes or the like. Long Sword Family Proficient Feat gives you proficiency with all long swords except for exotic ones (etc. etc.)

Here's the link to the original source. http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/buildingCharacters/weaponGroupFeats.htm

Yeah, I remember those. They're a good start for what was proposed, but don't go nearly far enough.

Okay how about these ideas?

I hate the lack of synergy that the mental stats play in the Fighter. Oh sure you have Intimidate and Bluff and those can be useful, but intelligence doesn't seem to play any role in making you a better fighter. If I were going to add one thing to the Fighter issue it's that there should be a skill called Tactics, and it's based on intelligence, and when you're in the middle of a fight you can role a Tactics check to see if there's any strategies available to your character.

Another thing that bugs me is the Leadership abilities in this game. Really? The level 2 aristocrat can lead an entire empire from his throne, but I gotta wait till around level 5 to start inspiring people? There should an overhaul to the leadership aspect of this game.

sparkletwist · February 09, 2016, 04:04:41 PM

There are two ways to "fix" feats, in my opinion: either buff up a bunch of questionable feats, or just reorganize the game so that everybody gets more feats. They aren't mutually exclusive, of course. Pathfinder itself kind of tried to do both, but didn't go nearly far enough, I think. The first method is what I did some of in Underdepths, and the nice thing is that it works well within the existing game structure; the downside is that it is probably a lot of work to do it comprehensively. The second method allows many feats to be used as written, but it requires reworking the game structure and determining how many more feats to give, and determining which feats should be allowable as extra feats-- casters probably shouldn't be able to take their "Extra <grab bag power>" a bunch more times, for example.

For the time being I'll assume we're mostly sticking with the first solution, because it's much easier to do it incrementally.

Quote from: XathanDrawing a weapon is always a free action. Quick Draw now gives you a +2 bonus to attack and damage rolls the first time you draw your weapon in combat.

I actually like drawing a weapon being integrated into the action economy, and I think there's a place for Quick Draw as a special talent. However, right now, Quick Draw is just a feat tax for people who want to throw things. I personally think drawing a weapon should be a move or swift action, and you can draw two light weapons at once. This gives someone with throwing axes or the like the chance to make two attacks consistently, or make four attacks once. Quick Draw as written doesn't say anything about putting weapons away (though it's a common houserule) and I think that should be addressed: essentially, I think the Quick Draw feat should let you be allowed to rearrange what's in your hands at will, from what items you have easily available to you. This would let casters switch out wands and rods whenever, and multiple weapon users change weapons on the fly. I do like the idea that it can surprise people, though, like maybe it grants a +2 attack bonus and also gives Rogues a sneak attack if the enemy isn't expecting you to pull your weapon that fast.

Quote from: XathanRapid Reload is included with Weapon Focus (Crossbows or Bows or Firearms), and Weapon Focus (Crossbows or Bows) is now a prerequisite for Crossbow Mastery

Since you mentioned Weapon Focus, I have to rant about that. It is... an annoying feat. It's annoying because it encourages overspecialization: every warrior is a master of a single weapon, and anyone doing TWF has to have an identical pair, so no daisho or anything like that. It's annoying because it's a feat tax for so many other things, and then those talents get locked down to the single specialized weapon too. And it's annoying because, after all that, it's just a lousy +1 bonus. I'd either make it way more useful, get rid of it as the prerequisite for just about anything, or quite possibly both.

Quote from: XathanIron Will, Great Fortitude, and Lightning Reflexes now include their improved versions.

Another option is to make the bonus scale, so that it effectively moves you from the "Bad" save progression to the "Good" one, or gives you an equivalent even higher bonus if you're already there.

Quote from: XathanToughness also includes some other benefit.

Toughness did get much better in Pathfinder than in 3.5, but it's still a little underwhelming. Maybe it should just give you a bunch of random bonuses that make you feel "tough," like +1 natural armor and +1 to Fortitude saves in addition to extra HP, or something like that. Adding energy resistance is another good idea.

Quote from: Love of AwesomeI hate the lack of synergy that the mental stats play in the Fighter. Oh sure you have Intimidate and Bluff and those can be useful, but intelligence doesn't seem to play any role in making you a better fighter. If I were going to add one thing to the Fighter issue it's that there should be a skill called Tactics, and it's based on intelligence, and when you're in the middle of a fight you can role a Tactics check to see if there's any strategies available to your character.

The problem with that is it makes the fighter dependent on stats he really should be able to dump. I mean, Combat Expertise's requirement of Int 13 is annoying (Combat Expertise is annoying in general, but especially that part of it) so I see absolutely no use in adding to the problem.

Quote from: Love of AwesomeAnother thing that bugs me is the Leadership abilities in this game. Really? The level 2 aristocrat can lead an entire empire from his throne, but I gotta wait till around level 5 to start inspiring people? There should an overhaul to the leadership aspect of this game.

This is a good point but something like that is probably beyond the scope of the comparatively modest fixes we're suggesting here.

Seraph · February 09, 2016, 04:11:05 PM

What if feats in general scaled upwards with your level? For instance, skills like dodge and weapon focus (and so forth) which provide a +1 bonus increase to +2 at level 6, +3 at level 9, +4 at level 12, +5 at level 15, etc.?

Steerpike · February 09, 2016, 04:36:17 PM

Quote from: SeraphWhat if feats in general scaled upwards with your level? For instance, skills like dodge and weapon focus (and so forth) which provide a +1 bonus increase to +2 at level 6, +3 at level 9, +4 at level 12, +5 at level 15, etc.?

The problem with this is a practical rather than theoretical one: you have to remember to update all your feats (probably referring back to them as well) when you level, adding more math to a ruleset that already suffers from an excessive amount of math.

Xathan · February 10, 2016, 12:16:57 AM

QuoteAnother thing that bugs me is the Leadership abilities in this game. Really? The level 2 aristocrat can lead an entire empire from his throne, but I gotta wait till around level 5 to start inspiring people? There should an overhaul to the leadership aspect of this game.

Any thoughts on how you'd like to fix Leadership?

Quote from: sparkletwist
There are two ways to "fix" feats, in my opinion: either buff up a bunch of questionable feats, or just reorganize the game so that everybody gets more feats. They aren't mutually exclusive, of course. Pathfinder itself kind of tried to do both, but didn't go nearly far enough, I think. The first method is what I did some of in Underdepths, and the nice thing is that it works well within the existing game structure; the downside is that it is probably a lot of work to do it comprehensively. The second method allows many feats to be used as written, but it requires reworking the game structure and determining how many more feats to give, and determining which feats should be allowable as extra feats-- casters probably shouldn't be able to take their "Extra <grab bag power>" a bunch more times, for example.

For the time being I'll assume we're mostly sticking with the first solution, because it's much easier to do it incrementally.

Agreed on the last point. And what you did in Underdepths is a huge inspiration for why this thread exists in the first place! That and I love how 5e handled feats, where every single one is much more potent and meaningful. The fact that it would be a lot of work to do comprehensively is why I'm trying to enlist the rest of the CBG in doing this with me, I'll freely admit - I think with all the creativity we have flowing around here, we can make a pretty good dent in it.

QuoteI actually like drawing a weapon being integrated into the action economy, and I think there's a place for Quick Draw as a special talent. However, right now, Quick Draw is just a feat tax for people who want to throw things. I personally think drawing a weapon should be a move or swift action, and you can draw two light weapons at once. This gives someone with throwing axes or the like the chance to make two attacks consistently, or make four attacks once. Quick Draw as written doesn't say anything about putting weapons away (though it's a common houserule) and I think that should be addressed: essentially, I think the Quick Draw feat should let you be allowed to rearrange what's in your hands at will, from what items you have easily available to you. This would let casters switch out wands and rods whenever, and multiple weapon users change weapons on the fly. I do like the idea that it can surprise people, though, like maybe it grants a +2 attack bonus and also gives Rogues a sneak attack if the enemy isn't expecting you to pull your weapon that fast.

I'm liking this - so what I'm reading here is that Quick Draw in your mind would work best as I describe, only instead of the bonus damage you instead get sneak attack damage if you have it and, even if you don't, you get a +2 to attack when you draw a weapon with this feat. Also, it should maybe change drawing from a move action to a swift action, and the baseline is now that drawing a weapon is a move that does not provoke attacks of opportunity (or should it?) and you can draw one weapon per hand? And throwing weapons would allow you to draw two per hand per turn? Should that be baseline or the ability to draw 4 weapons be baked into quick draw?

QuoteSince you mentioned Weapon Focus, I have to rant about that. It is... an annoying feat. It's annoying because it encourages overspecialization: every warrior is a master of a single weapon, and anyone doing TWF has to have an identical pair, so no daisho or anything like that. It's annoying because it's a feat tax for so many other things, and then those talents get locked down to the single specialized weapon too. And it's annoying because, after all that, it's just a lousy +1 bonus. I'd either make it way more useful, get rid of it as the prerequisite for just about anything, or quite possibly both.

I definitely agree that as is it's a weak feat. Do you think it's improved enough by making it apply to an entire weapon group (swords or axes or the like) or do you think it should also be buffed past that - perhaps giving it a +2 to attacks with weapons in that category as opposed to just one, or some other bonus when using weapons in that category?

QuoteAnother option is to make the bonus scale, so that it effectively moves you from the "Bad" save progression to the "Good" one, or gives you an equivalent even higher bonus if you're already there.

I like that too - make it work more like Toughness does for HP, but instead for saves? (Although the problem with scaling is pointed out by Steerpike later on - not sure if adding bookkeeping for Pathfinder is the best idea, although it might work here.)

QuoteToughness did get much better in Pathfinder than in 3.5, but it's still a little underwhelming. Maybe it should just give you a bunch of random bonuses that make you feel "tough," like +1 natural armor and +1 to Fortitude saves in addition to extra HP, or something like that. Adding energy resistance is another good idea.

Oh, Natural Armor, that's a great thing I forgot. Yeah, Toughness just needs a lot more bolted onto it to improve it. I probably would leave off Fort saves as that's already covered by Great Fortitude, and classes that take toughness usually already have the Good Fort progression, but I Love the idea of getting Natural Armor, a bit of Energy Resistance, and perhaps spell resistance, but only against spells that do direct damage to you?

QuoteThe problem with that is it makes the fighter dependent on stats he really should be able to dump. I mean, Combat Expertise's requirement of Int 13 is annoying (Combat Expertise is annoying in general, but especially that part of it) so I see absolutely no use in adding to the problem.

I'm going to second this - Fighters already need good Str, Con, and probably Dex (for AC) and usually should have Wis to make up for their crappy save in that area, adding Int would just be a major burden. Also, I think changes to classes are just a bit outside of what this thread is going to cover - would like to mainly focus on feats here. :)

Quote from: Seraph
What if feats in general scaled upwards with your level? For instance, skills like dodge and weapon focus (and so forth) which provide a +1 bonus increase to +2 at level 6, +3 at level 9, +4 at level 12, +5 at level 15, etc.?

Quote from: Steerpike
The problem with this is a practical rather than theoretical one: you have to remember to update all your feats (probably referring back to them as well) when you level, adding more math to a ruleset that already suffers from an excessive amount of math.

I think Steerpike has a good point here, but scaling does seem interesting...what if it scaled in a different, less mathy way? IE: Dodge provides a flat +1 to AC right now. What if as you level, it provides other bonuses - at level 6, for example, it gives you Uncanny Dodge (or improved Uncanny dodge if you already have it) or Evasion or something similar? Or would that break too much into class abilities? Or maybe at level 6, you can designate a single target as your dodge focus, like how it worked back in 3.5, but against them you get a +3 to AC?

Then again, that might go beyond the depth of what the modest changes we're looking at here do - I like the idea Sparkletwist used for Underdepths of bundling Dodge's benefits into Mobility, since the majority of feats that have dodge as a prereq also already require mobility anyway. (I think there's like a couple that don't, and I doubt anyone would complain about having the benefits of mobility if they wanted one of those feats)

LoA · February 10, 2016, 12:51:05 AM

Quote from: Xathan
QuoteAnother thing that bugs me is the Leadership abilities in this game. Really? The level 2 aristocrat can lead an entire empire from his throne, but I gotta wait till around level 5 to start inspiring people? There should an overhaul to the leadership aspect of this game.

Any thoughts on how you'd like to fix Leadership?

Sure. First off, I think that You should be able to take leadership at first level, but you can only take Cohorts that are a certain percentage beneath your power level, and the number of cohorts you can have is based around how much you can "maintain" them (food, payment, etc). So let's say I was a level one fighter I would only be able to take let's say a few underpowered kobolds under my wing, but when I'm at a higher level, then I can start leading a small band of warriors.

Quote from: sparkletwist

Quote from: Love of AwesomeI hate the lack of synergy that the mental stats play in the Fighter. Oh sure you have Intimidate and Bluff and those can be useful, but intelligence doesn't seem to play any role in making you a better fighter. If I were going to add one thing to the Fighter issue it's that there should be a skill called Tactics, and it's based on intelligence, and when you're in the middle of a fight you can role a Tactics check to see if there's any strategies available to your character.
The problem with that is it makes the fighter dependent on stats he really should be able to dump. I mean, Combat Expertise's requirement of Int 13 is annoying (Combat Expertise is annoying in general, but especially that part of it) so I see absolutely no use in adding to the problem.

Well that's not quite what I meant. I worded poorly and I apologize. What I meant to say is that it should be an option like Weapon Finnesse. Like a feat called Zenned Mind that allows you to use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Dex modifier to use Bows and Arrows.

Xathan · February 10, 2016, 01:06:09 AM

Quote from: Love of Awesome
Quote from: Xathan
QuoteAnother thing that bugs me is the Leadership abilities in this game. Really? The level 2 aristocrat can lead an entire empire from his throne, but I gotta wait till around level 5 to start inspiring people? There should an overhaul to the leadership aspect of this game.

Any thoughts on how you'd like to fix Leadership?

Sure. First off, I think that You should be able to take leadership at first level, but you can only take Cohorts that are a certain percentage beneath your power level, and the number of cohorts you can have is based around how much you can "maintain" them (food, payment, etc). So let's say I was a level one fighter I would only be able to take let's say a few underpowered kobolds under my wing, but when I'm at a higher level, then I can start leading a small band of warriors.

That sounds interesting! I'd love to see you do a write-up for how that would work, because I'm not sure how to pull that off in a balanced way, but you seem to have some solid ideas here. :)

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